Codex Alera: Furycraft Discussion

[Trusk'our he/him]

It's been a little while, but I read the Codex Alera series at one point and wanted to discuss some of my thoughts for Furycrafting with anyone willing to listen. 

Obviously, this will involve spoilers for all six books, so if you haven't read the series yet I'd recommend you do so before reading further. It's pretty good. I'll also reference some Cosmere magic systems as well, but I won't go super spoilery for that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Windcrafting: I've felt rather odd about this one several times, specifically about the fact that windcrafting can increases physical speed. And, of course, anything that can increase physical speed (ahem, steel Feruchemy) feels like it should be super duper overpowered without strong limitations. 

I think it doesn't protect your body from high velocity, but you can still move pretty fast. Plus, it speeds up your perception, which shouldn't be tied to your body's ability to move.

Earthcrafting: I don't have any real questions about this one. I loved the limitation based on weight (like pewter Allomancy) and the need to touch the ground. It felt powerful, but not overly so.

Watercrafting: this one, I've mostly wondered on limitations of shapeshifting. 

Like, how far can it go? We see Odiana completely change her figure in book one, and spies can appear as completely different people. Isana can grow claw-like nails as a weapon.

So, could a skilled watercrafter change their appearance like a Returned, become inhumanly proportioned? Could a spy or gold digger convincingly appear as the opposite sex? Since hair and nails can be affected, can bones be shaped or strengthened? And, if things like height and mass can change, can a person go so far as to shapeshift into more exotic forms, like a small canim?

Firecrafting: not much of note here. Like earthcrafting, I think it's usually balanced. Lots of destructive potential, but taxing and it can be dodged by well coordinated combatants. 

Metalcrafting: on the opposite side of my opinion spectrum from windcrafting, I really feel like metalcrafting shouldn't be as powerful as it's made out to be. All other Furycrafting types have some external form of attack, which metalcrafting simply lacks (windcrafting can blast you with hurricane force winds, earthcrafting can bury you, watercrafting can dump water on you and forcibly drown you, woodcrafting can grapple and crush you with grass or shrubbery, and firecrsfting can directly incinerate you).

Not only that, but I'm left confused as to how windcrafting is outpaced by metalcrafting's strikes- I don't think speed was ever stated to be part of metalcrafting's repertoire, so how can they beat a windcrafting duelist?

Perhaps I'm being too harsh in my opinion of metalcrafting, but I feel like this magic dropped a more realistic approach to the magic (like in earthcrafting's reliance on weight and touching the ground) in favor for cinematic flavor (though if others would like to change my mind, please feel free to. I'm especially curious as to what other's thoughts on this are).

Woodcrafting: only thing I'm kind of confused about- how does controlling plants correlate with invisibility?

Given the other powers of Furycrafting I guess this isn't farfetched, it just felt a little odd is all.

Overdrawn Furycrafting: we see in book 4, I believe, Amara draw a larger portion of Cirrus into herself than normal, letting her move with ridiculous speed in exchange for severely damaging her body in order to save Bernard.

I think it would have been interesting to see this with other forms of overdrawn crafting. Maybe see Bernard pull a massive amount of strength from Brutus momentarily and rip a Vord in half with his bare hands, or maybe see a watercrafter almost lose themselves learning the depths of a person's psyche to get information. 

Furycrafted weapons: if I remember correctly, wasn't an assassin found trying to kill Aquitaine with a "Furycrafted" dagger? Aldrick commented on it being a strong one, but what would it actually do? Metalcrafting already empowers the user's weapon, so would it do anything different?

Bound Furies: gargoyles are seen multiple times, made from earth Furies.

Does this mean a person could theoretically build an army of Furies to fight for them? How come these weren't used by the legion?

Genetics: given that genetics greatly determine the power of a furycrafter, wouldn't it make sense for High Lords in particular to have many, many children? Basically pull a Straff and spawn an army of super soldiers from a harem.

Not exactly a great idea, but it would make sense.

Collecting Furies: this one's been the weirdest to me.

In book four we learn from Araris that Furies can be passed to others, so wouldn't that mean they could be collected like Breath in Warbreaker? Maybe people could even buy them for exorbitant prices.

In book six, we learn that wild Furies can be captured. Sure it's dangerous, but plenty of things in Alera are. So, couldn't an ambitious individual hunt Furies in the wilds of Alera, growing in Furycraft until they can rival High Lords and Ladies? Or they sell extra Furies and make a tidy- if risky- profit. 

How come Tavi didn't try getting a Fury through these means, maybe become a successful businessman, grow a fortune and buy a Fury from a hunter?

Anyway, other thoughts on Furycrafting?

Edited December 16, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Quantus he/him]

I loved these books!

 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It's been a little while, but I read the Codex Alera series at one point and wanted to discuss some of my thoughts for Furycrafting with anyone willing to listen. 

Obviously, this will involve spoilers for all six books, so if you haven't read the series yet I'd recommend you do so before reading further. It's pretty good. I'll also reference some Cosmere magic systems as well, but I won't go super spoilery for that.

 

Windcrafting: I've felt rather odd about this one several times, specifically about the fact that windcrafting can increases physical speed. And, of course, anything that can increase physical speed (ahem, steel Feruchemy) feels like it should be super duper overpowered without strong limitations. 

