Ripheus23 Posted December 24, 2024 Posted December 24, 2024 (edited) Wild guess: the Godforge overlaps the Origin in the CR. Logicspren look like little storms, I assume this means that they're very electricity-y, and this future-wise has to do with the role of logic and electronics in computation/Cognition (on the Physical plane). But anyway, then, there's also the symbolism of the "logon agon" (the contest-of-words in Greek philosophy) in play, like logicspren are drawn to powerful arguments so the "stormy" quality of dialectic plays in turn into their presentation and role in the generation of storms at the Origin. So: book 10 would be a great entry to have the Godforge show up in, or even if they find it earlier, then guessing again that the Godforge is a mirror of the Origin/source of the highstorms, then if resetting Rosharan ecology is a major arc in the back half, well... And then, like, book 10 is Jasnah's flashback book, she's an Elsecaller, their armor is made of logicspren, and inkspren themselves have a weird Physical property (they seem kind of like they're more "bound" by Physicality than other Nahel spren, in the sense of not changing shape in the PR or not being able to become Physically invisible), so I wonder if something about this property would help mediate a process of conducting the "electricity" of a storm of logicspren, at the site of the Godforge, back into the PR? Though on another hand, thematically, it would hardly make sense if Sylphrena weren't present during some of the relevant scenes, no? I don't know... She's had a lot of cool scenes, but I'll be damned if she doesn't get her own true super-Sanderlanche someday At least, again, for the theme-of-the-story's sake, I hope she does something on that scale/level, and in a place with a stereotypically, but correctly, cool name like "the Godforge" wouldn't be a bad way to play that theme at all... But which would mean that Kaladin/Sylphrena cross paths with Jasnah in the back half, in such a context? Why would that happen??? ("Theory": a lot of the protagonists have to meet up in the end, it'll be book 10 for heaven's sake!) EDIT: OK, so, like, Jasnah is Dalinar's daughter. For her to reprise her argument with Taravangian in the back half would be to reprise Dalinar's expectation that the contest-of-champions would be an example of the logon agon. And also, if I'm right, Jasnah's place in Kharbranth in WoK, and her debate over theism/atheism there. So, like, Cultivation actually dropped a mother-of-all-reveals during one of the tangent scenes with Odium, she basically stated that the core philosophical justification for the Shattering was anti-monotheism. That not needing to have one god, or moreover needing to not have one, testified against Rayse's/Odium's desire to become the sole Shard. Jasnah's already denied the godhood of Honor, I bet she doesn't think Adonalsium was the genuine-article Almighty either. She'll be impressed by Taravangian as Retribution, but she won't think to worship him. Recapitulating the debate over the existence of God, relative to Dalinar's status as a "prophet" of the God Beyond on Roshar, with Jasnah being his daughter... Well, wait, I was separately thinking that part of the final showdown with Taravangian might be in the Spiritual Kharbranth, for some more narrative symmetry's sake. This would suggest Jasnah going there, to conduct her argument. Hmm... So maybe Kaladin and Sylphrena are at the Godforge, and they see a vast host of logicspren forming, because elsewhere, a great debate is being conducted, between Jasnah and the god she doesn't believe in, and part of Jasnah's argument is that yes, the Shattering of Adonalsium was to some extent justifiable, or at least understandable, from the point of view of monotheism's ethically problematic characteristics. Monotheism is often practiced in a manner energized by the most violent incarnations of the logon agon, and Retribution represents not only the hatred invested in this kind of rancor, but the insufferable self-righteousness of supposed victors in the contest-of-words at any time. I should like to note that the major use of the word "odium" in the pertinent real-world/Earth history, was as part of the phrase "odium theologicum," which is a specifically religious form of the logon agon. (That is, though the word didn't come from that time, what brought it to Sanderson's attention was possibly/presumably not just its default connotations, but its embedding in the relevant two-word phrase.) Accordingly, it is indeed Jasnah who must play the role that she ends up playing, in book 10, whatever it is? EDIT 2: sorry, I forgot, she's Gavilar's daughter. I guess in my head I got this image of Dalinar as her "adoptive" father via Navani. Actually, thematically, that factoid works even better, maybe, though. Edited December 24, 2024 by Ripheus23
