God Metals

[CMac716]

My understanding of the God Metals is that it is investiture in solid form.l. it is attributes are determined by which Shard Identity it contains. From what we seen in RoW, changing the identity of the investiture can be done with sound. They remove the Honor from Stormlight and turn it into Anti-Honor.

 

The Ghostbloods in WaT imply this was the key to them simply blanking investiture of identity so anyone could use it. What would happen with blank investiture if you could manifest it physically? What kind of God Metal would that be. And more importantly, can Kelsier now impart a completely different Shards Identity on investiture, say Preservation, and create more Larasium? Or Trellium? Or whatever God Metal or Alloy they want? Or am I way off base on assuming that's what happened with the Lights?

[Master Silver]

So they didn't removed Honor from stormlight they simply inverted the tone. so that when played with honor's tone it would make zero. It is best to think of it as a wave and chart it. When those are opposite they would cancel and you would always get zero. That is what anti-stormlight does. You are correct that the solid state of investiture is a metal.

 

[CMac716]

I get the destructive interference part of anti light and normal light, but before they inverted the tone, they stripped it of any tone in the vacuum chamber. For a time, it was pure investiture with no identity. There's nothing to say they had to give it the anti-stormlight (honor) tone at all. They could have given it any tone they knew

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, CMac716 said:

For a time, it was pure investiture with no identity.

I think this is the flaw in your reasoning. Tone is not synonymous with Identity. And they did not "strip" the tone (it did not have a tone to remove - that was Navani's point), they prevented the light from "hearing and echoing" the tone. RoW Ch 97:

Spoiler

“I believe this is the only way to completely separate Voidlight from the songs of Roshar,” Navani explained. “There can be no sound in a vacuum, as there is no air to transfer the waves. So as this gemstone ejects Voidlight, I’m hoping the Light will not be able to ‘hear’ Odium’s rhythm—for the first time in its existence.”

“You think it doesn’t emit the rhythm itself,” Raboniel said, “but echoes it. Picks it up.”

“Like spren pick up mannerisms from humans,” Navani said. “Or how a piece of metal can be magnetized by touching a magnet over a long period of time.”

“Ingenious,” Raboniel whispered.

“We’ll see,” Navani said.

Identity is a Spiritual Realm Property (such as when Shallan reclaims Drehy's Stormlight from the lashing by mimicing Drehy's Identity) and Tone/Rhythm is a property that is expressed in the Physical Realm (or more, insufficient data). That Stormlight still had Honor's Tone and Rhythm, while expressing Drehy's Identity until rekeyed to Shallan.

Separating the Investiture from the SR echo of it's tone does not change the Light into unkeyed investiture (it still looked like voidlight, and likely would still power Voidlight Fabrials but not Stormlight Fabrials) and we do not know how Unkeyed Dor was unkeyed. Unkeyed Investiture would still be the same Shardic Investiture as it began, and would still create the same Godmetal - e. g.  Unkeyed Dor is still Dor and would create Dor's Godmetal (An alloy or Skaium and Aonium).

Hope that helps.

[LockDown Ammo he/him]

On 2/5/2025 at 5:33 PM, Treamayne said:

And they did not "strip" the tone (it did not have a tone to remove - that was Navani's point), they prevented the light from "hearing and echoing" the tone.

Ok so this is a little off-topic. But the tone is something that echoes throughout Roshar in Physical Realm right? Like the Singers and all can also hear it. Also that is only why keeping it in a vacuum also works. So if it were to taken off-world like Gavilar and Ghostbloods were planning (lets forget the Connection problems for a second) so it would not be able to hear the tones as it is not on Roshar. So it should not be able to echo it right?

 

Also what would happen if we were to make it hear some other tone like say Odium's in such a case. Would it create Warlight or Voidlight? (I don't think either but wanted to ask) So would it change it's tone? Or the most you can do is change the phase difference as it is essentially echoing the same tone back just different phase and it can't echo another tone?

 

Also would it possible to make Harmonium stop hearing Harmony's pure tone and then play Preservation and Ruin's tone seperately to divide it into Lerasium and Atium as we saw it could split into 2 and each individual should be able to echo the tone of their respective Shards.

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, LockDown Ammo said:

But the tone is something that echoes throughout Roshar in Physical Realm right?

I doubt this is correct. Singers are connecting to Rhythms from the Spiritual Realm, which is why they can all be in-sync on the same rhythm regardless of distance. Likewise, Seons get rhythms and communicate through the Spiritual Realm, and Seekers here Rhyhtms of investiture from the SR as well. I think that the vacuum prevented the light from echoing the Rhythm because of Navani's Intent for that separation to happen, and because the vacuum ensured it did not have a medium to express an echoed rhythm.

20 minutes ago, LockDown Ammo said:

make it hear some other tone like say Odium's in such a case. Would it create Warlight or Voidlight?