I think it doesn't protect your body from high velocity, but you can still move pretty fast. Plus, it speeds up your perception, which shouldn't be tied to your body's ability to move.

Correct on the high velocity limit, at one point a character destroyed their own boned and muscles delivering a super-speed sword thrust.  Normally give bullet time perception but not necessarily any actual speed increase on a physics level, though iirc at one point a character manipulated their own limbs via wind streams to bypass some of the muscle limitations.

Wind also has the True light-manipulation Invisibility (and the Lens-solar fire-beam, as a group effort) and Lightning.  Very OP

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Earthcrafting: I don't have any real questions about this one. I loved the limitation based on weight (like pewter Allomancy) and the need to touch the ground. It felt powerful, but not overly so.

Watercrafting: this one, I've mostly wondered on limitations of shapeshifting. 

Like, how far can it go? We see Odiana completely change her figure in book one, and spies can appear as completely different people. Isana can grow claw-like nails as a weapon.

I could be wrong but I thought she did ice claws but not actual super growth nails?

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

So, could a skilled watercrafter change their appearance like a Returned, become inhumanly proportioned? Could a spy or gold digger convincingly appear as the opposite sex? Since hair and nails can be affected, can bones be shaped or strengthened? And, if things like height and mass can change, can a person go so far as to shapeshift into more exotic forms, like a small canim?

I always assumed they could only do basic/short-term/"natural" manipulations to soft tissue, fat deposts, water retnetions etc to change their shape but probably couldnt do bones unless they were willing to break them first and then control the healing.  

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Firecrafting: not much of note here. Like earthcrafting, I think it's usually balanced. Lots of destructive potential, but taxing and it can be dodged by well coordinated combatants. 

Metalcrafting: on the opposite side of my opinion spectrum from windcrafting, I really feel like metalcrafting shouldn't be as powerful as it's made out to be. All other Furycrafting types have some external form of attack, which metalcrafting simply lacks (windcrafting can blast you with hurricane force winds, earthcrafting can bury you, watercrafting can dump water on you and forcibly drown you, woodcrafting can grapple and crush you with grass or shrubbery, and firecrsfting can directly incinerate you).

Not only that, but I'm left confused as to how windcrafting is outpaced by metalcrafting's strikes- I don't think speed was ever stated to be part of metalcrafting's repertoire, so how can they beat a windcrafting duelist?

Perhaps I'm being too harsh in my opinion of metalcrafting, but I feel like this magic dropped a more realistic approach to the magic (like in earthcrafting's reliance on weight and touching the ground) in favor for cinematic flavor (though if others would like to change my mind, please feel free to. I'm especially curious as to what other's thoughts on this are).

No, I agree, this always felt like a little bit of anime swordfighting worship combined with a general sense of attempting Game Balance (a pitfall BS specifically talks about trying to avoid).  Even if the Metal-skin trick was common and not supposed to be rare (and typically fatal or close like any Manifest Metalcrafting per WOJ), they should be on at least equal footing with most other martial crafters in a fight like Wind or Earth, and probably behind Firecrafters for overall destruction.  My best head-cannon was that metalcrafting let you literally magnetically move your blade so that it would intercept blows without as much conscious effort on the metalcrafters part (and with a physics-based increase to sword speed).  But for them to even come close to their rep I think they should have had more magneto powers and actual Manifest Furies in the form of Blade Squids or Needle Porcupines or something. 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Woodcrafting: only thing I'm kind of confused about- how does controlling plants correlate with invisibility?

Given the other powers of Furycrafting I guess this isn't farfetched, it just felt a little odd is all.

Its camouflage more than invisibility, I think. In theory the plant matter clings to you and moves with you to obscure your presence and passing, but it required a lot of plant matter around and I believe it was considered much easier to see through. 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Overdrawn Furycrafting: we see in book 4, I believe, Amara draw a larger portion of Cirrus into herself than normal, letting her move with ridiculous speed in exchange for severely damaging her body in order to save Bernard.

I think it would have been interesting to see this with other forms of overdrawn crafting. Maybe see Bernard pull a massive amount of strength from Brutus momentarily and rip a Vord in half with his bare hands, or maybe see a watercrafter almost lose themselves learning the depths of a person's psyche to get information. 

Bernard tore muscles in his back using Wood against Earth strength to fire his superbow, and Isana almost lost herself when she tapped the whole Ocean, but those are the closest examples I can think of.  Oh, that poor firecrafter who had to hold back the Town's worth of Fire to make Tavi's flour firebomb trick work.  Poor kids was nearly delirious.  

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Furycrafted weapons: if I remember correctly, wasn't an assassin found trying to kill Aquitaine with a "Furycrafted" dagger? Aldrick commented on it being a strong one, but what would it actually do? Metalcrafting already empowers the user's weapon, so would it do anything different?

If I had to guess, a Firecrafting to cauterize the wounds which prevents Watercrafting healing.  They can anchor Firecraftings to Gems for cosmetic purposes, they could probably work something into the hilt if they cannot put it on the metal directly (which might be a thing? I dont recall).

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Bound Furies: gargoyles are seen multiple times, made from earth Furies.