Argenti he/him Posted January 3, 2025 Posted January 3, 2025 On 12/24/2024 at 10:43 AM, Ripheus23 said: Wild guess: the Godforge overlaps the Origin in the CR. Logicspren look like little storms, I assume this means that they're very electricity-y, and this future-wise has to do with the role of logic and electronics in computation/Cognition (on the Physical plane). But anyway, then, there's also the symbolism of the "logon agon" (the contest-of-words in Greek philosophy) in play, like logicspren are drawn to powerful arguments so the "stormy" quality of dialectic plays in turn into their presentation and role in the generation of storms at the Origin. So: book 10 would be a great entry to have the Godforge show up in, or even if they find it earlier, then guessing again that the Godforge is a mirror of the Origin/source of the highstorms, then if resetting Rosharan ecology is a major arc in the back half, well... And then, like, book 10 is Jasnah's flashback book, she's an Elsecaller, their armor is made of logicspren, and inkspren themselves have a weird Physical property (they seem kind of like they're more "bound" by Physicality than other Nahel spren, in the sense of not changing shape in the PR or not being able to become Physically invisible), so I wonder if something about this property would help mediate a process of conducting the "electricity" of a storm of logicspren, at the site of the Godforge, back into the PR? Though on another hand, thematically, it would hardly make sense if Sylphrena weren't present during some of the relevant scenes, no? I don't know... She's had a lot of cool scenes, but I'll be damned if she doesn't get her own true super-Sanderlanche someday At least, again, for the theme-of-the-story's sake, I hope she does something on that scale/level, and in a place with a stereotypically, but correctly, cool name like "the Godforge" wouldn't be a bad way to play that theme at all... But which would mean that Kaladin/Sylphrena cross paths with Jasnah in the back half, in such a context? Why would that happen??? ("Theory": a lot of the protagonists have to meet up in the end, it'll be book 10 for heaven's sake!) EDIT: OK, so, like, Jasnah is Dalinar's daughter. For her to reprise her argument with Taravangian in the back half would be to reprise Dalinar's expectation that the contest-of-champions would be an example of the logon agon. And also, if I'm right, Jasnah's place in Kharbranth in WoK, and her debate over theism/atheism there. So, like, Cultivation actually dropped a mother-of-all-reveals during one of the tangent scenes with Odium, she basically stated that the core philosophical justification for the Shattering was anti-monotheism. That not needing to have one god, or moreover needing to not have one, testified against Rayse's/Odium's desire to become the sole Shard. Jasnah's already denied the godhood of Honor, I bet she doesn't think Adonalsium was the genuine-article Almighty either. She'll be impressed by Taravangian as Retribution, but she won't think to worship him. Recapitulating the debate over the existence of God, relative to Dalinar's status as a "prophet" of the God Beyond on Roshar, with Jasnah being his daughter... Well, wait, I was separately thinking that part of the final showdown with Taravangian might be in the Spiritual Kharbranth, for some more narrative symmetry's sake. This would suggest Jasnah going there, to conduct her argument. Hmm... So maybe Kaladin and Sylphrena are at the Godforge, and they see a vast host of logicspren forming, because elsewhere, a great debate is being conducted, between Jasnah and the god she doesn't believe in, and part of Jasnah's argument is that yes, the Shattering of Adonalsium was to some extent justifiable, or at least understandable, from the point of view of monotheism's ethically problematic characteristics. Monotheism is often practiced in a manner energized by the most violent incarnations of the logon agon, and Retribution represents not only the hatred invested in this kind of rancor, but the insufferable self-righteousness of supposed victors in the contest-of-words at any time. I should like to note that the major use of the word "odium" in the pertinent real-world/Earth history, was as part of the phrase "odium theologicum," which is a specifically religious form of the logon agon. (That is, though the word didn't come from that time, what brought it to Sanderson's attention was possibly/presumably not just its default connotations, but its embedding in the relevant two-word phrase.) Accordingly, it is indeed Jasnah who must play the role that she ends up playing, in book 10, whatever it is? EDIT 2: sorry, I forgot, she's Gavilar's daughter. I guess in my head I got this image of Dalinar as her "adoptive" father via Navani. Actually, thematically, that factoid works even better, maybe, though. I've gotta say, I have no idea what you're trying to say with this theory. Are you saying that Jasnah's future argument with T-Ret will bring back the highstorm?
