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misc questions re: Connection translation & idiomatic / slang terms


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so we’ve seen examples of Connection related translations being literal in a way with phrases and cusses that outs worldhoppers that aren’t Kaise to the reader.

in that vein i’ve had a few minor questions that are somewhat pertinent to that quirk of Connection translation.

- is it a reasonable assumption that i, the reader, can be considered to be reading the text as translated / transliterated from its native tongue into English, and the phrases and terms that don’t make (noncontextual) sense to me would also have that same layer of incomprehension if they were translated via Connection to some other chump’s language?

i realize this is pretty grotesquely worded. maybe an example will help. if a Rosharan used Connection to speak at length with, say, a Scadrian or whatever, i would imagine that Scadrian might have some reaction along the lines of “why does this freak call every bird a chicken” / “what is this crem thing anyways”

basically stuff that happens because of an absence of shared context. like Moonlight in Lost Metal, her name doesn’t really sound off to us, but for Marasi she doesn’t know what a moon is on account of they ain’t got one.

- second question; there’s one example of a term that seems like a mishmash of translation and transliteration, which is the Rosharan pejorative “dunnard”. it’s not an english word, but you can get that it’s comparing the recipient’s intelligence to a dun sphere, thanks to its close similarity to the more familiar “dullard”. are there any more like that? that one was neat to me.

- third question: have we seen “deevy” come out of anyone’s mouth besides Lift’s (and her close acquaintances)? i vaguely feel like Wayne might have said it once but i think i’m just huffing crazy pills on that one. etymologically speaking is it short for “devious” or am i leaping to conclusions there?

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17 minutes ago, Antioch said:
  1. - Is it a reasonable assumption that I, the reader, can be considered to be reading the text as translated / transliterated from its native tongue into English, and the phrases and terms that don’t make (noncontextual) sense to me would also have that same layer of incomprehension if they were translated via Connection to some other chump’s language?
  2. - There’s one example of a term that seems like a mishmash of translation and transliteration, which is the Rosharan pejorative “dunnard”. It’s not an English word, but you can get that it’s [meaning] - comparing the recipient’s intelligence to a dun sphere -thanks to its close similarity to the more familiar “dullard.” 
    Are there any more like that? That one was neat to me.
  3. - Have we seen “deevy” come out of anyone’s mouth besides Lift’s (and her close acquaintances)? I vaguely feel like Wayne might have said it once but I think I’m just huffing crazy pills on that one. Etymologically speaking, is it short for “devious” or am I leaping to conclusions there?

I apologize if this is harsh; but please, for Ado's sake, use capitalization. 

  1. Yes. Please see WoBs Below. You can expect that a malaproprism is retained by the translator to convey the same idiosyncracy as expressed by the characters (so that, for example, it's understandable that Kaladin would be confused by the word bunny)
  2. There are many derived/constructed phrases (such as Lait) and Brandon tries to make derivitive meanings obvious, when possible (such as the one you pointed out). Please see:
  3. Searching SA and ME2, I found no instances of "deevy" in Mistborn (but Wayne does try Chouta), and SA shows Lift, Lopen, and Nightblood as using the term so far. 

WoBs:

Spoiler
Quote

vetemix

How do you reason using such specific historic terms as “Messiah” & “utilitaristic” in Mistborn world?

Brandon Sanderson

What you are talking about is sometimes called the “translation question” in regards to fantasy novels.

The book—and the dialogue—weren’t in English & had to be translated. The translation uses similar English words to the originals.

So when the book uses a word like those, the translator from the original Mistborn language feels it is the closest approximation.

General Twitter 2011 (Nov. 15, 2011)
Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

[Why did Syl use the word "thy" after Kaladin spoke the words of the Third Ideal?]

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because in their language she was using a more antiquated version of their language, and so that's the best English translation.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
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Adrienne

In Well of Ascension, it mentions that the language of Terris had a gender neutral pronoun. If you actually constructed the language, what was that pronoun? Or did you just leave it as its English translation of "it"?

Brandon Sanderson

I didn't spend a long time on the languages in Scadrial, since most people were speaking the same tongue. I just used "it" in my own writings. Roshar has a lot more detail on the languages, because culture-clash is a bigger part of the theme of the series.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)
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ketsugi

I'm not terribly fond of puns in fantasy unless the author expects us to believe that the characters are either speaking English or that the language that they are speaking has exactly the same puns.

