mistborn Investiture with Allomancy

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

Does your investiture decide what you can and can't do? Like does your investiture say that you can burn bronze? or is it a by-product of burning bronze?

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

I guess my one big question is: is investiture the key to preservation's magic? (You said metals are a key, and investiture can be used in place of a metal)

of is investiture the magic from preservation?(You said metals are the key to preservation's investiture)

Or is it both?

Sorry if my questions are confusing.

Sorry. I guess I skipped the fundamentals. IRL we have matter and energy that are really the same thing in different forms and can be converted into one another. The Cosmere adds a third axis to this model - Investiture. After the Shattering, all investiture in the Cosmere aligned to one of the 16 Shards. All magic is powered by investiture in some way.

So, when we say Metal is a Key, we mean that when an Allomancer burns a metal, the "key" is opening a micro-path to the Spiritual Realm (where the bulk of all investiture resides - Dor Excluded) and Preservation's Investiture entering the physical realm takes the form of the effect defined by the "key." When a Feruchemist stores Strength in a Pewtermind, they are draining an attribute from their body and converting it into investiture, then storing that investiture into the PewterMind. When they later Tap the storage, they are converting the stored investiture back into physical strength.

So, the example I gave for the Dor is just an Allomancer skipping a step. Instead of Burning a metal to make a path for Investiture to enter the Physical Realm and do "work" (the effect of the metal) - they have investiture already in the physical realm and simply apply it to themselves and use it to create an effect. It only works with Intent (they have to know they can do it, and how it works) and only could work with a source of investiture that is either of-Preservation (Mists) or Unkeyed (An allomancer would not be able to burn Dor on Sel (Elantris planet) that has not been unkeyed from the Dor in Sel's Cognitive Realm - which is the process Ghostbloods used to get Liquid Dor they could bring to Scadrial).

WoBs:

Spoiler

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yurisses

You once said that Investiture follows its own version of the laws of thermodynamics. The first one is that Investiture is neither created nor destroyed.

Is the second law of Investodynamics that the amount of corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere cannot decrease?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, the idea is that there is a third item in the equations--matter, energy, and investiture. That's the basis of how they work.

Entropy is not corrupted Investiture. The second law stands as is. However, there is a fourth law that relates to Adonalsium, which I'm not going to talk about at the moment.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

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Kurkistan

If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from?

Brandon Sanderson

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

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Questioner

So when you use an Allomancy metal--I know you had mentioned it once time, like *inaudible*... My question was, when that happens, is the metal like actually gone, or like conservation of...

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's becoming Investiture. Yeah, so... Investiture, energy, and matter are the same thing in the first category of *inaudible*.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

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BlackYeti

Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the Physical Realm? About the different states of matter. What determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I've been reading the bits very carefully, and I haven't noticed much in terms of temperature difference.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea for me working on this was that they transcend-- They permeate everything, right? They permeate all life on all the Realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it's kind of like they make-- they appear there in the various states but-- When you say that you've got the gas, you've got the liquid, you've got the solid: but you've also got inside of you, and inside of that plant, and like-- they're everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it's just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distills, just like water. There's some water in the air, there's some that freezes: that's temperature. But it's not always temperature whether it's in the air, or whether it's falling. Imagine a Spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what's happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that's what you'll get.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

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Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

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Brandon Sanderson

The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does.

In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast.

And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.)

TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)

 

Hope that helps.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Sophrosyne He/any]

the part of someone that says what they can and can't do is call the spirited. If 'burn bronze' is present on your web, then you can do it so long as you have access to bronze or the right kind of investiture.

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some (hopefully) useful forum tips and information. 

On 12/17/2024 at 11:20 PM, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Does your investiture decide what you can and can't do? Like does your investiture say that you can burn bronze? or is it a by-product of burning bronze?

I'll do my best to avoid spoilers for anything other than Mistborn Era 1, since I do not know which books you have or have-not read.

As @Sophrosyne said, the metal which a Misting is able to access is determined by Spiritual Genetics (sDNA) which determines (on Scadrial) which Manifestation of Investiture is attached to their Spiritweb. So, for example, when the Mistfallen were forcibly Snapped by the mists - it was not the Mists that decided they would be sicker longer as their Spiritweb Manifested A-Electrum access. Thier sDNA already had that proclivity - and when they were Snapped by the Mists, the bump in investiture was enough to activate a latent ability that was already present - but did not have enough power to Manifest without the help of the Mists.