Does this mean a person could theoretically build an army of Furies to fight for them? How come these weren't used by the legion?

Im pretty sure they mentioned a maintenance cost to bound furies like that.  There was a passage before one of the prison breaks about the fighting ones being harder to keep and/or more expensive, so Tavi got them to use cheaper Owl furies for detection and summoning of the heavies.  

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Genetics: given that genetics greatly determine the power of a furycrafter, wouldn't it make sense for High Lords in particular to have many, many children? Basically pull a Straff and spawn an army of super soldiers from a harem.

Not exactly a great idea, but it would make sense.

That would complicate the line of succession too far, with any adjustment being too far outside their inherited cultural Norms they inherited from Rome, I think?  Better they just have a system for handling lots of Bastards without needing formal documentation.  Also sometimes people just choose Monogamy, even if society wants breeding rabbits.  

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Collecting Furies: this one's been the weirdest to me.

In book four we learn from Araris that Furies can be passed to others, so wouldn't that mean they could be collected like Breath in Warbreaker? Maybe people could even buy them for exorbitant prices.

In book six, we learn that wild Furies can be captured. Sure it's dangerous, but plenty of things in Alera are. So, couldn't an ambitious individual hunt Furies in the wilds of Alera, growing in Furycraft until they can rival High Lords and Ladies? Or they sell extra Furies and make a tidy- if risky- profit. 

How come Tavi didn't try getting a Fury through these means, maybe become a successful businessman, grow a fortune and buy a Fury from a hunter?

I think one of the basic implications of that whole inherent vs Manifest Fury scholarly debate is that they arent sure that manifest furies are anything more than the current user's subconscious. if true then the "inheritance" mechanic is purely an illusion of bumkins tricking themselves into copying a family member's fury form, they'd all just be like the two brothers with matching Lions because they read the same story as children.  Of  course the existence of secret Great Furies doesnt really fit that either. Probably why it's an inworld debate that got so much page-time.

Even if they are real, my understanding is that a given Human can usually only support furies of a given strength (total or for a given element I dont know) so it wouldnt even make a low-level crafter into a Lord.  But other than that, multigenerational accumulation of FuryPower seems to very much have been the secret to the High Lords powerbase.  They might have been genetically powerful in their own rights, but supposedly most if not all of the High Lords had a Great Fury in their homeland bound to their Bloodline (or at least restrained by it).

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Anyway, other thoughts on Furycrafting?

Calling it now (useless for a complete series with no plans for a return) and it was hinted at but never addressed: Im convinced the Feverthorn Jungle is a Great Wood Fury, and the Chidren of the Sun race (which Im guessing are plant-based) the Alreans though was wiped out instead just retreated into the Jungle and has been hidden by its Woodfury powers.  

 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

I loved these books!

Me too!

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

Correct on the high velocity limit, at one point a character destroyed their own boned and muscles delivering a super-speed sword thrust. 

Amara in book four, if memory serves right.

Quote

Normally give bullet time perception but not necessarily any actual speed increase on a physics level, though iirc at one point a character manipulated their own limbs via wind streams to bypass some of the muscle limitations.

. . .

I always assumed they could only do basic/short-term/"natural" manipulations to soft tissue, fat deposts, water retnetions etc to change their shape but probably couldnt do bones unless they were willing to break them first and then control the healing.  

. . .

My best head-cannon was that metalcrafting let you literally magnetically move your blade so that it would intercept blows without as much conscious effort on the metalcrafters part (and with a physics-based increase to sword speed).

Personally, I would prefer all these to be how they worked. They fit thematically and have a much clearer range of ability (if I ever GM a Codex Alera game, I'm lifting these ideas for personal use).

Unfortunately, I don't think the metal or watercrafting works like that canonically- watercrafting was used by Max to convincingly copy Gaius in book two. That requires the ability to alter bone structure, I think (if TenSoon has taught me anything).

Metalcrafting is more a "sixth sense" I think, but I don't know how that would increase physical speed enough to stop windcrafted weapons. 

But again, maybe I'm just being too picky in a story that's truly great overall. 

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

Wind also has the True light-manipulation Invisibility (and the Lens-solar fire-beam, as a group effort) and Lightning.  Very OP

It is pretty powerful.

Wonder if a firecrafted light plus a windceafted lens could laser through your enemies, or if relying on artificial lighting is just too cost intensive to be practical. 

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

I could be wrong but I thought she did ice claws but not actual super growth nails?

I always assumed they could only do basic/short-term/"natural" manipulations to soft tissue, fat deposts, water retnetions etc to change their shape but probably couldnt do bones unless they were willing to break them first and then control the healing.  

I think it's her actual nails, since making ice is firecrafting's thing and I'm pretty sure Odiana was able to change her hair with watercrafting too.

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

No, I agree, this always felt like a little bit of anime swordfighting worship combined with a general sense of attempting Game Balance (a pitfall BS specifically talks about trying to avoid).  Even if the Metal-skin trick was common and not supposed to be rare (and typically fatal or close like any Manifest Metalcrafting per WOJ), they should be on at least equal footing with most other martial crafters in a fight like Wind or Earth, and probably behind Firecrafters for overall destruction.  My best head-cannon was that metalcrafting let you literally magnetically move your blade so that it would intercept blows without as much conscious effort on the metalcrafters part (and with a physics-based increase to sword speed).  But for them to even come close to their rep I think they should have had more magneto powers and actual Manifest Furies in the form of Blade Squids or Needle Porcupines or something. 

