Disappointed in wat a take back of oathbringer

[bmcclure7]

Not finished with the book so no spoilers 

Im disappointed with WAT as it themes contradict the themes of oathbringer oathbringer was all about accepting responsibility. WAT all about rejecting responsibility by embracing the lie of nuance which is just a secular version of the Devil made me do it. 
I suspect most of you will disagree with me on this and I don’t really care I’m honestly just ranting out of a frustration 

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Im disappointed with WAT as it themes contradict the themes of oathbringer oathbringer was all about accepting responsibility. WAT all about rejecting responsibility by embracing the lie of nuance which is just a secular version of the Devil made me do it. 

Not disagreeing with you. But, I am curious how far you are and if there are any specific examples, so far, that you can share. 

[aetherbound he/him]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Not finished with the book so no spoilers 

Im disappointed with WAT as it themes contradict the themes of oathbringer oathbringer was all about accepting responsibility. WAT all about rejecting responsibility by embracing the lie of nuance which is just a secular version of the Devil made me do it. 
I suspect most of you will disagree with me on this and I don’t really care I’m honestly just ranting out of a frustration 

Finish it before passing judgement, could you maybe explain which parts of WaT you find disappointing?

Edited December 25, 2024 by aetherbound

[Sedside she/her]

On 12/25/2024 at 5:27 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Not finished with the book so no spoilers 

Im disappointed with WAT as it themes contradict the themes of oathbringer oathbringer was all about accepting responsibility. WAT all about rejecting responsibility by embracing the lie of nuance which is just a secular version of the Devil made me do it. 
I suspect most of you will disagree with me on this and I don’t really care I’m honestly just ranting out of a frustration 

Finished the book, even had a couple of weeks to mentally process it already, and I have the same feeling. Not giving any spoilers, I would also even develop your impression a little. It doesn't only give me vibes of rejecting responsibility and embracing the lie of nuance, it also gives me the impression of passing the rejected responsibility to someone else like a hot potato. Like "hey, I don't want to do it, let someone else do it instead of me". And at the same time the "someone else" is put into a position in which they can't reject this responsibility - and they don't reject it. And somehow this is considered right as well.

So for some people it's good to reject responsibility, and for the other people it's bad. What looked like a well structured, wrapped-up moral or philosophical basis of the series turned out to be a huge hypocrisy. In my opinion, of course.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Sedside

[MagicMaggot]

There certainly are some inversions on Oathbreaker's themes, with nuance being part of the exploration of more than one ethical concept, but rejecting responsibility? I'm not seeing that one at all. Indeed, I'd say the importance of accepting responsibility for one's actions is repeadedly reaffirmed in WaT. We're just also moving on to what happens after one did that. 

Edited December 27, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

Finished the book, even had a couple of weeks to mentally process it already, and I have the same feeling. Not giving any spoilers, I would also even develop your impression a little. It doesn't only give me vibes of rejecting responsibility and embracing the lie of nuance, it also gives me the impression of passing the rejected responsibility to someone else like a hot potato. Like "hey, I don't want to do it, let someone else do it instead of me". And at the same time the "someone else" is put into a position in which they can't reject this responsibility - and they don't reject it. And somehow this is considered right as well.

So for some people it's good to reject responsibility, and for the other people it's bad. What looked like a well structured, wrapped-up moral or philosophical basis of the series turned out to be a huge hypocrisy. In my opinion, of course.

If you are referencing Dalinar's decision specifically, then I would just like to point out (Day 10 Spoilers):

Spoiler

To me, the situation is the exact opposite. For four books we have seen Hoid appealing to everybody (Frost, Endowment, Harmony, Autonomy, et al.) for help because mortals cannot fight Shards. Frost replied with "non-intervention is the only reasonable policy" - everyone else (except Sazed) replied with "It's our problem, but as long as he's imprisoned, we don't care." (well Harmony was reasonable. . . )

I had been expecting and hoping for something like this since the Letters in Oathbringer - because if one Shard is murdering Shard Vessels and Splintering their Shards - then the other Shards absolutely have a responsibility beyond "Honor trapped him before dying, so we'll ignore the threat."

Well, now they can no longer ignore the threat.  

TL;DR - my impression wasn't Dalinar ignores responsibity, so much as Dalinar made the people with the responsibility finally step-up. 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Ookla she/her]

21 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

If you are referencing Dalinar's decision specifically, then I would just like to point out (Day 10 Spoilers):

  Hide contents

To me, the situation is the exact opposite. For four books we have seen Hoid appealing to everybody (Frost, Endowment, Harmony, Autonomy, et al.) for help because mortals cannot fight Shards. Frost replied with "non-intervention is the only reasonable policy" - everyone else (except Sazed) replied with "It's our problem, but as long as he's imprisoned, we don't care." (well Harmony was reasonable. . . )

I had been expecting and hoping for something like this since the Letters in Oathbringer - because if one Shard is murdering Shard Vessels and Splintering their Shards - then the other Shards absolutely have a responsibility beyond "Honor trapped him before dying, so we'll ignore the threat."

Well, now they can no longer ignore the threat.  

TL;DR - my impression wasn't Dalinar ignores responsibity, so much as Dalinar made the people with the responsibility finally setp-up. 

I agree. I don't think it's so much that Dalinar is responsible for stopping Odium and doesn't want to be as it is that he's learned more about the Shards and now has a better understanding that they are the only ones who can really stop him--they just need the impetus to actually buckle down and get the job done, and quit ignoring the problem and letting Roshar suffer. In that way, Dalinar's not escaping responsibility, he's fulfilling his responsibility to do the best thing he can for everyone involved, especially his own people on Roshar. And as I recall, he made an oath to the whole Coalition that he'd do his best to do what's right for Roshar as a whole, so in that way he's also doing the most Honorable thing he can. (But I might be remembering wrong, not sure.)

