Compounding Through F-Nicrosil

[Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him]

This is my first post on 17th Shard! Something I've been thinking about for awhile is how far you can stretch the abilities of F-Nicrosil. I believe artificial Mistborn and Compounders will be appearing in Mistborn Era 3 and I think this is how they will appear. I know we don't exactly know how F-Nicrosil works but we can generally assume based on the Nicrosil component of unkeyed metalminds that they store the ability to use powers (At they very least the work similar to that). My theory is that if you store a Soulbearers ability to use F-Nicrosil you can transfer that power to someone else through a unkeyed metalmind. Once that's done a person with, just as a example A-Gold can then store store their Allomantic ability in a new Nicrosilmind if they tap the original unkeyed Nicrosil mind. If all these metalminds are unkeyed a Soulbearer can collect them and can use them as much as they like if they compound Nicrosil. (They can become a Nicrosil compounder by either Soulforging or having a Nicroburst go through the process explained above and transfer their power to a Soulbearer). Once they go through this processes to obtain every allomantic and feruchemical power they can be just as strong as the Lord Ruler as long as they have the nicrosil to keep compounding. You can potentially take this further by storing Radiant powers and use transformation to get all the metals you need. 

I think this is a really interesting theory even if there is probably something I missed that will interfere with this. (Most likely F-Nicrosil will have some restrictions that prevent this).

Tell me if you agree with my thinking or explain to me why I'm wrong, I always love to further my understanding of the Cosmere!

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 12/11/2024 at 4:37 PM, Lord Ruler Sylphrena said:

My theory is that if you store a Soulbearers ability to use F-Nicrosil you can transfer that power to someone else through a unkeyed metalmind.Once that's done a person with, just as a example A-Gold can then store store their Allomantic ability in a new Nicrosilmind if they tap the original unkeyed Nicrosil mind. If all these metalminds are unkeyed a Soulbearer can collect them and can use them as much as they like if they compound Nicrosil. (They can become a Nicrosil compounder by either Soulforging or having a Nicroburst go through the process explained above and transfer their power to a Soulbearer). Once they go through this processes to obtain every allomantic and feruchemical power they can be just as strong as the Lord Ruler as long as they have the nicrosil to keep compounding. You can potentially take this further by storing Radiant powers and use transformation to get all the metals you need. 

Personally, I think there's an extra step for Unsealed Metalminds. Feruchemical duralumin is supposed to be involved somehow.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3345

Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how.

Questioner

Because I was pretty confused about the Investiture and Spiritweb...

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the reason I'm kind of hesitant of this, [why not you just RAFO this one right now], but it is not a RAFO, because it is like it's a secret. I want to write it out exactly how it happens, because I have it in my notes in bullet points and it's complicated, right? Cause I want some of the things in the magic system as be as complicated as for instance explaining how a computer works right now. You can do it, but you know...I want the magic to start getting that technical if that makes sense. When you say "involve", right, that's a big word. Why just don't you let me, after lost metal...if I haven't released it, you have permission to come to me and say: "Brandon, you said you would release this, you haven't yet [...]" and I will give to you the bullet point flowchart of how you build the unkeyed metalminds.

What's more, we know that the nicrosil portion of medallions aren't really tapped, but bonded in a similar manner to Honorblades.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331-orem-signing/#e9408

Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Now, given that the BoM could have their nicrosil tapped I think this is either optional (allowing for a more sustainable yet less flashy power, as you couldn't increase the strength of your Investiture by tapping more quickly) or that the Bands could both be bonded and be tapped (the latter I suspect is the case).

In any case, I think some tapping of Connection while Feruchemically storing Investiture could imprint on the Metalmind. If it was the correct kind, such as a Blanked Connection to people in the same way there's Blanked Connection to land of birth, the Investiture might reach out to Connect with anyone holding it, making an Unkeyed Nicrosilmind become Unsealed. 

We do know that there is an effect from tapping Connection and storing an attribute after all, one that Brandon specifically plans to have on page eventually. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362-skype-qa/#e11150

Calderis

Feruchemical aluminum stores and taps a marker that seems to suffuse all Investiture within a person, removing or strengthening Identity. Does Feruchemical duralumin work similarly? Does tapping connection while storing in a metalmind increase the connection of the Investiture stored?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Mostly because I've got a main character who's going to be doing this, I'm not going to spoil the fun or lock myself down yet.

This is obviously speculation though, so please take it with a pinch of copper.

Loved reading your idea, and hope to discuss more later!

[Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him]

23 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Personally, I think there's an extra step for Unsealed Metalminds. Feruchemical duralumin is supposed to be involved somehow.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3345

Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how.

Questioner

Because I was pretty confused about the Investiture and Spiritweb...

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the reason I'm kind of hesitant of this, [why not you just RAFO this one right now], but it is not a RAFO, because it is like it's a secret. I want to write it out exactly how it happens, because I have it in my notes in bullet points and it's complicated, right? Cause I want some of the things in the magic system as be as complicated as for instance explaining how a computer works right now. You can do it, but you know...I want the magic to start getting that technical if that makes sense. When you say "involve", right, that's a big word. Why just don't you let me, after lost metal...if I haven't released it, you have permission to come to me and say: "Brandon, you said you would release this, you haven't yet [...]" and I will give to you the bullet point flowchart of how you build the unkeyed metalminds.

What's more, we know that the nicrosil portion of medallions aren't really tapped, but bonded in a similar manner to Honorblades.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331-orem-signing/#e9408

Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Now, given that the BoM could have their nicrosil tapped I think this is either optional (allowing for a more sustainable yet less flashy power, as you couldn't increase the strength of your Investiture by tapping more quickly) or that the Bands could both be bonded and be tapped (the latter I suspect is the case).