Glad it wasn't just me who felt that way. I kinda felt like their reputation was a bit too inflated given the other Furies' abilities. 

Still, being able to cut through most things that aren't reinforced with another's metalcrafting is pretty useful. So realistically, if they can get in close they're probably the best of the crafters in combat.

Except maybe for windcrafting's speed.

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

Bernard tore muscles in his back using Wood against Earth strength to fire his superbow, and Isana almost lost herself when she tapped the whole Ocean, but those are the closest examples I can think of.  Oh, that poor firecrafter who had to hold back the Town's worth of Fire to make Tavi's flour firebomb trick work.  Poor kids was nearly delirious.  

True, he did kill that colossal Vord, so there is some example of that with Earthcrafting. 

I guess the scene with Amara sticks out to me more, since speed is always super busted.

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

If I had to guess, a Firecrafting to cauterize the wounds which prevents Watercrafting healing.  They can anchor Firecraftings to Gems for cosmetic purposes, they could probably work something into the hilt if they cannot put it on the metal directly (which might be a thing? I dont recall).

Sounds like a good bet to me.

Maybe it could also use some kind of direct Fury-assisted attack, something else to negate Furycrafting protection?

Quote

Calling it now (useless for a complete series with no plans for a return) and it was hinted at but never addressed: Im convinced the Feverthorn Jungle is a Great Wood Fury, and the Chidren of the Sun race (which Im guessing are plant-based) the Alreans though was wiped out instead just retreated into the Jungle and has been hidden by its Woodfury powers.

Given how the Icemen were all watercrafters, I'd say this theory has real merit. 

I wonder what the other civilizations the Alerans wiped out could do? Marat have animal bonds and Canim have blood magic. Others were mentioned, but I don't recall any specifics.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

I loved these books!

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Windcrafting: I've felt rather odd about this one several times, specifically about the fact that windcrafting can increases physical speed. And, of course, anything that can increase physical speed (ahem, steel Feruchemy) feels like it should be super duper overpowered without strong limitations. 

I think it doesn't protect your body from high velocity, but you can still move pretty fast. Plus, it speeds up your perception, which shouldn't be tied to your body's ability to move.

Correct on the high velocity limit, at one point a character destroyed their own bones and muscles delivering a super-speed sword thrust.  Normally give bullet time perception but not necessarily any actual speed increase on a physics level, though iirc at one point a character manipulated their own limbs via wind streams to bypass some of the muscle limitations.

Wind also has the True light-manipulation Invisibility (and the Lens-solar fire-beam, as a group effort) and Lightning.  Very OP

It's on of those mechanics meant to scale with the various levels of Crafters, Holders and Highlords. Without Earth or Metalcrafting to balance Windcrafting, it's not hard to do severe damage to yourself trying to increase your speed and/or reactions. It's why, when Amara sped up her reactions to fight the Queenling in Books 2 she injured her arm to speed the strike into the Queen's mouth, but the Highlords dual at even greater speeds without injuring themselves. (Earth nullifies Wind - such as when Amara was trapped in the dirt at the beginning of book 1 - but they also complement each other such as the above example).

More than the other disciplines, Windcrafting is the JOAT discipline - rarely are crafters below the level of a High Lord able to learn, much less master, the various Windcrafting disciplies (Flight, Veils, Weathercrafting, etc.) Granted, nobody foresaw Tavi's use of the Farseeing lens crafting before he did it at the Elinarch. Also, I don't think Lightning is a Windcraft-solo technique - it's a combination of Windcrafting and Firecrafting. As Amara shows in the beginning of Book 5, Weathercrafting for a Windcrafter-only involves increasing or decreasing winds, which she uses to mitigate the Furystorms in Calderon after leaving Gaius' service.

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Earthcrafting: I don't have any real questions about this one. I loved the limitation based on weight (like pewter Allomancy) and the need to touch the ground. It felt powerful, but not overly so.

Watercrafting: this one, I've mostly wondered on limitations of shapeshifting. 

Like, how far can it go? We see Odiana completely change her figure in book one, and spies can appear as completely different people. Isana can grow claw-like nails as a weapon.

So, could a skilled watercrafter change their appearance like a Returned, become inhumanly proportioned? Could a spy or gold digger convincingly appear as the opposite sex? Since hair and nails can be affected, can bones be shaped or strengthened? And, if things like height and mass can change, can a person go so far as to shapeshift into more exotic forms, like a small canim?

I could be wrong but I thought she did ice claws but not actual super growth nails?

I always assumed they could only do basic/short-term/"natural" manipulations to soft tissue, fat deposts, water retnetions etc to change their shape but probably couldnt do bones unless they were willing to break them first and then control the healing. 

Earthcrafting is also one of the primary disciplines for creating Gargoyles, and has a few other applications - but generally speaking every Crafter needs access to their element - it's just that Wind and Water Crafting are much easier since you almost always have access to air and moisture (in your body or environment).

