How long will it take for Shallan to get back?

[Atlas333]

The question is in the title. Obviously, Shallan being trapped in Shadesmar should be a huge deal; combined with our knowledge about a time skip the easy assumption to make is that Shallan will spend that time skip trapped in the cognitive realm. However, I'm feeling less sure that's the case because getting back to the physical realm isn't impossible.

All she has to do is go to Retribution's shardpool. While it's only recently been discovered/created I don't think it will stay a secret for long. Once back in the physical realm she just has to travel to Azir. While Retribution's forces could be looking for her she's a lightweaver and is good at remaining undetected. Even without her powers, she should be able to get there unless the fused/singers are specifically looking for her (something I imagine they're too occupied to do).

I could see it taking a year, maybe two but not the whole time jump (unless she chooses to stay in the cognitive realm for some other purpose).

What do y'all think?

[DSCrankshaw]

I think she's there for the full ten years. Unless she goes off-world for some of that. She wouldn't want to age 70 years for 10 of Adolin's, but imagine her being on Scadrial for 5 years (which happens to be the age difference between her and Adolin) during, say, Mistborn Era 3.

As for how they will manage, here's a wild idea: Adolin can already see through Maya's eyes and communicate with her telepathically while she's in Shadesmar and he's in the physical realm. How deep can the bond go? Could he effectively possess Maya with her permission? Imagine Maya having to tell Shallan whether she's Maya or Adolin, rather than Shallan having to say whether she's Radiant or Veil. (Also, the fact that Shallan is apparently bi might come into play.)

[teknopathetic he/him]

We have some ways:

1. When Shallan was peaking at Mraize, she thought maybe she actually could jump into the Cognitive realm despite regular Lightweavers not being able to do a full transistion. This is either because she has two bonds or because she has a bizarre spiritual web on account of being the child of a herald (somewhat like Vivenna). She may eventually learn to use her Soulcasting or Herald-Baby powers to change realms. 

2. If she finds out about the Odium pool, then she can jump through to Listener controlled territory. Not sure why no one has done it before or how it was hidden on the Cognative realm, but it should be possible.  I know the Odium pool might change or move with the merge, but the whole Listener plotline was that Odium WANTED the place where that pool was. There may be a reason the pool is there that prevents it from moving or the Odium Pool may now be the property of Listeners and is not allowed to move because of the 1000 year treaty, or perhaps the Honour Pool cannot merge with the Odium pool for some reason. If Odium's pool hasn't moved, then Honour's pool may also still work. 

3. Nightblood might be able to connect to the Willshaper powers and go back and forth, though Szeth isn't good at that one. 

4. Lift or Tower Light may be able to power a Willshaper fabrial. 

5. Shallan did save an Enlightened Willshaper spren. That one may be willing to help her or Sja Anat may send aid. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

I think she's there for the full ten years.

 

6 years at the very most, probably less. The in-book author of KoWaT is Jasnah's disciple and Szeth's wife according to the epigraphs to chapters 133 and 147. And her account was written 6 years after the events. Which could only mean that Jasnah learned to Elsecall properly some time before that.

Frankly, her being unable to pull Shallan out of Shadesmar in the first place seems like a bit of a retcon, because didn't she do exactly that back in WoK? 

[Atlas333]

12 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Frankly, her being unable to pull Shallan out of Shadesmar in the first place seems like a bit of a retcon, because didn't she do exactly that back in WoK? 

I think technically, Shallan wasn't fully in the cognitive in WoK, it was just her mind and that's what Jasnah pulled out. I could be misremembering and even then it is kind of weird that Jasnah is a fourth-level radiant but still doesn't really know how to use one of her surges (besides a getaway that comes with its own problems).

[DSCrankshaw]

28 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

6 years at the very most, probably less. The in-book author of KoWaT is Jasnah's disciple and Szeth's wife according to the epigraphs to chapters 133 and 147. And her account was written 6 years after the events. Which could only mean that Jasnah learned to Elsecall properly some time before that.

Frankly, her being unable to pull Shallan out of Shadesmar in the first place seems like a bit of a retcon, because didn't she do exactly that back in WoK? 

I don't recall any of the epigraphs indicating that they're communicating via Elsecalling. Is there something I'm missing?

[Isilel]

2 minutes ago, DSCrankshaw said:

31 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

I don't recall any of the epigraphs indicating that they're communicating via Elsecalling.