Whatever the case, I certainly didn't feel like there was any major theme of rejecting responsibility in this book--but I'd love to hear some more specific examples and how you interpret them, just to get another perspective.

[Sedside she/her]

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

If you are referencing Dalinar's decision specifically

Not only him, but him as well. I just don't want to discuss anything more specific in this thread, because the topic starter hasn't finished the book.

As for your spoiler tag,

Spoiler

So the explanation to something crucial, that happened in the main climax of the 5th book is in the epigraphs of the other books? Which are in the forms of split letters from dunno-who to dunno-who? I mean, it's okay when you are very cosmere aware, you know about the other Shards and their names and so on, but I don't. I've already expressed what I feel about this growing requirement for cosmere awareness in SA in the "unpopular opinions topic", in short - it bothers me and I don't like it. I want to be able to get the problems from the series without needing to read the other series. I also don't want to be obliged to reread this particual series several times to understand the main climax's meaning. Even though I did reread it like 4 times probably, but whatever, it's more about the smaller details, foreshadowing and so on, but not about the absolutely crucial things like the contest.

Also, in this case the whole terms of the contest are just stupid, and Hoid is also stupid. He was the one writing those letters and receiving those answers, so why didn't he come up with the solution Dalinar had found? In terms of responsibility, Hoid and the other Shards are kind of on equal level (maybe not precisely, but they are beings of approximately same degree), so they can and must deal with each other. Dalinar is much lower then all of them, he is mortal, he doesn't have any power, except for what is granted by his bond, and they decide to hand their responsibility to him, he takes it, but then he again singlehandedly decides to give it back to them? To me it reads like this: my boss comes to me and gives me a task from his boss. I take it, spend time doing it, but in the end I decide to fail it spectacularly just because my boss is the one who will be punished for that and will have to fix my mistakes. It doesn't matter if later it turns out that my boss tried to involve his collegues in this and they refused, he gave the task to me, and I agreed to do it. If he came to me and said "look, I am trying to bring my colleagues to their senses, but I can't handle this alone, help me do it", it would be different. But now it reads like Shards throw this potato to Hoid, Hoid throws it to Dalinar, Dalinar throws it back to Shards. Noone in this chain is taking their responsibility willingly. They are put into positions where they have no choice. The only one who accepted the responsibility willingly is Dalinar, but he agreed to the Contest of Champions with set terms and in order to save Roshar. Then he went to SR, found out something nasty about Honor and other Shards and decided that he now has a good reason to stop dancing to their tunes.

Also, I understand that it's not only in epigraphs, it's in SR as well, but again, I don't find it written well. To me it reads not like a solution, but like an excuse to oblige someone else to look for the solution.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

I just don't want to discuss anything more specific in this thread, because the topic starter hasn't finished the book.

Copy all. I'm sorry. It's difficult-to-impossible to un-know something (which is why spoilers being handled properly is so important) so I failed to look at the situation from a Roshar-only perspective. And you are right, from the first interlude of the first book (WoK I-1) SA has been the series with the most off-world references and interference. Other series are easy to read solo, but SA grows more and more reference-heavy and, eventually, what used to be Easter Eggs becomes required knowledge.

[MagicMaggot]

As strange as I find it to put spoilers on WaT-spoilers in the WaT-spoiler board...

 

Spoiler

5 hours ago, Sedside said:

Also, in this case the whole terms of the contest are just stupid and Hoid is also stupid.

I agree. And WaT wasn't exactly subtle about it, with both Taravangian and Dalinar coming to the realization that there really was no losing condition for Todium in the contest around day 7 or 8. And I agree that that was a strange writing decision to undermine the highlight moment that had been teased for quite some while that much. People who picked up on it being useless weren't really invested in the contest itself, and those who didn't probably had some good reason for being disappointed when it came down to "actually, it was a stupid idea in the first place". I think it's a totally fair criticism to say that the contest should have been about the contest, and not the cosmere. 

I also agree that Hoid certainly should have seen that, so yeah, he is either uncharacteristically stupid in assuming a shard that is all about conflict couldn't provoke it at will, or he was deliberately holding that knowledge back from the others, maybe because at this point there wasn't much that could be done about it, in his estimation.
Though we already knew that his priorities weren't necessary those of Roshar, and he said quite openly that he'd rather see Roshar suffer than Odium freed, and Dalinar's amended agreement would keep Odium contained either way. So Hoid did have an interest in seeing the contract fulfilled, even if it would have made no difference in a generation or three.
And while Hoid did help in working out the contract, he didn't set it up, or claim that it would solve Roshar's issues long-term. The contest was Tanavast's idea, taken up by Dalinar. It's not exactly unreasonable from his perspective to limit the damage instead of changing the course. 
Another thing of note here is that what Dalinar did would presumably not have been possible without the changing vessel of Odium. Rayse was by everything we heard of him totally against the idea of taking up another shard. And if Taravangian had kept to Odium, the threat he presented to the cosmere would have been considerably smaller, making direct action against him less likely than it is now. Breaking the contract without feeding T Honor was Hoid's worst case scenario, so no, he wouldn't and couldn't have come up with that plan for Dalinar.