- - -

They were Isana's nails, grown in a way simialr to a Watercrafter's body-sculpting. FoC Ch 21:

Spoiler

“My river,” Isana snarled after the departed water witch. Isana called to Fade, who lunged through the water to Tavi. The slave drew one of Tavi’s arms around his shoulders, holding the boy up and out of the water.

Tavi stared at his aunt’s hand, where the nails seemed to have grown to twice their usual length, like shining-edged claws. Isana took note of his glance and gave her hand a shake, as though relaxing muscles cramped from sewing. Once, twice, and the nails appeared as they always had, practically short and neatly groomed—but stained with spots of blood. Tavi shivered.

Body Sculpting is not necessarily short-term though. Gaelle/Rook showed that once she adopted Gaelle's body, it stayed that way until she changed it again. There do seem to be mass/gender/species restrictions (Alerans were never able to imitate a Marat or Canim - Gaelle was chosen to be Rook's target because she was the right size for Rook to impersonate), but otherwise there seems to be a lot of leeway. Also, we see that some of the possibilities are training-based, as Odiana could not duplicate Isana's trick with her nails until Isana taught her how (whereas Isana figured it out over years of trial and error. . . to help her sewing by snipping thread easily). FoC Ch 24:

Spoiler

How should I know?” Odiana said, her tone faintly impatient. “You tore my eyes out, woman. The next thing I saw was that ugly brute.”

“Then you’re not—” Isana shook her head. “Kord took you prisoner?”

She nodded, once. “He found me after the flood. I had just put my eyes back together.” Odiana smiled. “I’ve never managed my nails like that before. You’ll have to show me how it’s done.”

Isana stared at the woman for a moment, then said, “We have to get out of here.”

 

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Firecrafting: not much of note here. Like earthcrafting, I think it's usually balanced. Lots of destructive potential, but taxing and it can be dodged by well coordinated combatants. 

Metalcrafting: on the opposite side of my opinion spectrum from windcrafting, I really feel like metalcrafting shouldn't be as powerful as it's made out to be. All other Furycrafting types have some external form of attack, which metalcrafting simply lacks (windcrafting can blast you with hurricane force winds, earthcrafting can bury you, watercrafting can dump water on you and forcibly drown you, woodcrafting can grapple and crush you with grass or shrubbery, and firecrsfting can directly incinerate you).

Not only that, but I'm left confused as to how windcrafting is outpaced by metalcrafting's strikes- I don't think speed was ever stated to be part of metalcrafting's repertoire, so how can they beat a windcrafting duelist?

Perhaps I'm being too harsh in my opinion of metalcrafting, but I feel like this magic dropped a more realistic approach to the magic (like in earthcrafting's reliance on weight and touching the ground) in favor for cinematic flavor (though if others would like to change my mind, please feel free to. I'm especially curious as to what other's thoughts on this are).

No, I agree, this always felt like a little bit of anime swordfighting worship combined with a general sense of attempting Game Balance (a pitfall BS specifically talks about trying to avoid).  Even if the Metal-skin trick was common and not supposed to be rare (and typically fatal or close like any Manifest Metalcrafting per WOJ), they should be on at least equal footing with most other martial crafters in a fight like Wind or Earth, and probably behind Firecrafters for overall destruction.  My best head-cannon was that metalcrafting let you literally magnetically move your blade so that it would intercept blows without as much conscious effort on the metalcrafters part (and with a physics-based increase to sword speed).  But for them to even come close to their rep I think they should have had more magneto powers and actual Manifest Furies in the form of Blade Squids or Needle Porcupines or something.

Firecrafting - I think the oft-ignored component of inciting emotion is rather undervalued - though Bittan showed early in the first book what could be accomplished by subtle Rioting.

- - -

I think of Metalcrafting Swordplay (which is a specific discipline - that gets the most page-time, but is distinct from Metalcraft Blacksmithing - shaping and strengthening metal objects) as a very-limited version of Atium. As Fade/Araris describes it, the Swordman is sensing metal all around themselves (like Awakener's Lifesense - but metal-only) including it's path and speed. If you train enough to turn what-you-sense into a valid prediction of a weapon's movement, then you don't even need to see a strike to counter or dodge the strike. It's why they use non-metal, when necessary, to defeat Metalcrafters (like Amara's final strike against the Karma Houdini traitor in the last book, with a Marat Obsidian Blade).

Again, Metalcrafting, without other disciplines, can only take one so far, but it works in-defense because they train for Conservation-of-Movement (a parry that only needs to move a few inches will still be faster than a windcrafted strike travelling a few feet), but very few Swordsmen without more than just Metalcraft can duel at the level of a High Lord that can combine Wind and Earthcrafting to augment their metalcrafted swordsmanship.

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Woodcrafting: only thing I'm kind of confused about- how does controlling plants correlate with invisibility?

Given the other powers of Furycrafting I guess this isn't farfetched, it just felt a little odd is all.

Its camouflage more than invisibility, I think. In theory the plant matter clings to you and moves with you to obscure your presence and passing, but it required a lot of plant matter around and I believe it was considered much easier to see through.