In any case, I think some tapping of Connection while Feruchemically storing Investiture could imprint on the Metalmind. If it was the correct kind, such as a Blanked Connection to people in the same way there's Blanked Connection to land of birth, the Investiture might reach out to Connect with anyone holding it, making an Unkeyed Nicrosilmind become Unsealed. 

We do know that there is an effect from tapping Connection and storing an attribute after all, one that Brandon specifically plans to have on page eventually. 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362-skype-qa/#e11150

Calderis

Feruchemical aluminum stores and taps a marker that seems to suffuse all Investiture within a person, removing or strengthening Identity. Does Feruchemical duralumin work similarly? Does tapping connection while storing in a metalmind increase the connection of the Investiture stored?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Mostly because I've got a main character who's going to be doing this, I'm not going to spoil the fun or lock myself down yet.

This is obviously speculation though, so please take it with a pinch of copper.

Loved reading your idea, and hope to discuss more later!

Yeah the existence of the Bands of Mourning does partially invalidate this theory. I'm wondering wondering if maybe you could hack this system reinforcing your Feruchemical Nicrosil with spikes that give you F-Aluminuim and F-Duralumin and get a similar effect to the one I desired. One thing that you could use is Soulforging a spike to circumvent the limits Harmony put on Hemalurgy. I know that you can no longer compound with Hemalurgy but Marsh's spikes still work so if you could Soulforge a spike to make it think it was put into you before Sazed Ascended there shouldn't be anything stopping you. You would probably need some purified Dor but I think its a easier method to compound then the one I initially thought one.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, Lord Ruler Sylphrena said:

I'm wondering wondering if maybe you could hack this system reinforcing your Feruchemical Nicrosil with spikes that give you F-Aluminuim and F-Duralumin and get a similar effect to the one I desired.

Just to clarify, your proposal is to use Hemalurgic spikes to make a Soulbearer capable of making Unsealed Metalminds?

Quote

One thing that you could use is Soulforging a spike to circumvent the limits Harmony put on Hemalurgy. I know that you can no longer compound with Hemalurgy but Marsh's spikes still work so if you could Soulforge a spike to make it think it was put into you before Sazed Ascended there shouldn't be anything stopping you. You would probably need some purified Dor but I think its a easier method to compound then the one I initially thought one.

Forging spikes in this way would be harder, as you'd really want a more plausible change, and not just any metal spike would have a plausible history of once belonging to an Inquisitor. 

However, if you took a Pathian earring with a charge, melted it into a larger spike, then Forged to to say it was never broken down but was preserved instead, then you might have a usable Forgery. 

You're still going to need a boost of Investiture though, as you mentioned. 

[Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Just to clarify, your proposal is to use Hemalurgic spikes to make a Soulbearer capable of making Unsealed Metalminds?

Forging spikes in this way would be harder, as you'd really want a more plausible change, and not just any metal spike would have a plausible history of once belonging to an Inquisitor. 

However, if you took a Pathian earring with a charge, melted it into a larger spike, then Forged to to say it was never broken down but was preserved instead, then you might have a usable Forgery. 

You're still going to need a boost of Investiture though, as you mentioned. 

For the first part the answerer is essentially yes, I truly have no idea how it would work but a lot of interesting things can be done with connection and identity. I know forging spikes is very difficult particularly making it think it is much older then it is.

Using a Pathian earing is a very smart suggestion that would make it much easier to forge with the addition of messing with the spikes connection and identity along with using a ton of investiture. I'm now wondering if just forging yourself into a compounder would be easier as unless you were alive during Era 1 its going to be a very hard to say that you got a spike before you were even born. You would probably have to do a couple forgeries as a set up to make this thing work but with a good forger and purified Dor it should work. This turned out to be a much more complicated then I thought but then again compounding is way too strong to obtain easily.

Something that I'm just realizing now but could definitely work is stealing someone's Allomancy/Feruchemy and identity while blanking your own identity this should theoretically bypass identity contamination and allow you to compound with no forgeries needed. I've now seen that there is another thread were someone else figured this out. It really invalidates all other ways to bypass identity contamination as it just makes sense. I still find it interesting to see if there are alternative methods.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Lord Ruler Sylphrena
Added info

[Trusk'our he/him]

44 minutes ago, Lord Ruler Sylphrena said:

Using a Pathian earing is a very smart suggestion that would make it much easier to forge with the addition of messing with the spikes connection and identity along with using a ton of investiture.

Thanks! I appreciate it.

Quote

I'm now wondering if just forging yourself into a compounder would be easier as unless you were alive during Era 1 its going to be a very hard to say that you got a spike before you were even born. You would probably have to do a couple forgeries as a set up to make this thing work but with a good forger and purified Dor it should work. This turned out to be a much more complicated then I thought but then again compounding is way too strong to obtain easily.

I think forging a spike would prove easier, as it contains only a fragment of a Spiritweb as opposed to a whole Twinborn's. Plus, with the correct rewriting and a piece from an old Inquisitor's spike I suppose it's not that crazy to Forge an Era 1 spike into existence. Not easy, but crafting an extensive Forgery usually isn't anyway.

51 minutes ago, Lord Ruler Sylphrena said:

Something that I'm just realizing now but could definitely work is stealing someone's Allomancy/Feruchemy and identity while blanking your own identity this should theoretically bypass identity contamination and allow you to compound with no forgeries needed. I've now seen that there is another thread were someone else figured this out. It really invalidates all other ways to bypass identity contamination as it just makes sense.

Maybe. It depends on if the spike's Identity separates it from you anyway, making it act too independent. But it seems plausible overall. 

Quote

I still find it interesting to see if there are alternative methods.

Same here. I usually like finding lots of different ways to cheat the Investiture, using pre-existing systems to make something new and exciting. It's fun!