 

7 hours ago, Sedside said:

n terms of responsibility, Hoid and the other Shards are kind of on equal level (maybe not precisely, but they are beings of approximately same degree), so they can and must deal with each other. Dalinar is much lower then all of them, he is mortal, he doesn't have any power, except for what is granted by his bond, and they decide to hand their responsibility to him, he takes it, but then he again singlehandedly decides to give it back to them? To me it reads like this: my boss comes to me and gives me a task from his boss. I take it, spend time doing it, but in the end I decide to fail it spectacularly just because my boss is the one who will be punished for that and will have to fix my mistakes. It doesn't matter if later it turns out that my boss tried to involve his collegues in this and they refused, he gave the task to me, and I agreed to do it. If he came to me and said "look, I am trying to bring my colleagues to their senses, but I can't handle this alone, help me do it", it would be different. But now it reads like Shards throw this potato to Hoid, Hoid throws it to Dalinar, Dalinar throws it back to Shards.

I don't think that really fits the situation here at all. Dalinar was Honor, when he decided to flip the board. He was on the level of the shards, because he was one himself. Especially that of his adversary that got the job just 10 days earlier. Hoid on the other hand most definitely doesn't have the capacities of a god, and isn't the boss of anyone of note. He has 1000s of years of experience, and he knows the guys that originally took up the powers personally, sure, but he doesn't have the powers of a shard, neither magically nor mentally, nor does he command their obedience or even benign respect. And as stated above, it wasn't Hoid that gave Dalinar the task. That was Tanavast. Tanavast was the useless boss here, Hoid was just a consultant. 

When this all started, Tanavast was Dalinar's god. And even accepting his death, his commands were quite weighty. So when Tanavast told Dalinar to do the contest and everything would be fine, he did so. Dalinar didn't have the relevant facts to judge the merits of the contest, but Tanavast, a god, hopefully had. Well, over time Dalinar found some reasons to doubt Tanavast, and his proxy, the Stormfather, so he diverged from the plan, and went to look for the capacity to face gods on his own. While on that adventure, he learned a lot more about Tanavast, and the more he learned, the less he was impressed. So when he grabbed the godly power and knowledge for himself, and with the understanding of the cosmere, the shards and the possible futures that came of it, he finally became certain that the plan was crem. It was, to get back to topic, wholly irresponsible. Not only would it require him to kill an innocent, it wouldn't even change anything in the long run, just kicking the problem down the road, in the hopes of someone or something else solving it in the future. Dalinar as Honor would be in the same situation that Tanavast had been in, restarting the magical arms race with Odium that had no end point before global annihilation. He had no solution, because he was a large part of the problem. 

So, he looked for others who could solve the problem, and organized an incentive for them to do so. Now, I have no clue what the shards are supposed to do against Retribution that doesn't threaten the existence of Roshar anyways, but I'd give Dalinar and Brandon the benefit of the doubt here in assuming that there is something. And whatever happens will be on Dalinar. He is still responsible for that plan, just like Tanavast was still responsible for the "contest of champions" plan. That the plan unavoidably led to his death doesn't change that. He took on responsibility here, he didn't avoid it. 

 

 

[Asininity]

Same as OP, I found Winds and Truth to be a significant departure from the tone and themes of earlier books, especially Oathbringer.

Spoiler

• Dalinar is the biggest offender. Dumping responsibility for his failings on everyone else? I can see how his actions might contribute to the eventual defeat of Taravangian, but shoving Coalition, Radiants and Spren under the bus to prove a point was completely out of character. At least he forces entire universe to do what he thinks is right, good ol' Dalinar.
• Kaladin's journey, which was always about selflessness, loyalty and overcoming hardships took wild turn. After all his efforts to connect with others, he immediately cuts everyone off. It was surprising to see him seemingly prioritize his own needs so quickly, reaching 5th Ideals felt effortless and abrupt.
• Szeth previously learned importance of his own moral agency and rejected blind obedience. In WaT he once again can't stand up to authorities, appearing completely passive and leaving important decisions to others, setting aside his quest for penance and redemption.
• Jasnah's development in previous books, especially her growing affection for her family went straight out the window. Somehow she forgot about that and Taravangian used it against her. She was established as well-versed, highly intelligent, competent albeit kind of ruthless - she delivered absolutely nothing of that.

Beyond individual characters, there was a noticeable shift in the series overarching theme. The earlier books embraced classical knightly values, like courage, justice and honor. Suddenly they got overshadowed by subterfuge, manipulation and clever wording.

 

[Sedside she/her]

3 minutes ago, Asininity said:

Same as OP, I found Winds and Truth to be a significant departure from the tone and themes of earlier books, especially Oathbringer.

I agree with almost everything you've written in the spoiler tag, except for

Spoiler

Jasnah. Whereas there is a definite shift in her personality and competence, I see this as something she absolutely needed for her future character growth, a failure she needed to face to overcome in in the future. Though I do agree that she could have handled the debate better, or just predict the possible outcome, granted how smart she is.

I would also like to add Adolin to the list. This is actually what bothers me the most, not even Dalinar. The whole series is centered around oaths and responsibility, journey before destination and so on. But here we get Adolin deliberately saying oaths are stupid and he doesn't like them, and somehow he turns out to be a leader of a new powerful force of Unoathed guys. Deadeyes being brought back with no clear explanation, even sapient spren experiencing Physical Realm without the need to form a Nahel bond also reads to me as something violating all of the previous setup just to empower Adolin further. Also his murder of Sadeas never gets properly addressed, while Jasnah gets punished for murdering some bandits in the alley. So, Adolin doesn't like oaths, whereas at the same time in the same book we see Adolin swearing an oath to Shallan. But, I guess, this oath is different? Will Adolin's Unoathed nature play out in regards to this particular oath, or will it be swept under the rug to avoid the drama in the relationship that Sanderson doesn't want to write? I assume so. But yeah, I'm talking about relationships again, and this is not a romantasy, so screw you, sedside, go read The Cruel Prince or something. Sorry for the sarcasm, it's just a reply I often receive here when I try to discuss this particular issue 

 

[Asininity]

11 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I agree with almost everything you've written in the spoiler tag, except for

  Reveal hidden contents

Jasnah. Whereas there is a definite shift in her personality and competence, I see this as something she absolutely needed for her future character growth, a failure she needed to face to overcome in in the future. Though I do agree that she could have handled the debate better, or just predict the possible outcome, granted how smart she is.