WoBs: (Slight Spoilers for Mistborn Era 2)

Spoiler

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Argent (paraphrased)

Is spiritual DNA inherited the same as regular DNA?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Inherited similarly, but not 100% identically, to regular DNA.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

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Questioner (paraphrased)

If two people are identical twins, and one is a Mistborn, will the second be Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. They could have different Spiritual DNA.

Ancient Lunch Q&A (July 31, 2010)

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Brandon Sanderson

The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential

Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers.

However, that won't stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there's a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you're an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation's power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities.

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 29, 2009)

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Bean (paraphrased)

If a person took lerasium and alloyed it with Iron and steel then consumed them both at the same time, would they be able to burn exactly two metals?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Theoretically, yes. Because they were using Lerasium. He said it was because it overwrites sDNA.

Bean (paraphrased)

I asked something about if they were taken separately.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said they would then only have one Metal.

Footnote: This contradicts what Brandon has previously established, that there is no canonical way of being able to burn more than one metal without being Mistborn or using Hemalurgy.
Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

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Questioner

The change in how the magic (on Scadrial) interact with each other, was that done by Sazed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it was. You will find a theme. The snapping in Mistborn is actually a repeated theme through a lot of the different magics. Um, but what I felt at the end of the day Sazed would do something about it. So, even though that is part of the magic system, he changed that. The change to Feruchemy is more a matter of other factors such as the large amount of interbreeding that happened following...and things like that. And so a lot of people with Feruchemy sDNA mixing with people with people with Allomantic sDNA has affected the way the magics blend, so to speak. That's not done by Sazed. That's just kind of an effect.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

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Master_Moridin

What is the relationship between blood and the Spiritual Realm? (Since Hemalurgy needs blood to graft the sDNA in a spike into someone else's sDNA)

Brandon Sanderson

The blood being in motion is part of it.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012)

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Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010)

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Chaos (paraphrased)

Since the dawn of Scadrial, why was Feruchemy isolated in a single distinct population in the world, namely the Terrismen? Allomancy, while rare within the population of Scadrial, at least was not isolated to one population, it was spread evenly, it seems. What is special about the Terrismen that only they get the power of Feruchemy? Does it have something to do with the previous Ascensions before Rashek, with the guardian keeping the power for a time?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's all in the spiritual DNA, which is passed on like normal DNA. However, they are a separate people. They've kept themselves isolated, similar to the Jews in our world. When I asked he said there have been some Feruchemical-mistings [Ferrings] in the past, but they are very rare.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

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Kurkistan

Is there-- Can you explain the relationship between Spiritual DNA, Spiritual aspects, and the spiritweb, or are they all just terms for the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson

They are all similar terms for the similar stuff, yeah.

Kurkistan

Okay. So it's not like the core is Spiritual DNA then things as you spread out is all Spiritual aspect?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

Hope that helps.

Edited February 5, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some (hopefully) useful forum tips and information. 

I'll do my best to avoid spoilers for anything other than Mistborn Era 1, since I do not know which books you have or have-not read.

As @Sophrosyne said, the metal which a Misting is able to access is determined by Spiritual Genetics (sDNA) which determines (on Scadrial) which Manifestation of Investiture is attached to their Spiritweb. So, for example, when the Mistfallen were forcibly Snapped by teh mists - it was not the Mists that decided they would be sicker longer as their Spiritweb Manifested A-Electrum access. Thier sDNA already had that proclivity - and when they were Snapped by the Mists, the bump in investiture was enough t oactivate a latent ability that was already present - but did not have enough pawer to Manifest without the help of the Mists.

WoBs: (Slight Spoilers for Mistborn Era 2)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hope that helps.

Hi, I Introduced myself, so if you want to know what I have and haven't read, check there. Here's a better example of my question:

In Era 2 they drink pure investiture to replace the metals they eat, implying that the investiture is the power that you draw on from burning the metals.

In Era 2 they also tap unsealed investiture metal minds that give them the ability to use feruchemy. Wouldn't that be storing sDNA wich would be in identy, not investiture?

Or is there just some big difference between feruchemy and allomancy?

Sorry if it's confusing.

[Treamayne]

48 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

In Era 2 they drink pure investiture to replace the metals they eat, implying that the investiture is the power that you draw on from burning the metals.