Ripheus23 Posted January 3, 2025 Author Posted January 3, 2025 (edited) 6 hours ago, Argenti said: I've gotta say, I have no idea what you're trying to say with this theory. Are you saying that Jasnah's future argument with T-Ret will bring back the highstorm? Basically yes. My prediction is that part of the final showdown with Retribution will be in Spiritual Kharbranth, where Jasnah will reprise her debate with Taravangian, the intensity and force of the debate will invoke the logicspren on a huge scale, her weapon-spren's type of unique physicality will help mediate the energy of the logicspren from the Spiritual Realm down into the Godforge in the Cognitive Realm, which energy will then be channeled into the Physical Realm at the Origin, and so "meanwhile" Kaladin and Sylphrena will be at the Godforge/Origin to witness this, they will play their appointed roles in shaping the storm of the logicspren (along with others playing their appointed roles in other environments), and by means of this convergence, the highstorm will be reformed. Spitfire guesses: the Wind, Lift, Dawnshards, Ishar, and/or etc. will contribute importantly to the process, but I have little insight into e.g. Ishar's narrative role in the back half (I've heard we'll get Herald flashbacks or something, but for him? I think I've heard for Taln and Ash, but maybe not him, I don't know...). By contrast, I have a strong sense about what Sanderson is doing, on the philosophical level, with Jasnah, and having her be the book 10 flashback POV will mean, I strongly assume, that we will be getting personal insights into her irreligiosity/rejection of deity. Since WoK starts in Kharbranth (from Shallan's POV, but also Jasnah's implicitly), I think for the sake of the super-ketek "logic" of the ten-book pattern that Sanderson at least has a narrator's motive in setting part of the final confrontation in Kharbranth. Since one of Jasnah's opening moves in her character presentation is her discourse with Kabsal about the symmetrical cityscapes and their being "evidence" of God, it seems like it would be "fitting". Bonus crackpot theorizing: Jasnah will become a dual Radiant, bonded also to a mistspren for the sake of the Heraldic value of the Palanaeum, and so that the role of mist and concentration(spren) in the manifestation of storm conditions (and as a callback to the value of mist in, err, the Mistborn books...) and the focus involved in logic, will further feature in the process of regenerating the highstorm. (See also: The Coppermind entry on Pralla, where it says, "In the Vorin culture, Pralla is associated with number 5" (so e.g. the fifth book in the back half???.) Random extra guess: the unusual physicality of the inkspren will be juxtaposed with Ishar's disturbing experiments into spren physicality generally. Maybe Ishar will try to reopen Honor's (now Retribution's?) perpendicularity, partly by way of Connecting with Jasnah's inkspren, to facilitate the highstorm-reformation process? Perhaps with Honor and Odium merged, summoning the residual form of Honor's perpendicularity would go hand in hand with drawing on the old well of Odium's godmetal (under the Shattered Plains??? did I read that part of W&T right??? I don't know...), and since Ishar partook of that well already, well... Caveat: there are a zillion potential apocalypse-level variables in the Stormlight Archive, so figuring out which arrangement of which values would be the most "realistic" seems impossible for me. I'm going mostly on vibes, narrative vibes yes, but still... Since I'll have to wait a zillion years for book 10, seems also like the best I can do for now * * * Super-extra silly "logic": where is ink itself found most? I don't know where the concept of ink on Roshar comes from, I don't think they've ever said anything about octopus-like creatures there, among other things. For now, all I can say is that there is a lot of ink in books, especially in the place with the most books in the Rosharan world, the Palanaeum. Just imagine: the legends say the City of Bells gets the purpose of its name from the ability of the bells there to signal impending highstorms. Will Retribution keep up the ruse, so to speak, making a ghost of the highstorm pass across Spiritual Kharbranth, providing one component for a true restored highstorm thereby-the-by? Or will the bells be silent until the true new highstorm is born, and this will be an aspect of the final confrontation: a scene where they say that the bells are ringing again? Next edit: here's a fluffy pastry of a WoB (rich in fluff, light on dough!): Quote FeatherWriter Can I ask about Glys and Tumi, which are Rlain and Renarin's spren. Obviously they have some weirdness from Sja-anat, but they seem very, very different from the other mistspren we see, whose name is Dreaming-though-Awake. And sometimes they seem like they talk like inkspren, with that focus on the "be" verb at the end of sentences, and things like that. [emphasis added] Is there a reason why they are so very different - I mean we've only seen one other mistspren, but... Brandon Sanderson Yes, there are reasons indeed. I will give you more as the series progresses. Remember, Renarin has (right now) in the sequence book 7, and so you are going to have an entire Renarin book with its own flashback sequence that you can look forward too. It'll be Renarin in his thirties; he'll be older, he may be wiser. We'll see. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) So, we have a weird juxtaposition of inkspren and mistspren already. Here's some more fluff: Quote WeiryWriter The Nightwatcher is described as having an amorphous, vague, humanoid form of dark green mist with a smooth, defined face. This is similar to how the mistspren are described (faces like porcelain masks and bodies of swirling fog). Did the Nightwatcher serve as the progenitor of the mistspren similar to how Honor, and later the Stormfather, were progenitors of honorspren like Syl. Brandon Sanderson One more time. WeiryWriter ...Did the Nightwatcher serve as the progenitor of the mistspren similar to how Honor, and later the Stormfather, were the progenitors of the honorspren like Syl. Brandon Sanderson ...Are you talking about author inspirations or in-world sort of things? WeiryWriter Either. Brandon Sanderson No, not in-world. And out of world, it's the reverse. Mist spirits came before. I ended up doing-- WeiryWriter No, mistspren. Brandon Sanderson Oh, mistspren. So you're saying the ones in Shadesmar... You're using terms for things, because I haven't given you other terms. WeiryWriter They are named mistspren in the books. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. So ask me one more time. WeiryWriter Did the Nightwatcher serve as the progenitor of the mistspren similar to how Honor and later the Stormfather were the progenitors of the honorspren like Syl. Brandon Sanderson Okay, I see what you're asking now. I was thinking mist spirit the whole time. We'll RAFO that. More because-- yeah we're just going to RAFO it. BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018) Edited January 3, 2025 by Ripheus23
Recommended Posts