 

How else would they have come in contact, leave alone become a mentor and a disciple? Jasnah is in the Urithiru bubble and Szeth's wife Masha is in Shinovar. As she tells in one of her epigraphs, she is a daughter of the people who had lent him, Kal and Nale their cart and she helped Szeth bury Kal.

[Atlas333]

11 minutes ago, Isilel said:

How else would they have come in contact, leave alone become a mentor and a disciple? Jasnah is in the Urithiru bubble and Szeth's wife Masha is in Shinovar. As she tells in one of her epigraphs, she is a daughter of the people who had lent him, Kal and Nale their cart and she helped Szeth bury Kal.

You make a good point although it seems spren are the best method of communication within Urithiru. I feel like it’s more likely Jasnah will figure out else calling but Brandon might be saving that for an on screen event.

[DSCrankshaw]

 

24 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

How else would they have come in contact, leave alone become a mentor and a disciple? Jasnah is in the Urithiru bubble and Szeth's wife Masha is in Shinovar. As she tells in one of her epigraphs, she is a daughter of the people who had lent him, Kal and Nale their cart and she helped Szeth bury Kal.

I feel like you're leaping to a conclusion that the only reasonable way they could communicate is Elsecalling. Maybe they got Spanreeds working again, or came up with a replacement. Maybe spren are ferrying messages. Maybe the shield came down and Jasnah left Urithiru. Even if they are using Elsecalling, it wouldn't necessarily be an application that would allow Jasnah to pull someone out of Shadesmar.

For pure narrative reasons, I would hate to have an event like Shallan escaping Shadesmar happen off-screen. I'm going to wager that when arc 2 starts, she's still there.

[Isilel]

8 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

For pure narrative reasons, I would hate to have an event like Shallan escaping Shadesmar happen off-screen. I'm going to wager that when arc 2 starts, she's still there.

 

It wouldn't make any sense to me if Jasnah failed to learn the simpler application of Elsecalling for 10 years despite acute need, when Szeth learned it in 1 with a Honorblade, which should have been harder. It barely makes sense that she had been unable to do it at the end of WaT, since she had already transported herself there and back once. There could be a mini-flashback to show her learning to do it consistently and fetching Shallan... Or not.

I think that the Sibling and Navani waking up and their bubble coming down is a much more necessary event to happen on-screen, if it ever does.

As for Szeth's wife this doesn't fit occasional communications via messages at all:

 

Quote

Much of what I know of the Knight of Wind, I get from Jasnah Kholin. Now head of our order, and a woman who has shown much patience for a simple Shin bookworm who thinks herself worthy of the task of writing this account.

 

Given that Shinovar is half a continent away over enemy territory, I really don't see any other way how these two women could have come into contact than Jasnah learning to Elsecall over distance in the physical realm, as El's conversation with TOdium proved her order can do. It also seems that Szeth's wife might be another Elsecaller.

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Isilel

[Sedside she/her]

Let's not forget that it's like 99% possible that she is pregnant. She needs to earn some money for the journey, it will take her a couple of months. So the preparation and the journey itself can't be less than a year, and it means that the parturition will occur during the trip. It will make the task even harder. She will either have to give birth in a field with no medical help and no Stormlight to heal, or to find a midwife willing to go with her, which will also cost her time and money. Then she will be weakened by the birth, and also will have to continue her journey with a newborn, which is also not an easy task. Considering all of this, I don't think she will try to do it immediately. She will stay in Shadesmar till the child is at least 3 y/o or something. Or till she gathers enough resources to make this trip with a younger child.

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

She will either have to give birth in a field with no medical help and no Stormlight to heal, or to find a midwife willing to go with her,

 

Shallan should return to the cognitive Urithiru for the birth and at the very least the first year of the child's life. Unlimited Towerlight for healing and manifesting whatever she needs. And also a very good chance that Jasnah would eventually succeed at learning to transport people between Shadesmar and the Physical realm.

[Darvys]

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

It wouldn't make any sense to me if Jasnah failed to learn the simpler application of Elsecalling for 10 years despite acute need, when Szeth learned it in 1 with a Honorblade, which should have been harder. It barely makes sense that she had been unable to do it at the end of WaT, since she had already transported herself there and back once.

Szeth never managed to Elsecall on his own, it was explicitly stated that the Honorblade responded to his need and made up itself for his inability, something that spren can't do as far as we know.

