Brandon is missing great opportunities because of his gloves off model.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

In TLM, Brandon decided to go gloves off for the cosmere. This is mostly fine, since practically everyone has the internet now so they can understand references later.

But because of that, Brandon is now under explaining many important and basic parts of the cosmere since he assumes everyone knows everything already. And that is missing many character moments.

For example in TLM, Sazed casually namedrops Autonomy to the shock of all us fans. It is a good surprising moment, but it loses a lot of that fun when you consider it from Wax's point of view.

He has no real context on what Autonomy is. He doesn't get Wobs. He didn't debate whether trell was Odium or Autonomy. To him, the name doesn't mean anything. Is that bad? No. But it could be better.

I believe this should have been the moment that the context of the shattering should have been explained by Sazed.

Wax: But what is Autonomy??

Sazed: Long before I, Sazed, was born....

How cool would that be?? Our first official description of the Shattering talked about in awe, wonder and horror by someone who wasn't even there. And wax realising that his entire mythological understanding is only 1/8th of a larger whole. His planets apocalyptic tales were a tiny event in the scale of the cosmere. How horrifying would that have been? Wax already knew other gods existed, but this would floor him.

But Secret History already has the context of Adonalsium. Yes, but it's a side book that goes the snarky way of explaining the event and focuses more on the comedic and cynical side of that event.

I still don't know if Wax and Marasi even know about Adonalsium at all. 

And Brandon made the same mistake here in the Stormlight Archive, i believe.

Rayse is dead. There is a new vessel of Odium. Wit is freaking out a bit. We already established that Fen distrusts Wit very much. What should have happened was Fen getting angry asking by why vessels mattered, what was a vessel anyway, what is the difference between a shard and a vessel and burts out,who Wit was anyway to know all of this.

And Wit takes a breath, goes solemn and starts.

"There were seventeen of us...."

This is the grounding context of the cosmere. It is the main event. How do we still not have a single moment in a main book in the cosmere explaining this?(I know it's in Dawnshard, but why would Rysn care much??)

I want to hear Wit's version of the shattering. Is he completely regretful? Or still a bit confused on if it was right or not.

Have Dalinar and Navani even internalised that there are other planets out there?? Wit casually drops this in conversation and no one, and I mean no one has any curiosity about aliens.

Kaladin is like that too, Hoid and Vasher drop bombs about other worlds, and Kaladin reacts like he is more interested in eating stew than about freaking aliens. What the hell?

That's it. That's the post

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

14 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

In TLM, Brandon decided to go gloves off for the cosmere. This is mostly fine, since practically everyone has the internet now so they can understand references later.

But because of that, Brandon is now under explaining many important and basic parts of the cosmere since he assumes everyone knows everything already. And that is missing many character moments.

For example in TLM, Sazed casually namedrops Autonomy to the shock of all us fans. It is a good surprising moment, but it loses a lot of that fun when you consider it from Wax's point of view.

He has no real context on what Autonomy is. He doesn't get Wobs. He didn't debate whether trell was Odium or Autonomy. To him, the name doesn't mean anything. Is that bad? No. But it could be better.

I believe this should have been the moment that the context of the shattering should have been explained by Sazed.

Wax: But what is Autonomy??

Sazed: Long before I, Sazed, was born....

How cool would that be?? Our first official description of the Shattering talked about in awe, wonder and horror by someone who wasn't even there. And wax realising that his entire mythological understanding is only 1/8th of a larger whole. His planets apocalyptic tales were a tiny event in the scale of the cosmere. How horrifying would that have been? Wax already knew other gods existed, but this would floor him.

But Secret History already has the context of Adonalsium. Yes, but it's a side book that goes the snarky way of explaining the event and focuses more on the comedic and cynical side of that event.

I still don't know if Wax and Marasi even know about Adonalsium at all. 

And Brandon made the same mistake here in the Stormlight Archive, i believe.

Rayse is dead. There is a new vessel of Odium. Wit is freaking out a bit. We already established that Fen distrusts Wit very much. What should have happened was Fen getting angry asking by why vessels mattered, what was a vessel anyway, what is the difference between a shard and a vessel and burts out,who Wit was anyway to know all of this.

And Wit takes a breath, goes solemn and starts.

"There were seventeen of us...."

This is the grounding context of the cosmere. It is the main event. How do we still not have a single moment in a main book in the cosmere explaining this?(I know it's in Dawnshard, but why would Rysn care much??)