Brandon Sanderson

It's neither one. Generally, the authors you're reading are pretending their books are in translation--and are generally providing an appropriate English pun to convey the tone of the scene. It happens in the real world, too. My books are all in English originally. When my translator for the Taiwanese editions, for example, runs across a pun, she often constructs a pun that works in the context in her language. The actual words are different, but the idea of "This character is making a wordplay quip" remains.

ketsugi

Thanks for the reply. One of my favourite things about this subreddit is the interaction with authors.How do you extend this to foreign languages within the world, then? For example, Tolkien's various languages, or the Old Tongue in Wheel of Time. Do we assume that the imaginary translator decided not to translate those phrases? If so, why?Made-up example:

"Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious," Tom muttered under his breath.

As, perhaps, opposed to:

"This is a truly stupendous event," Tom muttered under his breath, in Poppinish.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea is that the imaginary translator (who is basically the author) is trying to preserve the proper tone. Any time one of those phrases is written, the author COULD have just written the translated version. Why didn't they? There are a ton of reasons, but the most likely is to preserve the feeling the characters have in interacting with something they don't understand. This extends to which words we choose to translate even from the world. In Stormlight, I use the word 'havah' for a Vorin dress. Yet I call a coat simply a coat. There's a balance between not overloading the reader and providing setting immersion, and also a distinction between an article of clothing that is meaningful culturally and one that is less so. Being able to make these kinds of decisions is like adding a pinch of exotic spice to your broth, making it a unique and savory experience, and is part of what I love about fantasy over other genres.

General Reddit 2015 (Sept. 8, 2015)
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Only4DNDandCigars

I was reading Elantris, with my passive work being Jorge Luis Borges "Book of Imaginary Beings". The chapters are encyclopedic and short, and are meant to have a kaleidoscope style of reading. With Cosmere on my mind, I can across a really interesting entry:

Sylphs For each of the four roots or elements into which the Greeks divided matter there was a corresponding spirit. In the words of Paracelsus, the sixteenth-century Swiss alchemist and physician, we find four elementary spirits: the Gnomes of the earth, the Nymphs of water, the Salamanders of fire, and the Sylphs or Sylphides of air. The words are Greek origin. Litre has sought the etymology of "sylph" in the Celtic tongues, but it is most unlikely that Paracelsus would have known, or even suspected the existence of, those languages. Today, no one believes in Sylphs, but the phrase "a syphlike figure" is still applied to slender women, as a somewhat cliched compliment. The Sylphs occupy a place between that of material beings and that of immaterial beings. Romantic poetry and the ballet find them useful.

I don't think it is a far stretch or much of projection when I say that reminds me of a certain Spren. Either way, it made my day to come across this while reading.

Brandon Sanderson

If you poke around a bit, you can probably find where the names of some other spren (like Notum) come from. In a lot of their names, I'm looking for something similar to what I did with Syl. My rationale is that if you heard her name in-world (which might not actually be the exact sounds Syl) you'd have the benefit of local traditions, word roots, and mythologies. You'd hear it and say, "Huh, that sounds like a word for wind." So, when the books are "translated" to English, the translator creates names in English that evoke the same feel in readers here.

General Reddit 2018 (Feb. 19, 2018)
Quote

Keoni9

Unless you are using it to describe a method of divination, X-mancy probably does not mean what you think it means. -mancy, from the Greek manteia ("divination") cannot be used to denote the magical manipulation or evocation of something. The root you are looking for is -urgy, from Greek ergon ("work").

Glory2Hypnotoad

But fantasy books get a little leeway here because it's generally understood that English is being used as a proxy for an in-world language, so Greek etymology doesn't necessarily apply.

And Brandon Sanderson's admitted that he knows what mancy means, and calling his magic system in Mistborn allomancy was simply a useful tradeoff.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I talk about this in the annotations, I believe.

Language shifts. I believe this one has shifted far enough inside the target demographic (fantasy readers) that it would not confuse. In fact, I decided it would be MORE clear to use the 'wrong' term than the right one.

I subscribe to a school of writing philosophy which believes that clarity trumps most other concerns, so I chose to do it this way. (Though this was a specific choice for the Mistborn world, where I was attempting to create resonance as an Earth analogue, so used more familiar sounding names for people and terms. Compare to Elantris, where I instead preferred in-world names and terms which might be harder to say/pronounce but added worldbuilding flavor.)

General Reddit 2011 (Aug. 24, 2011)
Quote

Questioner

What's the etymology of "slontze"?

Brandon Sanderson

...This is from the Reckoners series, Steelheart. I wanted a fake Yiddish word. So I, you know, mention things like this, and it's not actually-- I-- It doesn't quite fit, but I wanted something that had the right feel, like that. I don't know why I wanted a fake Yiddish word. That just felt-- So I went through a bunch of Yiddish slang, and that's the word I came up with. So, that's what I do a lot, like "I want the feel of this."

Ad Astra 2017 (May 5, 2017)

 

Hope that helps

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