Definitely not Invisibility - and not in the sense that a Windcrafter's veil works (which is also not real invisibility - some light is let through so they can see - like frosted glass - but also leaving a warping in the air that can be seen when you know what to look for). It's manipulating plant matter to obfuscate silhouettes by manipulating shadows and cover material. FoC Ch 29:

Spoiler

His eyes went distant, and then she felt him pull the veil over them.

Shadows shifted and changed in subtle patterns over her skin, as the trees around them sighed and rustled as though in a wind. The frozen brush did not seem to move so much as to have simply grown into a screen over them, and the sudden scent of earth and crushed plants flooded over them, veiling even that much evidence of their presence.

Also, Woodcrafted Veils mean you can't move faster than inches-per-minute without losing the protection, but they also do not impare your senses like a Windcrafted Veil does.

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Overdrawn Furycrafting: we see in book 4, I believe, Amara draw a larger portion of Cirrus into herself than normal, letting her move with ridiculous speed in exchange for severely damaging her body in order to save Bernard.

I think it would have been interesting to see this with other forms of overdrawn crafting. Maybe see Bernard pull a massive amount of strength from Brutus momentarily and rip a Vord in half with his bare hands, or maybe see a watercrafter almost lose themselves learning the depths of a person's psyche to get information.

Bernard tore muscles in his back using Wood against Earth strength to fire his superbow, and Isana almost lost herself when she tapped the whole Ocean, but those are the closest examples I can think of.  Oh, that poor firecrafter who had to hold back the Town's worth of Fire to make Tavi's flour firebomb trick work.  Poor kids was nearly delirious.

Bernard did injure himself over-drawing Earth during Third Calderon. FLF Ch 53:

Spoiler

The grain of the black bow writhed and quivered, even as it was bent, and Ehren realized that the Count was putting an enormous amount of earth-crafting into bending the bow and would be using even more wood-crafting to straighten its staves, to impart all the power he could to the missile. When he released the string with a short cry of effort, the reaction of the bow nearly took him from his feet. There was a thunder-crack in the air before him, and the arrow leapt into the night so swiftly that Ehren would not have been able to follow it had not the morning light gleamed on the steel head.

The vord-bulk opened its mouth to roar again, just as the arrow angled upward, into the creature’s vast maw. The roar went on for a moment, then there was a flash of light, a whumping sound, and a burst of smoke and little licks of fire that poured from the vord-bulk's mouth. It stopped in its tracks and roared again, this time at a higher pitch, and a veritable fountain of green-brown Vord blood spewed from its mouth and fell to the earth in a disgusting miniature waterfall.

“Hngh,” Bernard said. He sagged visibly, his chest heaving in slow, deep breaths, and he leaned against the railing to stay upright. 

<Snip>

He ran a broad hand back over his short hair. “We can’t bog them down like we did at the last wall, because the whole bluff is a rock shelf, and toying with that could collapse the entire bluff and kill us all, including our refugees. I don’t have any more of those arrows, or the high-grade fire-stones, or the strength to shoot that bow. Think I tore something. My back is on fire.” He grimaced. 

Jens wasn't so much injured by Firecrafting, as he was effectively immobilized and strined to hold the Lamp's furies back from manifesting - but yes, at his level of ability and control, he was damaging himself by straining his limits. CF Ch 45:

Spoiler

“All right,” he said quietly. “Frying pan’s done. Time for fire.”

“Bring up the wind!” Crassus commanded, and he and his Knights Aeris faced the oncoming foe and brought up a strong, steady wind.

“Jens,” Max said to the young Knight. “You can let it go.”

Jens let out a gasp and sagged like a man suddenly rendered unconscious by a blow to the neck.

And the entire southern half of the town became a sudden and enormous bonfire. Tavi could see, in his mind’s eye, the boxes and barrels that had been filled with fine sawdust, intentionally manufactured by volunteers through the town and the followers camp for the past couple days, and stored in whatever containers they could find—then scattered still more sawdust liberally throughout each building. In each container was a fury-lamp, put in place by Jens, each tiny fire fury leashed to his will, restrained from flickering to life within the fine, volatile sawdust.

When Jens released them, hundreds of tiny furies had suddenly been free to run amok, and the barrels and barrels of sawdust all but exploded into flame. The dust-strewn buildings went up like torches, and the strong winds commanded by Crassus’ Knights both fed the fires more air, making them hotter and hotter, and blew them back toward the onrushing enemy.

But I agree that more of this would have been great for the story - if the story was smaller scope and following people that regularly did have to strain their limits. Butcher has said that if he does return to Alera, he's more likely to do Alera's past (sometime in the first few centuries after arrival, before Furycraft was well understood and to show some of the Races that are Historical Myth in this story - like the Children of the Sun in the Feverthorn Jungle) so he can show stories with lesser stakes and lesser crafting skill.

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Furycrafted weapons: if I remember correctly, wasn't an assassin found trying to kill Aquitaine with a "Furycrafted" dagger? Aldrick commented on it being a strong one, but what would it actually do? Metalcrafting already empowers the user's weapon, so would it do anything different?

If I had to guess, a Firecrafting to cauterize the wounds which prevents Watercrafting healing.  They can anchor Firecraftings to Gems for cosmetic purposes, they could probably work something into the hilt if they cannot put it on the metal directly (which might be a thing? I dont recall).