Since you didn't specify, I'm going to guess you mean to be starting with Stormlight? I don't think it could become either Warlight or Voidlight. Unkeyed Dor is still Dor (just Unkeyed so it can fuel non-Sel MoIs). Stormlight, uncoupled from its Rhythm won't stop being Stormlight, and would require a mix to become Warlight (both Rhythms, altered and harmonious) and could not change forms to Voidlight.

27 minutes ago, LockDown Ammo said:

the most you can do is change the phase difference as it is essentially echoing the same tone back just different phase and it can't echo another tone?

This seems most likely, at least based on current known information.

29 minutes ago, LockDown Ammo said:

Also would it possible to make Harmonium stop hearing Harmony's pure tone and then play Preservation and Ruin's tone seperately to divide it into Lerasium and Atium

You are assuming Harmony has a single "pure tone." Harmonium is unstable because Ruin and Preservation are not balanced and stable for Sazed. We see this as far back as Hero of Ages, when Sazed specifically expresses the intent to keep them separate, but working together, rather than having the Intent of combining them into a single force.

My guess is that, Realmatically, that's at leat partially because the Tones of Preservation and Ruin haven't shifted to match the way Warlight does (making a harmonius whole, rather than two competing parts). My guess is that Harmonium was able to be separated because the Tones of Ruin and Preservation are still present and separate within Harmonium, all Wax did was find a way to separate the physical component the way it's Spiritual Nature was already divided.

Spoiler

HoA Ch 82:

Quote

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it.

We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

WoB:

Quote

Ironeyes

So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.

Ironeyes

So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, and...

Ironeyes

So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.

Brandon Sanderson

Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial.

Ironeyes

So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

Good discussion.

[CMac716]

Much like running a magnet over a piece of metal, I think that the Tone picked up becomes part of the investiture. Yes, they resonate with the tones once they hold them because that's another way that sound waves work. Hold a tuning fork and play the note, the fork will vibrate. Hit the fork, it'll play the note. That note is still part of what that tuning fork is regardless of if it's echoing something else or being used itself.

 

The more I reread the series the more convinced I am that tone is the Identity and the rhythm is the Intent. Hearing the Tone instantly tells people who it belongs to and the moment Odium gained a new Vessel, his Tone changed. The Well emitted Preservations Tone too.  Side note, there are 4 tones on Roshar, so either Ado left enough of himself there or there's another Shard hiding out.

 

The singers constantly talk about the Rythms altering their mental state. It makes them more prone to the Intent that comes along with that Rythm. Hum Peace, you're more chill. Anticipation makes you anxious for stuff to happen. Bronze burners hear the rhythms and tones. Copper clouds stifle them. Brass broadcasts the rhythm and zinc plays the inverse, both result in altered mental states for those around because it changes the person's Intent to try and match it. The best visual I can come up with would be those videos with a bunch of metronome started at different times eventually synching up. 

 

Yes, investiture can come in different states, but that's not indicative of which Shard controls it. Dor is one of the liquid forms. Stormlight and the Mists are gaseous forms. All Godmetals are solid forms. The fact that any and all of them can become solid should be a clue towards them being able to change states. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, CMac716 said:

The more I reread the series the more convinced I am that tone is the Identity and the rhythm is the Intent. Hearing the Tone instantly tells people who it belongs to and the moment Odium gained a new Vessel, his Tone changed. The Well emitted Preservations Tone too.  Side note, there are 4 tones on Roshar, so either Ado left enough of himself there or there's another Shard hiding out.

 

The singers constantly talk about the Rythms altering their mental state. It makes them more prone to the Intent that comes along with that Rythm. Hum Peace, you're more chill. Anticipation makes you anxious for stuff to happen. Bronze burners hear the rhythms and tones. Copper clouds stifle them. Brass broadcasts the rhythm and zinc plays the inverse, both result in altered mental states for those around because it changes the person's Intent to try and match it. The best visual I can come up with would be those videos with a bunch of metronome started at different times eventually synching up. 

I think that Identity could be considered something of an individualized Rhythm or Tone. I've explored this topic more here if you're interested. 

[CMac716]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that Identity could be considered something of an individualized Rhythm or Tone. I've explored this topic more here if you're interested. 

It's like a note and a beat. To specify, the Pure Tones are the Shards Identity. Every person has their own tone, but the ones that matter significantly belong to the Shards. The Rhythm is when, and with what intensity, a tone is played. Look up some images for music theory diagrams, they're pretty interesting in context of the Cosmere. Specifically, transformative music theory and the circle of fifths

Edited February 9, 2025 by CMac716

[AlmightyGir]

I wonder if you made bars of each Godmetal, and then struck them, would they "hum" with their respective tones?

[Trusk'our he/him]

11 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

I wonder if you made bars of each Godmetal, and then struck them, would they "hum" with their respective tones?

It doesn't seem so, though that would've been cool.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482-youtube-spoiler-stream-3/#e15275

Ghost2352

Would striking a chime or bell made of a God Metal produce a similar note to that God Metal's corresponding tone?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily.