Did book 5 affect your feelings of the whole series?

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

What is plausible and implausible in a world with so much magic is very loose. Hemalurgy seems able to bend forms, and there seems to be plenty of possibilities in the surges for shape shifting with enough meditation. Forgery simply lets a person go from knowing about how those techniques work to using them to create false histories in which their "natural form" is a false imposition that is to be cast off. Think of Zhaung Zi and his butterfly dream, with magic running around, it is not hard to make it seem plausible that the butterfly in fact physically became the man and might elect to return to that form.

In some worlds yes, but large part of Sanderson's writing is that limitations are the interesting thing about magic.

Forgery is limited by the requirement of plausibility of the change.

And changing physical form is different from changing species, e.g. butterfly cannot become a man, because their spirits (in the Cosmere sense) are completely different.

Even changing gender is quite large change for Forgery, and that is just a single facet of individual

Quote

Nazrax

Can Forgery rewrite someone's gender (after all, it's just swapping out an X for a Y ...)?

Brandon Sanderson

Forgery could do this, but it is a tad bigger a change than you imply. Think of it this way: It's much easier for the magic to pretend that a table was cleaned up and polished than it is for the magic to pretend the wood used to make the table instead was used to make a chair.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 12, 2015)

 

3 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

What if some forger gathered in one place a  number of dragons and the means of doing a great deal of hemalurgy. Suppose they discussed with the dragons the procedure of turning a human into a dragon via the use of hemalurgy to remove their humanity and to impose a dragon's nature in its place. This discussion could go on for a while, refining the notions of the technique, figuring how to do it without killing anyone involved, etc, but it is ultimately never done in fact. Then imagine the later making of a soul stamp which says "Ah, but what if I did?" This is a single change in event, one which the user could describe in great detail, and thus must be felt as plausible, yes?

One, I would say that spiking to change species like that is impossible, based on what we know. Spikes move discrete pieces of Investiture, and the changes they do are invasive and if physical, deform the subject. Someone with a e.g. Misting spike is not the same as natural misting, spiritually speaking.

So you couldn't become dragon proper, only spiked facsimile of one.

Such Forgery could be done, provided you did the whole setup in the first place.  But it would likely be very brittle, and if anything acted on those Forged spike, the entirety would break. Plus, you would have to create all those pieces of soul the Hemalurgy would have taken, so you likely would have had to understand the process quite well. At which point the question is why not do it directly then?
And it wouldn't constitute actual change of species, as again, Hemalurgy won't do that.

 

Edited April 1, 2025 by therunner

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Such Forgery could be done, provided you did the whole setup in the first place.  But it would likely be very brittle, and if anything acted on those Forged spike, the entirety would break. Plus, you would have to create all those pieces of soul the Hemalurgy would have taken, so you likely would have had to understand the process quite well. At which point the question is why not do it directly then?
And it wouldn't constitute actual change of species, as again, Hemalurgy won't do that.

Because spiking the dragonness out of a dragon would be cruel if that dragon wanted to remain as such.

Sure, the stamps might need to be reapplied, repaired, and even replaced from time to time, but does the fact Elantrians eat food to maintain their sanity diminish them?

Those who insist on a distinction between true and false dragons in such a world would be as wrongheaded as people who engage in transphobia in ours.

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Because spiking the dragonness out of a dragon would be cruel if that dragon wanted to remain as such.

My point was more that there is not such thing as 'dragonness', species is the entire sum of its parts, there is no single 'specieness' component of spiritweb you could spike out.

So you would have to hack together some facsimile of it, it would never be natural thing.

Being on Shard level can alter spiritwebs to such an extent they form different species (see Kandra or Koloss), but such level of change is like asking human geneticist to design a treatment that will alter human genome to a dog one, that is beyond the scope of any mortal without killing the subject.

5 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Those who insist on a distinction between true and false dragons in such a world would be as wrongheaded as people who engage in transphobia in ours.

Being male/female are natural facet of human biology, so is variety of gender expressions.
And transperson is not fully equivalent to the cisperson, e.g. they have different chromosomes and sex organs (I won't bring intersex people into this discussion), meaning for some medical purposes you have to consider their biological sex, not social/psychological gender. So trans people are distinct from cis people.

That does not make their identity any less valid, but to pretend there is no distinction is simply wrong.

And being a different species is not the same thing, by a long shot. See various 'trans-racial' activists for something far closer to gender, that is already considered to be not valid.

Edited April 1, 2025 by therunner

[agrabes]

On 3/30/2025 at 7:14 AM, ParaTulip said:

This kind of issue has been something that I have been bothered by in the broader cosmere books for a while now too: Revolution is never given the presentation it deserves. Jasnah's reforms make sense to our modern, post-Enlightenment Revolutions, way of thinking. Everywhere in our world has been touched by the flames that were lit in the USA and France in the late 18th century (and I might say the USA only truly knew Enlightenment when the Civil War began), with my understanding being that their burning through in China happened from the fall of the Ming Dynasty through to the Cultural Revolution and in Japan with the Meiji Restoration through to the US Occupation after WWII, and with many more places being subjected to this force we recognize as modernity through the cruel implements of colonialism.

However, people, especially feudal land owners, tend to HATE this kind of revolutionary moment because it tears away their special legal privileges. We saw tiny amounts of this with how the Mistborn books played out after the death of the Lord Ruler, but then the mystical end of the world showed up and seemingly replaced the years of terror that are needed to replace plantation aristocrats with industrialists. Jasnah did, at some point, do the thing of intimidating some noble down, but the actual patterns of history that we know would have her cleaving through thousands of lesser nobles in order to get them to stop acting like they own people. She would have to become a legend as terrible as the Blackthorn, a true Napoleonic figure, in a story which wanted to tackle the hardships that come with the pursuit of liberation.

 

Also, on the moral nuance front more generally: I wish the battles of the book had all been told from the perspectives of Singers. It would have made the "Finally, the singers one! No more desolation!" note of the ending a lot more interesting.

I agree that you're right about what a more realistic response to the kind of reforms Jasnah is proposing would look like.  And, what many revolutionary figures like Robespierre, Lenin, Mao, etc have done in pursuit of their goals.

Though - I couldn't be further from your position on what I'd like to see in the books.  Sometimes violence is necessary and society doesn't get to the point of a revolution without really, really bad things being done by the established order.  But, if we're talking "agrabes ideal fantasy depiction of revolution" here, I'd like to see both sides of the dispute being given legitimate good points and some kind of compromise transition plan being reached.  This is fantasy after all

For example - let's cut from the point in the series where Jasnah murders her political rivals in the name of freedom.  What I would have loved to see is:

All but the most hardcore Kholin supporters turn away from Jasnah due to her actions.  They call out her views as too radical.  When the common people learn of what she did, they turn against her (common reaction in History - rural peasants often sided with the aristocracy at least initially because they don't want radical change.)  We see someone, maybe Aladar, rise up and give speeches about how Jasnah's actions are an abuse of power and no better than the actions of absolute monarchs that she opposes.

There is a real rift in Alethi politics, with major foreign powers picking sides.  All parties remain firmly anti-Odium.  The forces of Anti-Odium reach a crisis moment and nearly lose the war due to their factionalism.  Finally, Jasnah admits she was too stubborn.  Aladar delivers strong arguments about how increased freedom is best for the people, but cannot come at the cost of order and civil society.  Jasnah fires back that if we leave the old aristocracy in place, nothing will change.  Finally they reach a compromise solution that outlines a gradual transition to representative government and the end of serfdom and legal slavery.  

That's probably not realistic either, but it's closer to realistic in the direction that I like haha.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Though - I couldn't be further from your position on what I'd like to see in the books.  Sometimes violence is necessary and society doesn't get to the point of a revolution without really, really bad things being done by the established order.  But, if we're talking "agrabes ideal fantasy depiction of revolution" here, I'd like to see both sides of the dispute being given legitimate good points and some kind of compromise transition plan being reached.  This is fantasy after all

Okay, so I am sorry to jump on you about this but I really want to know:

What do you mean by "This is fantasy after all"?

