The Ovenpact

[boolamoo]

Blitzed through WaT and now doing the relisten. At the beginning, we see Navani trying to compromise with The Sibling by domesticating flamespren in an oven and convincing them to go in and out of modern fabrials. Is this foreshadowing to how we'll see the Oathpact evolve to swap people in and out of the burden to help relieve the strain on 10 people to spread it over many?

Edited December 31, 2024 by boolamoo

[alder24]

19 hours ago, boolamoo said:

Blitzed through WaT and now doing the relisten. At the beginning, we see Navani trying to compromise with The Sibling by domesticating flamespren in an oven and convincing them to go in and out of modern fabrials. Is this foreshadowing to how we'll see the Oathpact evolve to swap people in and out of the burden to help relieve the strain on 10 people to spread it over many?

There is no need for this anymore as Heralds' minds are safe from torture in the Spiritual Realm vision, where time flows faster than on Roshar. 

[Treamayne]

On 12/31/2024 at 1:00 PM, boolamoo said:

Blitzed through WaT and now doing the relisten. At the beginning, we see Navani trying to compromise with The Sibling by domesticating flamespren in an oven and convincing them to go in and out of modern fabrials. Is this foreshadowing to how we'll see the Oathpact evolve to swap people in and out of the burden to help relieve the strain on 10 people to spread it over many?

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

There is no need for this anymore as Heralds' minds are safe from torture in the Spiritual Realm vision, where time flows faster than on Roshar. 

And, at this point, there isn't even confirmation that the Heralds would be tortured anymore (they assume yes, but they don;t know anything that happened outside of Shinovar the last day or two). Originally, the Fused souls and Voidspren would torture the Heralds' Souls to convince them to allow a Return. There are no more returns, We don't even know if Fused return to Braize now that they have all been released (since the a reborn with the Everstorm) and, if they did, there still would be no reason to torture because in 1-8 days they would come back anyway - the Heralds are not stopping that.

My understanding is that the new Oathpact was about protectign the Spren, not holding back Fused - but if the Fused are not on Braize, who would be torturing the Heralds anyway?

 

[alder24]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

but if the Fused are not on Braize, who would be torturing the Heralds anyway?

There are still Fuse on Braize - Chana was captured by Fused who haven't returned to Roshar yet. Also, many Fused are insane and adore causing pain - they would torture Heralds just for the sake of it even if they can't get anything out of them. But yes, I don't think that the new Oathpact prevents Fused from returning to Roshar. It's possible it might slow them down (as every Herald who died before others go to Braize slowed down Fused Return to Roshar), but it shouldn't matter anymore. 

[boolamoo]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

There are no more returns, We don't even know if Fused return to Braize now that they have all been released (since the a reborn with the Everstorm) and, if they did, there still would be no reason to torture because in 1-8 days they would come back anyway - the Heralds are not stopping that.

My understanding is that the new Oathpact was about protectign the Spren, not holding back Fused - but if the Fused are not on Braize, who would be torturing the Heralds anyway?

 

I get that they're not on Braize being tortured anymore, but do we really think the Oathpact and position of Herald doesn't carry weight anymore? It wouldn't have been a sacrifice on Kal's part if not. Also, they specifically say they'll take a few months to heal, but they will return to fight. There will be at least one more Return. But just as Bridge Four was Kaladin's "one more try" I doubt this Return will truly be the end of the Oathpact.

On 1/1/2025 at 8:07 AM, alder24 said:

There is no need for this anymore as Heralds' minds are safe from torture in the Spiritual Realm vision, where time flows faster than on Roshar. 

1. I don't think we know that they're in the SR. They could be on a renewed Alaswha. They used to go to Braize, not the SR.

2. Time is slower where they are. Months to Roshar's years and Cosmere's decades.

[Treamayne]

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Chana was captured by Fused who haven't returned to Roshar yet.

Chana was captured and tortured by Fused who had not returned yet - but the implication was that with the return of the Focused Ones all of the Brands have now Returned. 

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

many Fused are insane and adore causing pain

No Argument there

11 minutes ago, boolamoo said:

do we really think the Oathpact and position of Herald doesn't carry weight anymore?

I did not say or imply that the position of Herald no longer carried weight. I am just questioning the assumption that the torture would continue since the reason for the torture should no longer apply. I have not yet drawn conclusions, I am trying to open avenues for discussion - because something about that ending does not make sense unless part of the discussion was skipped (for the reader) or it is based on assumptions derived from past experience that may no longer hold true. 

[alder24]

32 minutes ago, boolamoo said:

1. I don't think we know that they're in the SR. They could be on a renewed Alaswha. They used to go to Braize, not the SR.

We know it's a vision like Dalinar had experienced and those are happening in the SR. Ashyn is still inhabitable on the surface and it was said their souls still returned to Braize - quote below.

32 minutes ago, boolamoo said:

2. Time is slower where they are. Months to Roshar's years and Cosmere's decades.

Faster. They will experience Rosharan years in just a few months. WaT ch 144:

Quote

“I have studied the Stormfather’s visions,” Ishar explained. “The Wind has suggested that I create something similar. Though our souls will return to Braize, our minds are separate—and I can place them inside a vision, freed from whatever our souls or bodies might feel. With delicacy, this can be hidden from the Shards. I think I can do it, if Ash and Pralla help.” Nale rushed back to Ishar, taking him by the arm.
“You mean…?”
“We could perhaps have peace between Returns,” Ishar said. “Instead of torture. Retribution will certainly seek vengeance against us if we bind him, and will attempt to make us break the pact, but if he cannot find our minds…”

WaT Postlude:

Quote

“Ishar says … says that with the merging of Honor and Odium … things are odd. An unexpected warping of time has happened, so it will pass strangely for us. More strangely even than what is happening on Roshar. While years pass there, months will pass for us. We have time, for once, and peace.”

 

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Chana was captured and tortured by Fused who had not returned yet - but the implication was that with the return of the Focused Ones all of the Brands have now Returned. 

Brands yes, but not individuals. The Focused Ones appeared in the book before Chana was found.

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I am just questioning the assumption that the torture would continue since the reason for the torture should no longer apply.

Look at the quote above. They still expected to be tortured as they knew Retribution would want to force them to break this new Oathpact. It's not about releasing Fused and allowing them on Roshar anymore, it's about releasing protection of spren this time. 

Edited January 2, 2025 by alder24

[Asininity]

On 1/1/2025 at 2:07 PM, alder24 said:

There is no need for this anymore as Heralds' minds are safe from torture in the Spiritual Realm vision, where time flows faster than on Roshar. 

Maybe I missed something but Heralds are still tortured? They exist on 3 planes simultaneously and new improved version of the Oathpact shields their minds from mental anguish. They still feel physical/spiritual pain? I can't wrap my head around the mechanics. If Brandon goes with real world anesthetics theory, this could go horribly for them.

They have some time to recover from millennia of trauma but it not permament? And Fused still have a valid reason to force them to break the pact - Retribution wants Honor splinters (both Heralds and Spren) back

[Leuthie]

38 minutes ago, Asininity said:

Maybe I missed something but Heralds are still tortured? They exist on 3 planes simultaneously and new improved version of the Oathpact shields their minds from mental anguish. They still feel physical/spiritual pain? I can't wrap my head around the mechanics. If Brandon goes with real world anesthetics theory, this could go horribly for them.

They have some time to recover from millennia of trauma but it not permament? And Fused still have a valid reason to force them to break the pact - Retribution wants Honor splinters (both Heralds and Spren) back

Their bodies are regenerated via the power Honor, which the new Oathpact safeguards. Whatever is done to their bodies is irrelevant. Their souls can't be touched. 

The problem with torture was always in their minds. Hence why Taln never once broke. He was able to separate his mind from what his body was enduring. The new situation removes the mind from the body. Think Dalinar's body being in the Physical Realm while his mind was experience Stormfather curated stories in Way of Kings. 100% sure Ishar got the idea from the mechanics of those visions.

In short, it doesn't matter what the Fused do to the Herald's bodies on Braize. They'll always be rebuilt to normal. Being detached from the pain inflicted allows the minds to stay whole and unaffected. So when they Return, they don't even know their bodies were being tortured.

[Asininity]

@Leuthie
Braize characteristic is drawing Souls and that's the part of Heralds that is being transported to be tortured. Only the Cognitive part of the Herald will be locked inside vision. That leaves Soul exposed to the torture as well but with time distortion they will have time to cope.

I'm totally guessing here, since mechanics of magical mental illness are not really clear to me.

The thing i mentioned about anesthesia is you need multiple vectors of action to make it effective. There's ton of research on the subject and I'm no doctor but remember reading about how only forgetting the pain (yes - some anesthetics did work like that) was not enough and patients were negatively impacted, resulting in either death or long term consequences due to stress.

[QuantumAce]

2 hours ago, Asininity said:

Maybe I missed something but Heralds are still tortured? They exist on 3 planes simultaneously and new improved version of the Oathpact shields their minds from mental anguish. They still feel physical/spiritual pain? I can't wrap my head around the mechanics.

This has been at the top of my Stormlight gripe list for a long time. I just need to understand the mechanics of the Oathpact. Its not necessary to enjoy the story, but it has been dangled for so long that grown into a compulsion. I don't care if book 6 is written as a musical performed by Lift clones recapping the last 10 years, as long as they include a simple description of the mechanics of the Oathpact. 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Asininity said:

Maybe I missed something but Heralds are still tortured? They exist on 3 planes simultaneously and new improved version of the Oathpact shields their minds from mental anguish. They still feel physical/spiritual pain? I can't wrap my head around the mechanics. 

20 minutes ago, Asininity said:

Braize characteristic is drawing Souls and that's the part of Heralds that is being transported to be tortured. Only the Cognitive part of the Herald will be locked inside vision. That leaves Soul exposed to the torture as well but with time distortion they will have time to cope.

On Braize, Heralds always existed without physical bodies. Now their souls are still on Braize, but their minds are separated from them in the Spiritual Realm vision. This means that it doesn't matter what will be happening to their souls, their minds can't feel it and therefore torture became ineffective against them. Their souls are regenerated by the mechanics of being a Cognitive Shadow and their Connection to Honor so torture can't leave a permament damage on their soul. It's their minds that were always affected by it. So while Retribution would love to torture them and force them to break the Oathpact, it won't affect Heralds at all. 

Edited January 2, 2025 by alder24

[Asininity]

@alder24
Ok, I've had to dig through Coppermind to get a better understanding and I'm not entirely convinced. While they they wont be able to process the pain, it's still there and that might be significant.

I'm coming with assumption that Soul takes precedence over both Mind and Body (which is also on Braize and includes brain and all the chemistry).
There are multiple ways to alter (damage or repair) Spiritweb - physical and emotional trauma, graft of investiture, hemalurgy, shardblade and altering perception of self. Heralds are shielded only from the emotional damage and can heal through changing Perception of who they are. But will not take effect until Mind and Soul are reconnected, right? Meaning they can prepare and practice dealing with pain, but will actually feel it only once they return. Spiritual Ideal will still be hurt and try to "overwrite" the Mind.

So in essence they have peace between Returns but will get tortured during them?

There remains the question of what kind of torture Soul can be subjected to and I would not diminish Taravangian creativity in this aspect.

[QuantumAce]

17 hours ago, Asininity said:

I'm coming with assumption that Soul takes precedence over both Mind and Body (which is also on Braize and includes brain and all the chemistry).
There are multiple ways to alter (damage or repair) Spiritweb - physical and emotional trauma, graft of investiture, hemalurgy, shardblade and altering perception of self.

But do they have a physical body on Braize? @alder24 has presented a compelling argument that they did not have a physical body on Braize, only the soul in the Cognitive Realm. But I am still unclear how their souls manifest on Braize and how they are tortured. 

17 hours ago, Asininity said:

Heralds are shielded only from the emotional damage and can heal through changing Perception of who they are. But will not take effect until Mind and Soul are reconnected, right? Meaning they can prepare and practice dealing with pain, but will actually feel it only once they return. Spiritual Ideal will still be hurt and try to "overwrite" the Mind.