I would also like to add Adolin to the list. This is actually what bothers me the most, not even Dalinar. The whole series is centered around oaths and responsibility, journey before destination and so on. But here we get Adolin deliberately saying oaths are stupid and he doesn't like them, and somehow he turns out to be a leader of a new powerful force of Unoathed guys. Deadeyes being brought back with no clear explanation, even sapient spren experiencing Physical Realm without the need to form a Nahel bond also reads to me as something violating all of the previous setup just to empower Adolin further. Also his murder of Sadeas never gets properly addressed, while Jasnah gets punished for murdering some bandits in the alley. So, Adolin doesn't like oaths, whereas at the same time in the same book we see Adolin swearing an oath to Shallan. But, I guess, this oath is different? Will Adolin's Unoathed nature play out in regards to this particular oath, or will it be swept under the rug to avoid the drama in the relationship that Sanderson doesn't want to write? I assume so. But yeah, I'm talking about relationships again, and this is not a romantasy, so screw you, sedside, go read The Cruel Prince or something. Sorry for the sarcasm, it's just a reply I often receive here when I try to discuss this particular issue 

 

Spoiler

Oh for sure, that's main reason for whole debate. Jasnah needed some setbacks but going to argue with near-omniscient being does not sound like a brightest idea.

I didn't even knew where to start with Adolin and you nailed it.
As for Unoathed I think another Shard (Autonomy/Valor) could be involved but for now it's baseless speculation

 

[AlmightyGir]

On 12/27/2024 at 8:01 PM, Treamayne said:

TL;DR - my impression wasn't Dalinar ignores responsibity, so much as Dalinar made the people with the responsibility finally step-up. 

I wholeheartedly agree with this.
 

Spoiler

Dalinar had already reached the conclusion prior to the contest that the problem of Odium had already been passed down generation to generation within the context of the Rosharian system.

But once he took up Honor, he was finally able to realise that the other shards had been doing that for millenia. He broke that cycle, and finally made those who are ultimately responsible for Odium's behaviour actually have to do something about it.

You might even say, Dalinar actually took responsibility for Odium and did something about it. Instead of kicking the problem further down the line for someone else.

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by AlmightyGir

[Nitpicking]

22 hours ago, Sedside said:

I agree with almost everything you've written in the spoiler tag, except for

  Hide contents

... Deadeyes being brought back with no clear explanation, even sapient spren experiencing Physical Realm without the need to form a Nahel bond also reads to me as something violating all of the previous setup just to empower Adolin further ...

 

Why are we hiding so much stuff in a spoiler thread. I'll follow suit here, but why?

Spoiler

The deadeyes started to come back because Ba-Ado-Mishram was freed.

 

[Sedside she/her]

7 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Why are we hiding so much stuff in a spoiler thread. I'll follow suit here, but why?

Because the topic starter hasn't finished the book, but maybe it isn't necessary anymore.

Spoiler

Mishram was freed on day 10. Maya started to wake up since OB, was very close to it in RoW, and was perfectly functional on day 3. I haven't yet heard any explanation to this. Also, it was Maya who brought her fellow deadeyes back, not Mishram. She went for them on day 3 or 4, why would she do that if deadeyes needed Misham free to get back? I mean, Maya doesn't know that Mishram will be free, but she leaves Adolin alone for several days to fetch deadeyes who wouldn't be able to help because Mishram is not free? It makes no sense.

 

[MagicMaggot]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Because the topic starter hasn't finished the book, but maybe it isn't necessary anymore.

Yeah, I think I'll do just that. If the topic starter is still around and hasn't finished the book since tuesday, he can take this as my spoiler warning. 

Else I don't think we need to perpetuate a Wandersail-situation here, and the quotes in quotes in spoilers aren't exactly comfortable to follow.

 

On 12/28/2024 at 3:31 PM, Asininity said:

• Szeth previously learned importance of his own moral agency and rejected blind obedience. In WaT he once again can't stand up to authorities, appearing completely passive and leaving important decisions to others, setting aside his quest for penance and redemption.

I didn't get anything of that before this book, to be honest. In Oathbringer he decided which law to follow blindly, and in RoW the closest he came to making an idependent decision was killing Taravangian, which wasn't exactly a moment of character progression for him, and deciding on cleansing Shinovar (if Dalinar agreed), which was kind of an obvious move for him. So I'm surprised somebody would be surprised that the decision issues of the guy who unquestioningly followed anyone who held his rock for years, would have been undone by that. 