Your second point is more interesting though, she did manage to warp to the physical realm that one time when Wit was waiting for her, so she should be able to move around by traveling in the cognitive then warping back at her destination. But we were told that she can't bring other people with her, so Shallan will remain stuck.

[Sedside she/her]

7 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Shallan should return to the cognitive Urithiru for the birth and at the very least the first year of the child's life. Unlimited Towerlight for healing and manifesting whatever she needs. And also a very good chance that Jasnah would eventually succeed at learning to transport people between Shadesmar and the Physical realm.

Is Towerlight accessible from the Cognitive Realm? I didn't quite catch it.

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Is Towerlight accessible from the Cognitive Realm? 

 

"regular shipping lanes were planned to Urithiru, where Towerlight would also allow manifesting and the creation of food and water for humans"

Chapter 147.

What I find intriguing is that the peak spren city is somehow getting food and water from off-world despite the slowness bubble. It could only be from Ashyn, right? Assuming that the whole Rosharan system got slowed. Because after a couple of months, caravans from out the system would surely stop coming, now that there is nothing to trade and you'd get Rip van Winkled if you go. And anyway, they could have never imported enough water over such distances.

[Sedside she/her]

22 minutes ago, Isilel said:

"regular shipping lanes were planned to Urithiru, where Towerlight would also allow manifesting and the creation of food and water for humans"

Oh, thanks, I've missed it.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/12/2024 at 7:17 PM, Atlas333 said:

All she has to do is go to Retribution's shardpool. While it's only recently been discovered/created I don't think it will stay a secret for long.

Maybe. How is that useful? Are we to assume that the Fused will not learn the secret or leave a perpendicularity unguarded?

On 12/12/2024 at 7:17 PM, Atlas333 said:

Once back in the physical realm she just has to travel to Azir.

Just? That's thousands of kilometers. With a small child in tow.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

On 12/13/2024 at 1:33 AM, Isilel said:

Given that Shinovar is half a continent away over enemy territory, I really don't see any other way how these two women could have come into contact than Jasnah learning to Elsecall over distance in the physical realm, as El's conversation with TOdium proved her order can do. It also seems that Szeth's wife might be another Elsecaller.

It could be possible to cross land, and for trading across the mountains between Urithiru and Azir, from there it would be mountainous terrain probably mostly un-populated into Shinovar. 

What we do not know is if Szeth and his future wife and her family stayed in Shinovar or traveled overland to Azir or Urithiru. Perhaps with Nightblood he can Elsecall and they travel via Shadesmar.  
We know one task he will undertake will be to find the other group of skybreakers. 

[DSCrankshaw]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Maybe. How is that useful? Are we to assume that the Fused will not learn the secret or leave a perpendicularity unguarded?

Not to mention, it's been there for thousands of years, and only a handful of people have discovered it. Ba-Ado-Mishram, Ishar, and now Venli and the Five. All of them seem pretty determined to keep it a secret--I doubt more than a handful of the Listeners know, or that the chasmfiends understand what's been found there. The Fused attacking Narak didn't seem to know why Odium wanted the Shattered Plains (El didn't, and Odium didn't tell him). It obviously isn't easily found in the Cognitive Realm either, as no one there seems to know where it is. It's only been discovered in the same sense that the Dawnshard has been discovered--yes, someone has found it, that doesn't mean that any of our other protagonists know about it or can use it.

[Atlas333]

On 12/14/2024 at 7:29 AM, DSCrankshaw said:

Not to mention, it's been there for thousands of years, and only a handful of people have discovered it. Ba-Ado-Mishram, Ishar, and now Venli and the Five. All of them seem pretty determined to keep it a secret--I doubt more than a handful of the Listeners know, or that the chasmfiends understand what's been found there. The Fused attacking Narak didn't seem to know why Odium wanted the Shattered Plains (El didn't, and Odium didn't tell him). It obviously isn't easily found in the Cognitive Realm either, as no one there seems to know where it is. It's only been discovered in the same sense that the Dawnshard has been discovered--yes, someone has found it, that doesn't mean that any of our other protagonists know about it or can use it.

That's fair, but the final scene with Venli and the shard pool implies to me the opposite. 

Quote

she reached the pool and found the strange too-thick liquid returning. Welling up from the ground. The color was different, a brilliant black-blue. A new tone accompanied it, pulsing to a new rhythm. The … Rhythm of War? She knew its name instinctively.