In Allomancy, the sDNA determines what metal can be accessed - the metal itself only acts as a "key" to preservation's investiture - much like an Aon acts as the key to allow the Dor to create an effect. It's tied to Realmatic principals in the metal's atomic structure. WoBs:

Spoiler

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Josh

When non-god metals are burned Allomantically, what happens to the metals? Are they crushed into tiny specks? Do they disappear?

Brandon Sanderson

The metals become a key conduit through which the power is delivered. So they are actually sort of vaporized, and the atomic code is a key by which the power is drawn in.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

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Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

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<edited for length and relevance>

Brandon Sanderson

I said it.  Okay, so the thing about the metals you have to understand is the metals are a key, the metals are not magical themselves, except for specific ones. If I've already said that I can tell you, go to Roshar and you could use the metals that are there to power your Allomancy because the difference is in your soul and you're actually drawing directly from Preservation. Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

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Questioner

The metals used in Allomancy are they naturally occurring on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Questioner

And all the alloys as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, the magics would...oh, all the alloys in Roshar naturally occurring… The magic of Mistborn is related to the actual metals' structure being the key. So, you can use metals from other worlds, there's no actual power in the metal. The metal is like a password.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

But, that's just normally how the Manifestation of Investiture (MoI) in their Spiritweb can access investiture - if you have unkeyed investiture (like Liquid Dor) the misting can use that to fuel their Allomancy - just as Vin was able to use the Mists as "every metal" when she burned them - despite them being Preservation's power in a Gaseous Investiture form in the Physical Realm. 

If you read Tress - you should have also seen how the Realmatic properties of Steel and Iron were used to influence the Aethers. 

48 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

In Era 2 they also tap unsealed investiture metal minds that give them the ability to use feruchemy. Wouldn't that be storing sDNA wich would be in identy, not investiture?

Unkeyed and Unsealed Metalminds are different. An Unkeyed metalmind can only be used by somebody with the appropriate sDNA of that metal (they have stored attibutes, without Identity, allowing anybody with that F-Metal to access the storage). Unsealed Metalminds are a bit different, because it includes an application of Feruchemical Nicrosil to, somehow, "loan" the person with the Unsealed Metalmind the ability to use the metalmind. 

In the case of the Dor, it would not be in the form of a Stored Attribute. Compounding shows us that an external source of investiture that has been "filtered" into the right storage attibute can be stored or tapped (that's what the previous WoB mentioned about the Feruchemical Charge in burned metal changing the "key") - so it should be possible, in theory, to Store Liquid Dor (or another Unkeyed source of Investiture) as a Feruchemical attribute. However, we do not yet know how this would work, if possible (RAFOed for future Mistborn books). 

WoBs:

Spoiler

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Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

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Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how.

Questioner

Because I was pretty confused about the Investiture and Spiritweb...

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the reason I'm kind of hesitant of this, [why not you just RAFO this one right now], but it is not a RAFO, because it is like it's a secret. I want to write it out exactly how it happens, because I have it in my notes in bullet points and it's complicated, right? Cause I want some of the things in the magic system as be as complicated as for instance explaining how a computer works right now. You can do it, but you know...I want the magic to start getting that technical if that makes sense. When you say "involve", right, that's a big word. Why just don't you let me, after lost metal...if I haven't released it, you have permission to come to me and say: "Brandon, you said you would release this, you haven't yet [...]" and I will give to you the bullet point flowchart of how you build the unkeyed metalminds.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

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Mojonero

Back before the Final Ascension, if you had a full Feruchemist and a Mistborn, both with access and knowledge of all 16 metals, could they make medallions without the use of Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

If they knew what to do maybe. Much easier with Hemalurgy - but it would be possible.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

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Raddatatta

In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

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Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

 

48 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Or is there just some big difference between feruchemy and allomancy?

The main difference, for this discussion, is that Allomancy is normally an End-Positive MoI - it uses external sources of investiture by default (like AonDor or Surges) - whereas Feruchemy is normally an End-Neutral MoI - it does not lose investiture (End Negative, like Hemalurgy), but it also does not, naturally, access external sources of investiture either - which is why you have to hack the magic some to allow the MoI provided by the sDNA to use an external source (compounders do this naturally, because they have both sides - Allomancy and Feruchemy for the same Metal). 