I want to hear Wit's version of the shattering. Is he completely regretful? Or still a bit confused on if it was right or not.

Have Dalinar and Navani even internalised that there are other planets out there?? Wit casually drops this in conversation and no one, and I mean no one has any curiosity about aliens.

Kaladin is like that too, Hoid and Vasher drop bombs about other worlds, and Kaladin reacts like he is more interested in eating stew than about freaking aliens. What the hell?

That's it. That's the post

1. I disagree with that view on Secret History. Yea, it is occasionally comical,  but it also give necessary background information and sets up Kelsier to become the leader of the ghostbloods. Otherwise, we would just see Kel and think “How the heck is he still alive?”

2. Wit isn’t exactly the most transparent person. He wouldn’t explain about the Shattering except in a passing reference or if it was absolutely necessary. He has already dodged this sort of question.

3. I think they have bigger problems than worrying about other worlds. They are in the middle of a crisis.

4. Kal and Zahel did have a world hopper-ish talk, about Invested entities. And Zahel can’t go too far into the open, cuz there are people looking for him.

5. Sazed did talk about the other Shards; he explained what his Kandra were doing. So did the Ghostbloods, and with that they did explain who Adonalsium was.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

The thing is, there's just so much background and lore and things to explain that it's not really worth it for the people who do have an understanding of it all to bother telling everything to the people who are clueless.

Look at it from Sazed's or from Hoid's perspectives: do they want to constantly be giving the entire background story of the cosmere to every single person they interact with, who will then have thousands of follow up questions? No, they basically just want to manipulate those people with less cosmere awareness into acting in a way that will benefit their long term goals. It sounds bad, but it's true. Wit has said he would watch Roshar burn if it meant he got to achieve his larger goals.

In fact, in the most recent chapter release, we get this beauty of a line from Wit after he mentions that he was on Ashyn during the migration to Roshar:

Quote

“Rock from Ashyn,” Wit said lightly. “Like those carried by your ancestors to this world during their migration. They were fragments of a holy site on your homeworld, but stones themselves took on a kind of mystical lore by association. That sort of thing happens when the world undergoes repeated cataclysms and society gets knocked back to the stone age a few dozen times. Some seven thousand years later, everyone in Shinovar worships rocks, and has no idea why.”

Navani gaped at him.

“What?” he asked.

“Have you told them?” she asked. “Shared their heritage, their history with them? Have you written this down?”

“I keep meaning to…” Wit said, and shrugged.

Dalinar turned the rock over in his fingers. “You just have one of these? Did you steal it?”

“Hmm?” Wit said. “No, I picked it out myself, right before the migration.”

“To Roshar,” Navani said.

“Yes.”

“You were there?”

Again Wit shrugged. “Look, I can’t be expected to tell you everything that has happened in the last ten thousand years, all right? Yes, I was there. Can we focus on the experiment?”

Imagine you had lived for thousands and thousands of years, and were hopping between planets, your brain full of knowledge that would instantly skyrocket the planet's technology to new heights. In that context, yeah it makes sense to try and share information, give people the deets about what's really going on. But then imagine that the universe is kind of in a chaotic tailspin ever since you personally destroyed god and split them into 16 pieces, and that at least one of those 16 pieces is hell bent on destroying all the others and subjecting all mankind to their will... in that case, there are more pressing matters at hand. I can understand why he has the attitude of "Yes, I was there. Can we focus on the experiment?"

Plus, from a literary perspective, Brandon already gets a lot of criticism for explaining things TOO frequently in his books, particularly in Stormlight.

[RedBlue]

On 11/19/2024 at 5:55 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Kaladin is like that too, Hoid and Vasher drop bombs about other worlds, and Kaladin reacts like he is more interested in eating stew than about freaking aliens. What the hell?

The vast majority of people IRL, in my experience, have more interest in what they’re eating for dinner than in Big Questions about who we are, where we come from, and what else is out there.

How much knowledge does an average person have in world history? In their area’s local history? In natural history? Even with today’s technology, when so many answers are searchable by smartphone, most people’s understanding of the world around them is cursory at best. Either they lack the curiosity, or they’re busy with more immediate problems, or they don’t have enough basic education to contextualise anything they might learn.

That’s why I find characters like Kaladin realistic in their non-reactions to aliens.

[agrabes]

On 11/20/2024 at 9:39 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

The thing is, there's just so much background and lore and things to explain that it's not really worth it for the people who do have an understanding of it all to bother telling everything to the people who are clueless.