Edited April 11, 2025 by ParaTulip

[agrabes]

On 4/11/2025 at 11:59 AM, ParaTulip said:

Okay, so I am sorry to jump on you about this but I really want to know:

What do you mean by "This is fantasy after all"?

Ha - nothing too serious.  Just that this is a fantasy novel, so why not make things the way I wish they would happen.

In real world revolutions one of two things tends to happen: either there is a reactionary crackdown and the revolution is defeated or the revolution becomes increasingly more and more radical and violent.  Not always, but most of the time.  

If we're talking in terms of the various revolutions from the 1700s to the 1900s, I'm more of a "constitutional monarchy" type guy - solve the immediate issues and make a path for future improvements.  In a real revolution, I'm the type of guy who gets murdered or exiled after the first year because I don't want to go far enough.

So I guess my fantasy is - what happens if the moderate reformers win the revolution?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 4/11/2025 at 5:52 PM, agrabes said:

I agree that you're right about what a more realistic response to the kind of reforms Jasnah is proposing would look like.  And, what many revolutionary figures like Robespierre, Lenin, Mao, etc have done in pursuit of their goals.

Jasnah is not just a queen. She is also a Radiant. That makes her a figure of religious significance, as well as a factual power, as well as a political power. She can literally turn opponents into dust.
Turning against the Radiants means giving up perfect health care, soulcasting and magical food production. On top of that you'd fight people who can strangle you with your own clothing and turn the air to poison as well as fly.

The politics are thus altered. The very irony is that Jasnah's powers enable her to push through reforms she likes and undermine the ideology behing these reforms.

On 4/11/2025 at 5:52 PM, agrabes said:

All but the most hardcore Kholin supporters turn away from Jasnah due to her actions.  They call out her views as too radical.  When the common people learn of what she did, they turn against her (common reaction in History - rural peasants often sided with the aristocracy at least initially because they don't want radical change.)  We see someone, maybe Aladar, rise up and give speeches about how Jasnah's actions are an abuse of power and no better than the actions of absolute monarchs that she opposes.

Yes that would have happened after the end of the war. Jasnah was saved by defeat. However, in Urithiru rising up against the Radiants means going against the people who control everything.

That leads to an interesting question how you would combine democracy with a state religion taken really seriously.

[Honors Spectral Image She/her]

On 12/29/2024 at 12:44 AM, christianrapper said:

For me book 5 dropped this series from being a 9-10 to about a 6.5. I don’t even know that I can recommend Stormlight to anyone anymore with this 8 year break in between books. Book 5 was way too contrived for Todium to get the win. We got to see two radiants take the 5th oath and we didn’t see them do anything. They turned Szeth into a moron for one scene. What was the point in taking the 5th oath and then giving up the bond? That only happened so that Szeth could lose his arm. He could have easily done that after he finished fighting his last fights. 

I personally loved the book I loved the way that szeth freed himself from those oppressing him, I loved Kaladin becoming a herald, and it made me sad but I loved the ending with dalinar because he recognized that odium is hate and you can’t beat hate with more hate and more violence, I also loved taravangian getting the better of jasnah, i loved the way Brandon ended the book with us feeling like we lost but still having won as best we could and it’s gonna be a long wait but im so excited for arch two

[Ink and Embers Any pronouns]

I have mixed feelings on book 5. Parts, I absolutely loved - including the structure. With the exception of the timing of the flashbacks, I thought the choice of pacing was really interesting. I liked the lack of resolution at the end; it made me even more hyped for the back 5. Szeth's character arc was intruded on by Kaladin's, a lot, but I liked Kaladin's enough it didn't really matter. Adolin's arc was generally really cool. Sigzil's was kind of boring and didn't make sense to me. Moash... I feel like he's a great foil to Kaladin. Kaladin. Not Sigzil as well. I thought the Spiritual Realm everything was interesting (Renarin and Rlain!!!! Ah!!!!! I also cried when Rushu started talking about gender), but disliked the whole Chana Davar revelation. In Rhythm of War, with Testament, I was starting to feel like it was a little repetitive, but at least that one felt well foreshadowed.

All in all, I quite liked book 5, and don't think any less of the whole series for it!