Unless having the mind protected in the newly opened Spiritual Realm Retreat and Spa Center also protects the herald's spiritual ideal. 

[Asininity]

@QuantumAce
I was thrown off by Ishar saying "freed from whatever our souls or bodies might feel" and some WoB about gravitating toward biggest part of self.
Reading it again, I take it back.
It's clearly explained that bodies are only used on Roshar, original stays behind and they use "bodies of power" during Returns.

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Asininity said:

There are multiple ways to alter (damage or repair) Spiritweb - physical and emotional trauma, graft of investiture, hemalurgy, shardblade and altering perception of self. Heralds are shielded only from the emotional damage and can heal through changing Perception of who they are. But will not take effect until Mind and Soul are reconnected, right? Meaning they can prepare and practice dealing with pain, but will actually feel it only once they return. Spiritual Ideal will still be hurt and try to "overwrite" the Mind.

No, their perception of self is still written in their Spirit Web and they will always be healing to match that image, no matter if they're conscious or if their mind is somewhere else (because of the nature of Heralds and their ability to heal which is powered directly from Honor's essence). They will be tortured, they will heal it like they were always doing, but they won't feel it because their mind is somewhere else, just like Dalinar who couldn't feel anything that was happening to his body while he was in a vision. 

Spoiler

Questioner

We know that magical healing has a lot to do with Identity, like Lopen and Rysn. Suppose someone was tapping Identity from an unkeyed metalmind, and then you tried to heal them with any kind of magical healing. What would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Most likely, that person’s perspective of themself is going to filter that unkeyed metalmind, and so what’s going to happen is what would normally happen to that person. In most instances. There are ways to get around that, but the vast majority, that’s what you’re gonna see.

Questioner

And if they were storing Identity instead?

Brandon Sanderson

Then you’re gonna go back to their Cognitive picture of themselves, which is going to be what’s filtering this, how they see themselves. If you knock them unconscious, they can’t see themselves, you’re blanking them of Identity, and things like that. They still, basically, will have… it’s gonna be really hard to get that all separated. The mental picture of themselves still exists on the Spiritual Realm. Remember, Realmatics is based on Plato’s theories of the forms, but your perspective is what’s shaping that. So there’s still gonna be, like, on the Spiritual Realm, there’s gonna be some version of yourself that is deeply influenced by how you view yourself that is going to be what that Investiture is trying to match, it’s trying to bring your body into alignment with that. So you’ve gotta replace that thing if you want it to do something different. Which you can do with Hemalurgy.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

20 hours ago, Asininity said:

There remains the question of what kind of torture Soul can be subjected to and I would not diminish Taravangian creativity in this aspect.

Taravangian can't touch them directly because they are protected by the Oathpact, just like spren are. He needs to use his minions for this.

 

2 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

But do they have a physical body on Braize? @alder24 has presented a compelling argument that they did not have a physical body on Braize, only the soul in the Cognitive Realm. But I am still unclear how their souls manifest on Braize and how they are tortured. 

From everything we know, they don't. Raboniel said that no life exists on the surface of Braize and there are only angry souls there. Ishar also said they have bodies only when they Return, not when they are on Braize. They would probably manifest like Kelsier or spren in Shadesmar - they can still feel pain, and that's how they torture them. RoW ch 89:

Quote

“One instead travels to other worlds through Shadesmar. But again, stay away from Braize. Even if you could get through the barrier storm, the place is barren, devoid of life. Merely a dark sky, endless windswept crags, and a broken landscape. And a lot of souls. A lot of not particularly sane souls.”

WaT ch 145:

Quote

“We use bodies of power when we Return, child,” Ishar said. “No one dies to create us. Honor found such an idea as the Fused abhorrent. Once.”