In neither case is the sDNA doing anything but telling your Spiritweb (and therfore your cognitive and physical self) that you can use the specific MoI the sDNA is for. Hemalurgy is stealing this piece of sDNA from one person and forcefully stapling it onto somebody else (with an end-negative loss during the process). The sDNA isn;t powering the magic, it's saying you can use the magic if you can power it. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

In Allomancy, the sDNA determines what metal can be accessed - the metal itself only acts as a "key" to preservation's investiture - much like an Aon acts as the key to allow the Dor to create an effect. It's tied to Realmatic principals in the metal's atomic structure. WoBs:

  Hide contents

 

But, that's just normally how the Manifestation of Investiture (MoI) in their Spiritweb can access investiture - if you have unkeyed investiture (like Liquid Dor) the misting can use that to fuel their Allomancy - just as Vin was able to use the Mists as "every metal" when she burned them - despite them being Preservation's power in a Gaseous Investiture form in the Physical Realm. 

If you read Tress - you should have also seen how the Realmatic properties of Steel and Iron were used to influence the Aethers. 

Unkeyed and Unsealed Metalminds are different. An Unkeyed metalmind can only be used by somebody with the appropriate sDNA of that metal (they have stored attibutes, without Identity, allowing anybody with that F-Metal to access the storage). Unsealed Metalminds are a bit different, because it includes an application of Feruchemical Nicrosil to, somehow, "loan" the person with the Unsealed Metalmind the ability to use the metalmind. 

In the case of the Dor, it would not be in the form of a Stored Attribute. Compounding shows us that an external source of investiture that has been "filtered" into the right storage attibute can be stored or tapped (that's what the previous WoB mentioned about the Feruchemical Charge in burned metal changing the "key") - so it should be possible, in theory, to Store Liquid Dor (or another Unkeyed source of Investiture) as a Feruchemical attribute. However, we do not yet know how this would work, if possible (RAFOed for future Mistborn books). 

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The main difference, for this discussion, is that Allomancy is normally an End-Positive MoI - it uses external sources of investiture by default (like AonDor or Surges) - whereas Feruchemy is normally an End-Neutral MoI - it does not lose investiture (End Negative, like Hemalurgy), but it also does not, naturally, access external sources of investiture either - which is why you have to hack the magic some to allow the MoI provided by the sDNA to use an external source (compounders do this naturally, because they have both sides - Allomancy and Feruchemy for the same Metal). 

In neither case is the sDNA doing anything but telling your Spiritweb (and therfore your cognitive and physical self) that you can use the specific MoI the sDNA is for. Hemalurgy is stealing this piece of sDNA from one person and forcefully stapling it onto somebody else (with an end-negative loss during the process). The sDNA isn;t powering the magic, it's saying you can use the magic if you can power it. 

I guess my one big question is: is investiture the key to preservation's magic? (You said metals are a key, and investiture can be used in place of a metal)

of is investiture the magic from preservation?(You said metals are the key to preservation's investiture)

Or is it both?

Sorry if my questions are confusing.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Sorry. I guess I skipped the fundamentals. IRL we have matter and energy that are really the same thing in different forms and can be converted into one another. The Cosmere adds a third axis to this model - Investiture. After the Shattering, all investiture in the Cosmere aligned to one of the 16 Shards. All magic is powered by investiture in some way.

So, when we say Metal is a Key, we mean that when an Allomancer burns a metal, the "key" is opening a micro-path to the Spiritual Realm (where the bulk of all investiture resides - Dor Excluded) and Preservation's Investiture entering the physical realm takes the form of the effect defined by the "key." When a Feruchemist stores Strength in a Pewtermind, they are draining an attribute from their body and converting it into investiture, then storing that investiture into the PewterMind. When they later Tap the storage, they are converting the stored investiture back into physical strength.

So, the example I gave for the Dor is just an Allomancer skipping a step. Instead of Burning a metal to make a path for Investiture to enter the Physical Realm and do "work" (the effect of the metal) - they have investiture already in the physical realm and simply apply it to themselves and use it to create an effect. It only works with Intent (they have to know they can do it, and how it works) and only could work with a source of investiture that is either of-Preservation (Mists) or Unkeyed (An allomancer would not be able to burn Dor on Sel (Elantris planet) that has not been unkeyed from the Dor in Sel's Cognitive Realm - which is the process Ghostbloods used to get Liquid Dor they could bring to Scadrial).

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Hope that helps.

Thank you so much! That was really helpful! I still don't understand unsealed metalminds, but I don't think that has been revealed yet, so I think I understand now!