Cool Dalinar shadow spirit world stuff.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

So, at the very end, we learn that Odium found a version of Dalinar, the “Blackthorn”. An evil, war hungry monster.

But more importantly, an Honor aligned monster, as well as a Retribution aligned monster.

Before this, we learn that Honor created a consciousness for Tanavast right after abandoning him and Odium killing him.

In the Dalinar situation, Honor left Dalinar and Odium immediately killed him… very similar to what happened to Tanavast and stemming from the same debate.

But there are some key differences. Dalinar, in this situation, left Honor - even after Honor offered to forgive him. Honor likes Dalinar. Honor has had all the time in the world to watch him, and wants Dalinar back.

The Blackthorn did not disappear after Retribution was forged, so it is not of Stormlight. But it could be of Warlight - Honor wished to give Dalinar the same thing they gave Tanavast, but became part of Taravangian before it could. So it recreated Dalinar, but the part of him that it most agreed with. The hateful though oath abiding monster that burnt the Rift.

So I think the Blackthorn is a result of Taravangian’s power already acting autonomously. Already straining against Taravangian, and exposing weakness that even Dalinar thought would take decades to even start to show.

This is just a stray thought, so… I’m accepting (constructive, please) criticism.

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

The Blackthorn did not disappear after Retribution was forged, so it is not of Stormlight.

The new Oathpact protected the spren from reabsorption. Taravangian refers to the Blackthorn thing as a spren.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

Just now, Nitpicking said:

The new Oathpact protected the spren from reabsorption. Taravangian refers to the Blackthorn thing as a spren.

Mmmmmhmmmmm true. But the rest still stands, yes?

[AlmightyGir]

3 hours ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

In the Dalinar situation, Honor left Dalinar and Odium immediately killed him… very similar to what happened to Tanavast and stemming from the same debate.

That's not what happened...

Honor left Dalinar, and while Big T was gathering the shard, the storm whipped up. Dalinar managed to save Gavinor before he died, and he died to rocks to the head, rather than being vapourised by the power in the same manner as Tanavast and Hoid.

You could say Big T killed Dalinar, but it was almost entirely by accident, or simply coincidental, as it was the result of the storm rising rather than a direct act from Big T.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

1 minute ago, AlmightyGir said:

That's not what happened...

Honor left Dalinar, and while Big T was gathering the shard, the storm whipped up. Dalinar managed to save Gavinor before he died, and he died to rocks to the head, rather than being vapourised by the power in the same manner as Tanavast and Hoid.

You could say Big T killed Dalinar, but it was almost entirely by accident, or simply coincidental, as it was the result of the storm rising rather than a direct act from Big T.

Do you think it was distinct for Honor though? The storm was of them, part of them. The power of Honor does not try to differentiate.

[AlmightyGir]

23 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Do you think it was distinct for Honor though? The storm was of them, part of them. The power of Honor does not try to differentiate.

Pretty distinct, in that Honor vapourized Tanavast.

[coolsnow7]

6 hours ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

But more importantly, an Honor aligned monster, as well as a Retribution aligned monster.

 

I don’t know why you say this? The Blackthorn circa the Rift was hardly Honor aligned. His Cultivation “pruning” had not taken place and he was as saturated with the Thrill as he’d ever be. If anything, he was strictly Odium aligned.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

Just now, coolsnow7 said:

I don’t know why you say this? The Blackthorn circa the Rift was hardly Honor aligned. His Cultivation “pruning” had not taken place and he was as saturated with the Thrill as he’d ever be. If anything, he was strictly Odium aligned.

Honor did not mind death. Honor doesn’t mind Odium. Death and Odium were perfectly fine, as long as oaths were upheld.

It just so happens that the event that made Dalinar infamous was “retribution” for a broken oath. The leader of the Rift had lied to Dalinar multiple times, and Dalinar was rectifying the lie.

[Treamayne]

Also, the destruction of Rathalas was Dalinar fulfilling an "oath." OB CH 71:

Spoiler

“Have I ever lost a battle, Tanalan?” Dalinar asked softly. “You know my reputation. Do you think it exaggerated?”

The younger man shifted, looking over his shoulder toward where he had left his guards and advisors. When he looked back, he was more resolved. “Better to die trying to bring you down than to surrender.”

“You’d better be sure of that,” Dalinar said. “Because if I win here, I’m going to have to make an example. I’ll break you, Tanalan. Your sorry, weeping city will be held up before all who would defy my brother. Be absolutely certain you want to fight me, because once this starts, I will be forced to leave only widows and corpses to populate the Rift.”

He told Tanalan, up front at the start of their conversation, that if he tried killing Dalinar he would destroy the Rift.

He did.

[Ripheus23]

Oh, man, imagine the Blackthorn shadow becoming the Everstormfather or something  like being the huge terrifying face in the sky and all that.

[Treamayne]

Personally, I think the Threat of Spren!Blackthorn is a bit overexpected by most discussion I have seen so far. It's important to rememeber that throughout most of the Dalinar Flashbacks in Oathbringer, much of the Blackthorn's rep was built upon The Thrill - which is also not available right now.

Blackthorn without the Thrill is still a great warrior, but not likely to be the "kills entire battlefield" threat he was at his height (e. g. OB Ch 26 - battle vs Kalanor)

[Ripheus23]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Personally, I think the Threat of Spren!Blackthorn is a bit overexpected by most discussion I have seen so far. It's important to rememeber that throughout most of the Dalinar Flashbacks in Oathbringer, much of the Blackthorn's rep was built upon The Thrill - which is also not available right now.

Blackthorn without the Thrill is still a great warrior, but not likely to be the "kills entire battlefield" threat he was at his height (e. g. OB Ch 26 - battle vs Kalanor)

Unless he ends up in like Crystal-eyed Kelsier mode, maybe he would be more a more symbolic presence? Or did W&T say that Retribution fully incarnated the Cognitive Shadow or whatever? If there's supposed to be some symmetry when it comes to scenes from the front half, in the back half, I wonder about there being a major scene of some kind where the Blackthorn image resonates, on some level, with what Dalinar did in OB? So, something in book 8, I mean. But like at the beginning of OB, if it's that much mirrored?

For example, if they had to go to the Spiritual Realm again, to chat with Nohadon for some lore/clues again or something, maybe the shadow would intervene and mess up the vision, like by killing Nohadon. Maybe the peculiar aspect of visions of Nohadon would continue into the future beforehand, but as a build-up to a scene where the Blackthorn takes this comfort from the protagonists.* Or if there was a Stormfather symmetry going on, maybe it would be in that the Blackthorn could impose/manipulate Spiritual visions, on some people some of the time.

I mean, Dalinar and Navani's wedding was early in OB, was a big scene, the Stormfather officiated and all that. So, we'll need a Navani awakening scene of some kind, could even be the recurring prologue scene (if there is one of those), and the Blackthorn interfering could be dramatic. Like maybe Retribution sends the being to try to trick or be cruel to Navani, as a tactic in dealing with the resistance of the Tower and the Sibling, etc.

*EDIT: reasoning: why/how did Odium zap Dalinar's copy of WoK during the OB battle? For some reason, that scene has always/since seemed to have some esoteric value, in my eyes. But so by killing the oracle of Nohadon in the Spiritual Realm, symbolically, the Blackthorn would recapitulate Odium's destruction of Dalinar's copy of the book that Nohadon wrote.

Edited January 5, 2025 by Ripheus23