It's not Furycrafted weapons, it's Fury-Bound Weapons. FoC Ch 7:

Spoiler

Fidelias tilted his head. “That he was planning to kill you? Were you able to sense it in him?”

Aquitaine nodded. “Once I knew to look for it. He fell apart as you described the role Rhodes had assigned him. We’ll probably find a fury-bound dagger in his coat with my likeness and name etched into the steel.”

Aldrick grunted, rolled the not-quite dead Calix onto his back, and rummaged through his jacket. The telltale bulge Fidelias had seen earlier proved to be made by a small dagger with a compact hilt. Aldrick let out a hiss as he touched the knife and set it down hurriedly.

Fidelias asked, “Fury-bound?”

Aldrick nodded. “Nasty one. Strong. I think the knife should be destroyed.”

It's made with Metalcrafting and one other discipline, much like a Gargoyle, where a feral fury is bound into the weapon and given a trigger - so that when the weapon is used and triggered, the bound fury is released to create whatever effect was implanted. There is not much in the series about it, likely because they are described as very difficult to make and require specialized training not even a High Lord's raw power can duplicate. That's also what was used against Septimus (while other crafters negated his crafting - which is why it took at least three people just to make hium vulnerable).

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Bound Furies: gargoyles are seen multiple times, made from earth Furies.

Does this mean a person could theoretically build an army of Furies to fight for them? How come these weren't used by the legion?

Im pretty sure they mentioned a maintenance cost to bound furies like that.  There was a passage before one of the prison breaks about the fighting ones being harder to keep and/or more expensive, so Tavi got them to use cheaper Owl furies for detection and summoning of the heavies. 

Each bound gargoyle has to be leashed to the will of the Crafter making them, which also means you are weakening yourself for the duration the Gargoyle is bound and active (though, possibly not while they are at-rest). The passage Quantus mentioned was Book 4 Ch 33:

Spoiler

The wall's top was coated in a layer of razor-sharp stone protrusions and dotted with sculptures of tiny owls the size of a man's hand—gargoyles.

Gargoyles were fairly common guardian furies, often used in the fortresses and residences of the rich and powerful, and though their appearance could vary greatly, they all had one thing in common—they were built to be large, powerful, and intimidating. The cost in effort and furycraft needed to maintain a gargoyle meant that they were expensive to keep, and since the Gray Tower was a state institution, economy was a constant consideration.

It had been Tavi's idea to employ a greater number of weaker furies. For an effort comparable to the work needed to maintain a single gargoyle, the wall (also Tavi's suggestion) could be completely surrounded with furycrafted sentinels. The owls were not intended to be creatures of violence, as most gargoyles were. They were simply there to raise a shrieking alarm should anyone attempt to climb the wall.

 

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Genetics: given that genetics greatly determine the power of a furycrafter, wouldn't it make sense for High Lords in particular to have many, many children? Basically pull a Straff and spawn an army of super soldiers from a harem.

Not exactly a great idea, but it would make sense.

That would complicate the line of succession too far, with any adjustment being too far outside their inherited cultural Norms they inherited from Rome, I think?  Better they just have a system for handling lots of Bastards without needing formal documentation.  Also sometimes people just choose Monogamy, even if society wants breeding rabbits. 

I don't actually think that Genetics play as large a Factor as some imply (especially Citizens) - the Fronteir Holders are ridiculously powerful compared to even the minor lords in the cities. Basically, the Government structure is built on this half-truth and willfully ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. Though, it is implied that the Anthropomorphic Theory (discussed by Tavi and Mix in AF) likely plays a part. When we see Tavi learning to Furycraft external manifestations at the beginning of Book 6 we see that he does not have any Furies in the same sense as Bernard's Brutus or Amara's Cirrus.

So, it is implied that a Discrete Fury is generally more powerful than environmental Furycraft - though training and talent can make for spectacles like the High Lords accomplish because they are pulling from a larger swath of their environment.

AF Ch 18

Spoiler

"Yes. You were the one who had the big thesis paper on furycrafting theory first year, and I'll be speaking to the… Board of someone or other."

"The Board of Speakers of the Crafting Society?" Tavi asked.

Max nodded. "Those guys. They're meeting with the First Lord to get approval for more studies of, uh…" Max squinted up his eyes. "Arthritic Beer, I keep thinking, but those aren't the right words."

Tavi blinked. "Anthropomorphic Theorem?"

Max nodded again, in exactly the same unconcerned way. "That's it. I've got to learn all about it by the time we walk up to the palace, and you're to teach it to me."

<snip>

"Anthropomorphic Theorem," Tavi said. "Okay, you know that furies are the beings that inhabit the elements."

<snip>

Tavi shrugged. "We command furies with our thoughts." He went ahead using the inclusive plural. We. Though he was arguably the only Aleran alive who could have said you instead. "That's what Imposed Anthropomorphic Theory states. Maybe part of our thoughts also shape how our furies appear to us. Maybe a wind fury on its own doesn't look like anything much at all. But when a crafter meets it and uses it, maybe that crafter, somewhere in his head, believes that it should look like a horse, or an eagle or whatever. So when that fury manifests in a visible form, that's what it looks like."

"Oh, oh, right," Max said. "We might give them form without realizing, right?"