23 hours ago, Sedside said:

I would also like to add Adolin to the list. This is actually what bothers me the most, not even Dalinar. The whole series is centered around oaths and responsibility, journey before destination and so on. But here we get Adolin deliberately saying oaths are stupid and he doesn't like them, and somehow he turns out to be a leader of a new powerful force of Unoathed guys. Deadeyes being brought back with no clear explanation, even sapient spren experiencing Physical Realm without the need to form a Nahel bond also reads to me as something violating all of the previous setup just to empower Adolin further. Also his murder of Sadeas never gets properly addressed, while Jasnah gets punished for murdering some bandits in the alley. So, Adolin doesn't like oaths, whereas at the same time in the same book we see Adolin swearing an oath to Shallan. But, I guess, this oath is different? Will Adolin's Unoathed nature play out in regards to this particular oath, or will it be swept under the rug to avoid the drama in the relationship that Sanderson doesn't want to write? I assume so. But yeah, I'm talking about relationships again, and this is not a romantasy, so screw you, sedside, go read The Cruel Prince or something. Sorry for the sarcasm, it's just a reply I often receive here when I try to discuss this particular issue 

I get the criticism of the magics involved here, Sanderson got kind of squishy with his supposedly hard magic in this book, and I don't enjoy that myself. And I get there is some speculation going on, how Adolin's view could somehow become prevalent, totally changing the message of the books in the later half. But that hasn't happened yet, so I find it to be too early for that criticism. If you don't trust the author to make the situation reasonably interesting that's fine, but it's not exactly a helpful argument for now. 

As far as I see it, Adolin's rejection of swearing oaths himself isn't really undermining much of anything. If he didn't think oaths were important, there'd be no harm in making them. And if one thinks that the correct solution to the story of the man who sat on the chair for 10 years was, that the man should just never have sworn that oath... well, that's actually exactly what Adolin is doing. Yeah, he is arguing that regretfully breaking a stupid oath is better than keeping it, but in practice he is just not making oaths he isn't sure about. And if one truly likes oaths to be a central building block of the series, I find it hard to understand why one would reject critical perspectives on the topic in the middle of the series.

Looking towards the future... I find it very hard to imagine Adolin of all people starting some philosophical movement on Roshar. The Unoathed certainly weren't sworn in on Adolin's anti-oath philosophy (obviously), they just took up arms. And if it isn't Adolin, but the Azish that take up his ideas and expand upon them, I'd expect some serious reworking of the arguments here, to the point where we wouldn't really be talking about the same thing anymore.  

On Sadeas, I have no clue why people keep bringing that one up as if there was something left open. Killing Sadeas just wasn't the start of some character-changing arc for Adolin, it was a revelation of who he was, and a wedge between him and his father. If some god ever challenges Adolin to a silly debate, I am sure it will be brought up. But I'd expect the reader to have to survive without Brandon making it explicit that murdering traitorous warlords is a bad thing. Maybe because I'd not be so certain on that one myself.

 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

 Maya started to wake up since OB, was very close to it in RoW, and was perfectly functional on day 3. I haven't yet heard any explanation to this. 

There is one in the text, though:

She had been changing quickly, ever since their visit to the tower. A living Urithiru appeared to have invigorated her, and had also somehow strengthened whatever was happening between them. She said the Light of the tower made her feel refreshed, and he felt her in his mind stronger now. She could see into the Physical Realm through his eyes, including when he hadn’t summoned her as a Blade, and she’d been responding more and more, even volunteering comments.

I'll agree that it is more vague than I'd appreciate, and would hope for that to be explored more in the future, but for now it is an explanation. 

Edited December 29, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[Karger he/him]

I think its actually a step up for Dalinar.  Being responsible was very important to him personally as a leader but "I need to be responsible" can be kind of arrogant as it implies you are the only adult in the room.  One of his biggest issues is that Dalinar is an authoritarian, a dictator.  He's literally a warlord so this is not unexpected but it meant that he tended to solve problems unilaterally.  Being responsible for yourself is different from being responsible for literally everything.  Taravangian kind of went the opposite track.  "I'm responsible for everything so I can't be responsible for myself."  Dalinar by contrast went "I'm responsible for myself so I can't be responsible for everything."

[Sedside she/her]

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

As far as I see it, Adolin's rejection of swearing oaths himself isn't really undermining much of anything. If he didn't think oaths were important, there'd be no harm in making them. And if one thinks that the correct solution to the story of the man who sat on the chair for 10 years was, that the man should just never have sworn that oath... well, that's actually exactly what Adolin is doing. Yeah, he is arguing that regretfully breaking a stupid oath is better than keeping it, but in practice he is just not making oaths he isn't sure about. And if one truly likes oaths to be a central building block of the series, I find it hard to understand why one would reject critical perspectives on the topic in the middle of the series.

I don't mind Adolin not swearing oaths. He can refuse to swear oaths and remain an ordinary human like 99.9% of Rosharans. What I don't like is that he both refuses to swear oaths and still gets his superpowers. I read it as a violation of the series philosophy power = responsibility = oaths. Now we have special case for Adolin "you can have power without responsibility".

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

On Sadeas, I have no clue why people keep bringing that one up as if there was something left open.

Yeah, that's why I keep bringing it up. I've already mentioned Jasnah and her episode with bandits, this issue had been brought up, but I wouldn't expect any of the people to think anything was left open there. And still it was. And the episode of Adolin rage murdering one of the main villains after conveniently meeting him alone in the corridor right after Kaladin explicitly talks about murders in dark corridors being distasteful not being addressed at all and used just to show who Adolin is and drive a wedge between him and his father? Especially granted it added absolutely nothing to the story, aside from getting rid of Sadead. I mean, we are in the topic about disappointment, and this is what disappoints me. I think it is either a set up for something in the future, or just a very very very bad writing. And I incline towards the latter, otherwise I wouldn't have been disappointed.