[Asininity]

On 1/3/2025 at 8:30 PM, alder24 said:

Then you’re gonna go back to their Cognitive picture of themselves, which is going to be what’s filtering this, how they see themselves. If you knock them unconscious, they can’t see themselves, you’re blanking them of Identity, and things like that. They still, basically, will have… it’s gonna be really hard to get that all separated. The mental picture of themselves still exists on the Spiritual Realm. Remember, Realmatics is based on Plato’s theories of the forms, but your perspective is what’s shaping that. So there’s still gonna be, like, on the Spiritual Realm, there’s gonna be some version of yourself that is deeply influenced by how you view yourself that is going to be what that Investiture is trying to match, it’s trying to bring your body into alignment with that. So you’ve gotta replace that thing if you want it to do something different. Which you can do with Hemalurgy.

This still open to interpretation though?
Additionally, the Soul has some ability to shape the Mind:

Quote

Comatose

Kind of a similar question about the Midnight Essence, now that we have seen that crop up in Tress as well as in Stormlight Archive. Is something similar happening with the Midnight Essence? We have also the nightmares, in Yumi, that appear similar, they're also mimicking things.

Brandon Sanderson

So, there's a couple of things getting interwoven here. The actual idea of Midnight Essence is a concept like Lightweaving that predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, that various magic systems are basically "borrowing" a law of the cosmere and creating a parallel effect from the same basis, if that makes any sense.

Yumi is a little distinct from that. It's feeling similar; I would not call it true Midnight Essence. It's an awful lot more like a Lightweaving that has--because Lightweavings can have mass to them, because investiture can have mass to it--so you're looking a little bit more like... imagine a bunch of Stormlight becoming tangible, you can touch it, because of a powerful Lightweaving or something like that. Of course, these things all bleed together because I'm using the same fundamental principles to make them. But, for me, Midnight Essence has this personality that comes prefixed. What the Midnight Mother is making, what you're seeing in the Midnight Sea and things like this, you're gonna get some similar personalities to these things, and not necessarily the same with the nightmares.

Comatose

So it's more of a autonomous-- a Lightweaving that's become autonomous and has kind of broken down a bit?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah...  the problem is it's also got the Cognitive Shadow, right? It's a really invested Cognitive Shadow that is borrowing this Investiture to interact with the world. Because these are their shadows; these are their Cognitive Shadows, all of these people's Cognitive Shadows. But the power is not themselves. Remember, a Cognitive Shadow is a little bit like a fossil, like Vasher describes it. You've got this pattern there, and then the power kind of makes it manifest and be able to interact, and things like that. And, when that personality asserts itself with that power in the right place, you end up with a person that is the shadow running it. But at the same time, you've got this mass of power and energy that the machine is kind of controlling, which pulls back and overrides the personality sometimes. You've got a very weird set of circumstances going on here.

But it was very fun to figure out all the backstory and the behind on it, and get it all working. This one was a little complex, to get these things all working behind the scenes. I like how they turned out. Yumi, if you dig into it, it has both pluses and minuses. The minuses is - from the beta readers and the alpha readers - the ending for non-arcanists was really overwhelming, which is why we have those Hoid scenes where he's like, "Okay, let me explain." It seems pretty obvious, I would expect that this is, like, "Alright, Brandon needs to do better explanations, Hoid's just gonna do it." But, because of all the work I did behind the scenes on Yumi, Yumi matches kind of cosmerological magic system stuff in ways that a lot of the side projects that I do just don't. Yumi is very deeply intertwined and following all of these processes in a way that works really well for me. But it also gets you into where you start to need a master's degree in the cosmere to figure it all out, which is why to make it easier, we have Hoid just spell it out for people. It is a little clunky; I prefer the clunkiness to the previous version where you needed a master's degree in the cosmere to understand even what was going on.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

As I read it, the Mind serves as a filter of Investiture, modifying what is being imprinted onto mental picture of self. But this mental snapshot is "saved" as a part of the Soul, therefor can be tampered with.
Since separation works both ways, Mind is unable to process the pain, but only the filter the filter is removed. 
This will create growing divergence between what was "saved" and how Heralds perceive themselves. And once Cognitive aspect and Spiritweb are reconnected, they will need to be reconciled.

Thinking more about this, I can't imagine separation of soul and perception of self being good for it. Especially for Cognitive Shadow, it will likely lead to deterioration over time, right?