“What does it mean?” Thude asked her, looking up from where he knelt by the gathering pool of blue-black liquid light.

“It means,” she said softly, “that we have a very powerful duty, Thude. Our little land is going to be important to the coming world.”

“Why can’t anyone ever just leave us alone?” Bila asked.

 

“That’s not how the world works, Bila,” Venli said. “We have to be part of life."

To me. Bila is suggesting something similar to what you're suggesting: the parshendi do their best to keep the shard pool a secret. Venli clearly states this isn't possible. To me, this sets up that the shattered plains are going to become a hub of interplanetary travel. It makes sense too considering this is the only way into the physical realm. In the past it sounds like cultivation's pool was the most reliable method of transportation between realms. Now with her gone I'm sure Retribution's pool will fill that gap.

[DSCrankshaw]

28 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

To me. Bila is suggesting something similar to what you're suggesting: the parshendi do their best to keep the shard pool a secret. Venli clearly states this isn't possible. To me, this sets up that the shattered plains are going to become a hub of interplanetary travel. It makes sense too considering this is the only way into the physical realm. In the past it sounds like cultivation's pool was the most reliable method of transportation between realms. Now with her gone I'm sure Retribution's pool will fill that gap.

Perhaps. I don't think Venli is saying they should announce it to the world, merely that she expects it to become important. Whether that means she expects it to be used for travel, or she expects it to be fought over, or both,  I don't know. Still, I don't think it will be discovered by anyone else right away. For now, I think she, and the others, will keep it a secret, and other people will find out about it in, say, ten years. 

[Atlas333]

17 minutes ago, DSCrankshaw said:

Perhaps. I don't think Venli is saying they should announce it to the world, merely that she expects it to become important. Whether that means she expects it to be used for travel, or she expects it to be fought over, or both,  I don't know. Still, I don't think it will be discovered by anyone else right away. For now, I think she, and the others, will keep it a secret, and other people will find out about it in, say, ten years. 

Fair enough. I imagine that this is setting up what the Shattered Plains will look like after the time jump. During the time jump it's impossible to say. 

The more I think about it the more it feels like Shallan getting back to the physical realm won't happen until after the time jump (why else would it be set up this way?). I just hate Adolin and Shallan being separated     

I would love to be wrong but it feels too intentional to have Shallan in this situation and have it resolved off screen. (It also feels a little contrived right now but I'm sure more context in book 6 will help).

Edited December 16, 2024 by Atlas333

[DSCrankshaw]

18 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

The more I think about it the more it feels like Shallan getting back to the physical realm won't happen until after the time jump (why else would it be set up this way?). I just hate Adolin and Shallan being separated     

I would love to be wrong but it feels too intentional to have Shallan in this situation and have it resolved off screen. (It also feels a little contrived right now but I'm sure more context in book 6 will help).

I agree . . . unless Shallan plays a role in Mistborn Era 3. Kelsier warned her against leaving, as she would age faster than those left behind, but that's really only an issue if she spends decades off-world. If she instead spent,  say,  five years on Scadrial while less than a year passed on Roshar, she'd only catch up with Adolin in age.

Anyway, if she shows up in a significant way in a non-Stormlight Cosmere novel, then that might support enough of an arc that returning could work as a payoff.

Otherwise, though, I don't expect her to return until Stormlight Arc 2.

[Keitea]

On 12/16/2024 at 5:51 PM, DSCrankshaw said:

I agree . . . unless Shallan plays a role in Mistborn Era 3. Kelsier warned her against leaving, as she would age faster than those left behind, but that's really only an issue if she spends decades off-world. If she instead spent,  say,  five years on Scadrial while less than a year passed on Roshar, she'd only catch up with Adolin in age.

Would she do this with a child, though ? Depriving them further from a relationship with their father ? Although you might argue than raising a child in Shadesmare is worse and she would prefer to have them actually experience the Physical world.

[MagicMaggot]

Just a sidenote on abandoning Adolin: Going into the cognitive realm is supposed to be considerably easier than leaving it. If there was a reason why his pregnant wife would have to stay there for an extended period of time, I don't think it would be outside of the realm of possibility that he would join her there, instead of the other way around. Not a possibility without its own hurdles, sure, but well... I'd say he might be motivated to find a way around those. Especially since he'll probably be well-informed about her situation through interrealmatic seon video-chat.