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

There is one in the text, though:

She had been changing quickly, ever since their visit to the tower. A living Urithiru appeared to have invigorated her, and had also somehow strengthened whatever was happening between them. She said the Light of the tower made her feel refreshed, and he felt her in his mind stronger now. She could see into the Physical Realm through his eyes, including when he hadn’t summoned her as a Blade, and she’d been responding more and more, even volunteering comments.

I'll agree that it is more vague than I'd appreciate, and would hope for that to be explored more in the future, but for now it is an explanation. 

This explains (vague, as you said) only the last of my questions. It doesn't explain why Maya had started to revive in RoW and even OB. Is there any explanation to this other than "Adolin is just a really very special kind of a snowflake"? Considering the two previous things I wrote, and also a lot of other things about him, I think this is exactly the case. The golden Mary Sue boy gets everything he wants, even if it's impossible within the world's magic system, free of charge oaths.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Sedside
added a little bit

[MagicMaggot]

 

47 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I read it as a violation of the series philosophy power = responsibility = oaths. Now we have special case for Adolin "you can have power without responsibility".

I certainly got the "with great power comes great responsibility"-aspect, and the oaths were a nice shorthand for taking up that responsibility, but you think we were meant to equate oath-taking with responsibility? I think you're just flat-out wrong on that one, sorry. 

Power-> Responsibility makes sense.
Oaths -> Responsibility as well. 
Oaths -> Power is true on Roshar, but hardly a moral message.  
Responsibility -> Power doesn't strike me as true or moral, and it certainly was never central.
Responsibility -> Oaths and Power->Oaths seem obviously wrong to me.
So we certainly have more complex relations between these concepts than identity, even on Roshar. 

I also think you are reading more into Adolin's philosophy than the text actually gives us. His arguments are at best half-formed intuitions. But his actions very clearly show that he doesn't reject either responsibility, nor duty. His definition of a promise, as opposed to an oath, still requires one to earnestly do one's best to keep it. The whole book he is fighting for Asir beyond the call of duty, he is trying his best to keep his promise to Maya, even when he doubts the outcome, and he is taking on responsibility for Yanagawn, because he thinks the boy needs a friend. If you think Adolin's lived philosophy is all about denying responsibility, you have very likely misread him. And if there is a message in him getting power without oaths, it certainly isn't connected to shirking responsibility. As far as I am concerned he got powers because he storming well deserved them for quite some time. 

47 minutes ago, Sedside said:

This explains (vague, as you said) only the last of my questions.

Well, yes. That's why I only quoted that one. 

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

I don't mind Adolin not swearing oaths. He can refuse to swear oaths and remain an ordinary human like 99.9% of Rosharans. What I don't like is that he both refuses to swear oaths and still gets his superpowers. I read it as a violation of the series philosophy power = responsibility = oaths. Now we have special case for Adolin "you can have power without responsibility".

<snip>

This explains (vague, as you said) only the last of my questions. It doesn't explain why Maya had started to revive in RoW and even OB. Is there any explanation to this other than "Adolin is just a really very special kind of a snowflake"? Considering the two previous things I wrote, and also a lot of other things about him, I think this is exactly the case. The golden Mary Sue boy gets everything he wants, even if it's impossible within the world's magic system, free of charge oaths.

The bond between Adolin and Maya is entirely consistent with the Magic of Roshar, as shown so far. A Nahel Bond is any bond between a Physical Realm being and one or more Spren. We've seen it in the Rhyshadium (the bond gives them their sapience and strength), the Chasmfiends (The bond allows them to not be crushed by their own weight - square-cube law). Chiri Chiri is similar, needing a Mandra bond (Dawnshard) to survive and continue growing. The Radiant Bond is a specific type of bond that requires Oaths to allow the Radiant access to surges as the Spren helps heal their "cracks with something stronger." 

Maya said the Oaths (RoW Ch 94), but we know there is no access to surges, so this is likely some new kind of Nahel Bond - where Adolin is helping to heal Maya's cracked spiritweb. 

Spoiler

“I should like to take credit,” she said, “for your victory in what everyone assumed was an unwinnable trial. But it was not my tutelage, or your boldness, that won this day.”

Maya finally let go of Adolin’s arm. She seemed stronger than before, though her eyes were still scratched out. He could feel her curiosity, her … awareness. She looked up at him and nodded.

He nodded back. “Thank you.”

“Stren…” she whispered. “Stren. Be…”

“Strength before weakness.”

She nodded again, then turned her scratched-out gaze toward the ground, exhausted.

“I don’t intend to forget that you testified against me,” Adolin said to Blended. “You played both sides of this game.”

“It was the best way for me to win,” she said, inspecting Maya. “But you should know that I suggested to the honorspren elders that they use your deadeye as a witness. They were unaware of the legal provision that allowed them to speak for her.”

“Then her pain is your fault?” Adolin demanded.

“I did not suggest they treat her with such callousness,” Blended said. “Their act is their own, as is their shame. But admittedly, I knew how they might act. I wanted to know if a truth exists—the one you said to me.”

Adolin frowned, trying to remember.

“That she spoke,” Blended reminded him. “To you. That friendship exists between you. I sought proof, and found that her name—recorded in old documents of spren treaties—is as you said. A curious fact to find. Indeed.”

Blended strolled around Adolin and studied Maya’s face. “Still scratched out…” she said. “Though a bond between you is.”

“I’m … no Radiant,” Adolin said.

“No. That is certain.” Maya met Blended’s gaze. “But something is happening.