"Right," Tavi said. "And that's the predominant view in the cities and among most Citizens. But other scholars support the Natural Anthropomorphic Theory. They insist that since the furies are each associated with some specific portion of their element—a mountain, a stream, a forest, whatever that each has its own unique identity, talents, and personality."

"Which is why a lot of folks in the country name their furies?" Max guessed.

"Right. And why the city folk tend to sneer at the idea, because they regard it as paganus superstition. But everyone in the Calderon Valley named their furies. They all looked different. Were good at different things. They're also apparently a lot stronger than most city furies. Certainly the Alerans living in the most primitive areas of the Realm tend to command much more powerful furies than in other areas."

"Then why would anyone think that the Imposed Theory was correct?"

Tavi shrugged. "They claim that because the crafter is imagining a separate creature with a form and personality and range of abilities, even if he won't admit to himself that he is, that he is capable of doing more because so much less of it relies totally upon his own thought."

"So the crafter with a named fury can do more because he's too stupid to know he can't?" Max asked.

"That's the view of those in favor of Imposed Anthropomorphic Theory."

"That's stupid," Max said.

"Maybe," Tavi said. "But they may be right, too."

"Well. How do the Natural theorists explain why so many people have furies without a specific identity?"

Tavi nodded at the question. It was a good one. Max might not have had an ounce of self-discipline, but there wasn't a thing wrong with his wits. "Natural theorists say that the furies of increasingly domesticated lands tend to break down. They lose their specific identities as they get passed down from generation to generation and as the natural landscape becomes more and more settled and tamed. They're still present, but instead of being there in their natural form, the furies have been broken down into countless tiny bits that a crafter calls together when he wants to get something done. They aren't as strong, but they don't have the quirks and foibles, either, so they're more reliable."

Max grunted. "Might make some sense," he said. "My old man had some things to say when I named one of my furies." Max's voice took on a hard, bitter edge that Tavi could only barely hear. "Insisted that it was childish nonsense.

Over the course of the story it is shown to be both - Civilized lands have non-discrete furies and wilder areas that still have wild furies have discrete identities that are, at-least, partially shaped by the Bond itself, as it forms (such as Rill always looking like Isana's 10-yr-old's reflection when she first met her).

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Collecting Furies: this one's been the weirdest to me.

In book four we learn from Araris that Furies can be passed to others, so wouldn't that mean they could be collected like Breath in Warbreaker? Maybe people could even buy them for exorbitant prices.

In book six, we learn that wild Furies can be captured. Sure it's dangerous, but plenty of things in Alera are. So, couldn't an ambitious individual hunt Furies in the wilds of Alera, growing in Furycraft until they can rival High Lords and Ladies? Or they sell extra Furies and make a tidy- if risky- profit.

I think one of the basic implications of that whole inherent vs Manifest Fury scholarly debate is that they arent sure that manifest furies are anything more than the current user's subconscious. if true then the "inheritance" mechanic is purely an illusion of bumkins tricking themselves into copying a family member's fury form, they'd all just be like the two brothers with matching Lions because they read the same story as children.  Of  course the existence of secret Great Furies doesnt really fit that either. Probably why it's an inworld debate that got so much page-time.

Even if they are real, my understanding is that a given Human can usually only support furies of a given strength (total or for a given element I dont know) so it wouldnt even make a low-level crafter into a Lord.  But other than that, multigenerational accumulation of FuryPower seems to very much have been the secret to the High Lords powerbase.  They might have been genetically powerful in their own rights, but supposedly most if not all of the High Lords had a Great Fury in their homeland bound to their Bloodline (or at least restrained by it).

Well, unlike Breath - more does not always equal better. If a Crafter already has a Discrete fire-fury bond, they cannot have more bonds to other fire furies. Also, the citizens no longer use Discrete furies, so part of the Furycrafting bonds are passed, but it only really affects how large an area you can draw from to evoke a Crafting and/or the amount of energy you can process through your bond. Also, Tavi could not receive a fury hand-me-down until his stunted growth allowed him to start making bonds on his own (it's notable that once his ability starts to manifest, he was never in a location that would have allowed him to find and bond a Discrete fury - until after he became Captain and already had at least "1-2 beads-worth" of ability in each discipline.

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

6 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Anyway, other thoughts on Furycrafting?

Calling it now (useless for a complete series with no plans for a return) and it was hinted at but never addressed: Im convinced the Feverthorn Jungle is a Great Wood Fury, and the Chidren of the Sun race (which Im guessing are plant-based) the Alreans though was wiped out instead just retreated into the Jungle and has been hidden by its Woodfury powers. 

I liked comparing this to Seven Kennings (Kevin Hearne, Book 1: A Plague of Giants) and considering some of the applications in that story and what may have happened if Furycrafting were similarly capable - Minor Spoilers Ch 2

Spoiler

Such as the Water Kenning allowing a Rapid or Tidal Mariner to kill by "tugging" the water from a person's brain. Could you imagine Isana with that ability?

I'm also curoius about the future of Fabrial Furycraft (applying the way they make Causeways to other structures, or how the Mules made use of Firecrafting to rival a High Lord) and how that might shape the future confict when/if the last remaining Queen decides to invade.