But you are correct that we do not yet know why Maya was convinced the deadeyes would be able to cross over whether or not BAM was released. However, we do know that a normal Deadeye blade is only able to be dismissed due to the Gem that was added after the recreance, which also created a bond between wielder and Deadeye (by syncing their heartbeat, to form a Connection for them to manifest as a Physical Realm as a blade. My guess is that because these Deadeyes were the "Forgotten" (explained in -story as lost Shads that were forgotten until they faded back to the Cognitive realm only) that even bringing them to Adolin's attention could forge some measure of Connection to help bring them through (just my current hypothesis).

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

And the episode of Adolin rage murdering one of the main villains after conveniently meeting him alone in the corridor right after Kaladin explicitly talks about murders in dark corridors being distasteful not being addressed at all and used just to show who Adolin is and drive a wedge between him and his father? Especially granted it added absolutely nothing to the story, aside from getting rid of Sadead. I mean, we are in the topic about disappointment, and this is what disappoints me.

Yes, the primary result was Sadeas is gone. Palona said it best (OB Ch 2):

Spoiler

“Well!” said Palona, hands on hips as she regarded Sadeas’s corpse. “I guess that’s one problem solved!”

Everyone in the room turned toward her.

“What?” she said. “Don’t tell me you weren’t all thinking it.”

More to the point - 1) Adolin did not "conveniently" find him alone. He heard the Seadeas searchers, and tried to leave without confrontation. Torol caused and provoked his own death. 2) Brandon really needed to kill off Sadeas, for the same reason Rayse was killed and replaced by Taravangian - how credible is Sadeas as an antagonist when every gambit he has tried has failed, and each new one fails harder than the prior. Events of WoR had rendered Torol Sadeas into a toothless snake - very annoying, but ultimately ineffective. Removing him allowed the Ialai storyline, the "return" of Amaram.

I'm sorry this subplot didn't work for you, and I respect your opinion; but please don't think that the subplot was without merit because it fell flat for you. Ending an annoyance, expanding the story, returning Amaram (a larger threat for Kaladin than Sadeas was for Dalinar) and providing a mechanism for conflict between Adolin and Dalinar, character growth for Adolin and bonding mechanisms for Adolin and Shallan (over the investigation) means this one event pulled a lot of weight for much of Oathbringer's storyline.

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

I also think you are reading more into Adolin's philosophy than the text actually gives us. His arguments are at best half-formed intuitions. But his actions very clearly show that he doesn't reject either responsibility, nor duty. His definition of a promise, as opposed to an oath, still requires one to earnestly do one's best to keep it.

That's part of what I was trying to say in another thread. I do not think the power of Honor cares if you call it an Oath or a Promise, but the semantic difference is important to Adolin because, for him, a Promise is more personal - and if Adolin has one fatal flaw it is, sometimes, being too personal. 

[AlmightyGir]

I think it's also important to point out that the most important aspect is Intent. People can speak the first words of Radiance all they like, but if their Intent behind the words isn't correct, they won't be accepted at the first ideal.

Adolin might not be speaking formal oaths, and would prefer to call his actions promises. But I think from what we've seen, his Intent is quite apparent, and that seems to carry a lot of weight with both spren and shards.

[Sedside she/her]

11 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

I think you're just flat-out wrong on that one, sorry. 

Oh, well, I can't possibly disprove this ultimate argument, so thank you for the discussion.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The bond between Adolin and Maya is entirely consistent with the Magic of Roshar, as shown so far.

What I know about deadeyes so far, is that that transformation is supposed to be almost irreversible. In every scene in Shadesmar in RoW every spren says "deadeyes can't talk/think/whatever", but then Maya talks, thinks, whatever. Is there an explanation to this? I've read the first 3 books 4 times, and I don't think I've seen it. I've read RoW two times, also haven't seen it. I don't think I'm ever going to reread WaT, at least until I know the big picture of where SA as a whole is going, so if you have a consistent in-book (not WoB, please) explanation, I would like to see it

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Maya said the Oaths (RoW Ch 94), but we know there is no access to surges, so this is likely some new kind of Nahel Bond - where Adolin is helping to heal Maya's cracked spiritweb. 

This is as good explanation as any, and I would be totally fine with it, if I didn't know that the process happening between Maya and Adolin is so unique. Shardblades had existed for how long? 1000 years? 2000? Why haven't anyone ever experienced this same thing as Adolin and Maya? Why are all the spren in Shadesmar so sure that turning into deadeyes is irreversible? There also is a WoB saying that healing a deadeye is supposed to be very very hard. So I want to know - what exactly is this "very very hard" thing Adolin has done? Or not Adolin, someone else? Why Maya is supposedly the first deadeye in millenia to heal? If she it not - why haven't we heard of another such cases?

I mean, try to get me right, I am a very logical person. I want to see the cause and effect relationship. What I am seeing now: deadeyes can't think or talk, the transformation is believed to be eternal, all the spren we see are 100% sure about it and are very suprised to see the Adolin-Maya interactions. It looks like the author himself is telling me "look, sedside, something very unusual is happening, do you wanna know why?" Ofc I do! But then there is no answer. It's just happening and that's it. Imagine we had the same situation with Kaladin in WoK. Look, Kaladin is the only one left alive from his initial bridge crew. Look, arrows always miss him and his wounds heal quickly. Look, he survived the highstorm. And then no explanation to it. I definitely wouldn't like it. But with Adolin there is no clear explanation to what is happening, at least I didn't find it in the book, and the only thing we can do is guess. So I think at this point any guess is as good as any other, and my guess so far based on the numerous other Adolin issues in this series, is that Adolin is a Mary Sue. And back to the topic, the case of him having another asbolutely unexplained unique situation of having powers without the need to be restricted by oaths is just another point in the long list. By powers I don't mean surges, I mean something that makes him supernaturally surpass the majority of the population. And he is now actually the leader of presumably the most powerful force on Roshar outside of Urithiru.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

More to the point - 1) Adolin did not "conveniently" find him alone. He heard the Seadeas searchers, and tried to leave without confrontation. Torol caused and provoked his own death.

I worded myself badly. What I wanted to say is that the whole sutiation turned out to be very convenient for Adolin. First of all, I thought the tower was enormous, but Adolin managed to meet Sadeas in it anyway. The second point is that Sadeas, in my opinion, acted rather stupid from that point. He let his guards leave him alone with the man that hates him and has anger issues. Sadeas knows both of this for sure. And if that's not enough, he also let himself provoke this young and armed hothead, well-known for his dueling skills. And then the entire thing hadn't caused any significant bad consequences for Adolin, except for the occasional pricks of conscience or lectures from his father. Actually, he even had good consequences, because this deed gave him an excuse to refuse the throne after Elhokar's death. The throne he didn't want. Another convenience, in my opinion.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

2) Brandon really needed to kill off Sadeas, for the same reason Rayse was killed and replaced by Taravangian - how credible is Sadeas as an antagonist when every gambit he has tried has failed, and each new one fails harder than the prior. Events of WoR had rendered Torol Sadeas into a toothless snake - very annoying, but ultimately ineffective. Removing him allowed the Ialai storyline, the "return" of Amaram.

Oh, with this I agree easily. I understand that Sadeas had outlived himself probably and had to be removed, the only thing I have issues with is how it was written. Rayse-Taravangian switch was written brilliantly. This... He could have been killed by Ghostbloods, or by parshendi, or by Moash (why not), or by another Diagram member, or by a fallen boulder, or by an assassin hired by Jasnah, or whatever else Sanderson could come up with. A heart attack finally. An accidental drop into the chasm. Poisoned chull dung in his stew. But no, it was written the way it was written, and I thought as a reader that there should be more to it, I expected it to be a buildup for something that will follow, but then nothing followed, and it disappoints me.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm sorry this subplot didn't work for you, and I respect your opinion; but please don't think that the subplot was without merit because it fell flat for you. Ending an annoyance, expanding the story, returning Amaram (a larger threat for Kaladin than Sadeas was for Dalinar) and providing a mechanism for conflict between Adolin and Dalinar, character growth for Adolin and bonding mechanisms for Adolin and Shallan (over the investigation) means this one event pulled a lot of weight for much of Oathbringer's storyline.

I'm not saying the subplot has no merit. I'm saying Adolin's participation in it had no merit. The way it was written and addressed to further had no merit. Adolin thinking about how satisfying it felt to shove a knife into Sadeas's eye and then becoming a White Knight everyone adores without any noticeable (for me) processing of what he has done. Ending an annoyance? Sadeas wasn't an annoyance for me, and I can cite Dalinar's take on "let's start removing them quietly" here as well. For me the annoyance here is Adolin, maybe someone will murder him as well like that? You know what, I wouldn't like it at all. I want the events in the book to make sense, and this kind of thing wouldn't make sense even if the character removed is the character I don't like. Amaram - fine, I agree, I wanted to see Amaram back. Conflict between Adolin and Dalinar? Great, but have we seen any implications of this conflict? If we mentally remove this conflict from the book, will anything change plot-wise? I don't think so. To me it reads like applying to Adolin this conflict only exists in his head, just to provide his character with something that looks like reflexion or struggles. Like "look, he is not such a golden boy you thought he was, he has a conflict with his father". Regarding his character growth - well, it doesn't work for me either. I don't see Adolin's character growth until WaT, and in WaT his character growth (which I did like and appreciate a lot, and I'm so very happy to see it happening finally) was tied with him fighting among the ordinary spearmen and coming to all these awesome conclusions about his place in the world and so on. To me character growth is about struggling and overcoming these struggles. It's not about musings or doing something convenient for the plot. I haven't seen Adolin struggling with anything in regards to Sadeas's murder. Bonding mechanism for Adolin and Shallan was their betrothal, and, again, in my opinion, they are still not bonded by anything except for physical attraction. And ofc I don't argue with your point about the meaning of this event for the OB storyline. I believe I haven't ever said anything like that, but again, this is probably because my English is too bad to properly express my thoughts.

[Kadollan]

8 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

I think it's also important to point out that the most important aspect is Intent. People can speak the first words of Radiance all they like, but if their Intent behind the words isn't correct, they won't be accepted at the first ideal.

Adolin might not be speaking formal oaths, and would prefer to call his actions promises. But I think from what we've seen, his Intent is quite apparent, and that seems to carry a lot of weight with both spren and shards.

I would even say that Adolin story arc is "critizing" the Oaths the Radiants take. It's like his story is showing that Oaths doesn't have to be a magical / awesome / grand, his oath is more like a down-to-earth, mundane (but still noble in spirit) version of the oath, which is still powerful in their own ways.

[MagicMaggot]

  

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Oh, well, I can't possibly disprove this ultimate argument, so thank you for the discussion.

You could also have taken that as an invitation to explain why you are so sure about your claim. If you expected responsibility equating oaths to be a "series philosophy" of Stormlight, I can see why you'd think what happened here a takeback. But I certainly didn't have that expectation and I didn't see it substantiated in the text, nor did I see much of an explanation where it came from from you. So yeah, I am perfectly comfortable with putting the burden  of proof on you on that one, and just denying the claim until it is met. What else am I supposed to do?