Look at it from Sazed's or from Hoid's perspectives: do they want to constantly be giving the entire background story of the cosmere to every single person they interact with, who will then have thousands of follow up questions? No, they basically just want to manipulate those people with less cosmere awareness into acting in a way that will benefit their long term goals. It sounds bad, but it's true. Wit has said he would watch Roshar burn if it meant he got to achieve his larger goals.

In fact, in the most recent chapter release, we get this beauty of a line from Wit after he mentions that he was on Ashyn during the migration to Roshar:

Imagine you had lived for thousands and thousands of years, and were hopping between planets, your brain full of knowledge that would instantly skyrocket the planet's technology to new heights. In that context, yeah it makes sense to try and share information, give people the deets about what's really going on. But then imagine that the universe is kind of in a chaotic tailspin ever since you personally destroyed god and split them into 16 pieces, and that at least one of those 16 pieces is hell bent on destroying all the others and subjecting all mankind to their will... in that case, there are more pressing matters at hand. I can understand why he has the attitude of "Yes, I was there. Can we focus on the experiment?"

Plus, from a literary perspective, Brandon already gets a lot of criticism for explaining things TOO frequently in his books, particularly in Stormlight.

I kind of agree and disagree with this.  I actually thought that segment you quoted was fairly well handled(ish).  Navani is a scholar who knows about Ashyn and the human history and feels this is important and Hoid just blows her off which is totally in character.  And also this whole Ashyn thing is mostly meaningless at this point - nice to know if you're an in world historian character, but not too important to the story.

What I think kind of sucks (and what I think the OP was getting at) is that Sanderson is name dropping so much stuff now that is even actually kind of irrelevant to the main story and only matters if you're someone who is trying to piece together all the random bits and pieces of the wider cosmere.  The Autonomy mention for example - for Wax it's kind of like ok? What is Autonomy?  Why should I care about it?  At a more meta level - Why does the enemy need to be Autonomy?  Wouldn't it be better if it was just some random faction on Scadrial?  Heck, a rogue branch of the Ghostbloods could have been a good enemy.  It probably would have meant more to Scadrial and the characters we know in the Mistborn series and would tie in with the idea that some of the Rosharan Ghostbloods are going semi-rogue, it would have been personal to Kelsier, Wayne, and Sazed/Harmony.  It being some random chunk of Autonomy feels kind of lame because we just don't know anything about Autonomy, unless what you care more about is the story of the shards.

I saw an article today where Sanderson mentioned that in the second half WaT, shards start becoming very active.  I think if you're going to be doing all this cosmere easter egg stuff, you have to go this route.  Get these shards on screen so they are actors and characters that we know and understand their motivations and care about them as characters.  Because otherwise name dropping them mostly just distracts from the actual story that is being told in the book.  Make them real, tangible, enemies or allies of our heroes rather than just being used as glimpses of Cosmere lore for those who are hyper tuned in.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

11 hours ago, agrabes said:

What I think kind of sucks (and what I think the OP was getting at) is that Sanderson is name dropping so much stuff now that is even actually kind of irrelevant to the main story and only matters if you're someone who is trying to piece together all the random bits and pieces of the wider cosmere.  The Autonomy mention for example - for Wax it's kind of like ok? What is Autonomy?  Why should I care about it?

Well, Autonomy was literally interacting with Wax directly. It makes sense for Harmony to try and explain the situation to him. I thought the complaint was that there was not enough explanation from Harmony about the detailed history of the Cosmere: 

On 11/19/2024 at 3:55 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

For example in TLM, Sazed casually namedrops Autonomy to the shock of all us fans. It is a good surprising moment, but it loses a lot of that fun when you consider it from Wax's point of view.

He has no real context on what Autonomy is. He doesn't get Wobs. He didn't debate whether trell was Odium or Autonomy. To him, the name doesn't mean anything. Is that bad? No. But it could be better.

I believe this should have been the moment that the context of the shattering should have been explained by Sazed.

Wax: But what is Autonomy??

Sazed: Long before I, Sazed, was born....

How cool would that be?? Our first official description of the Shattering talked about in awe, wonder and horror by someone who wasn't even there. And wax realising that his entire mythological understanding is only 1/8th of a larger whole. His planets apocalyptic tales were a tiny event in the scale of the cosmere. How horrifying would that have been? Wax already knew other gods existed, but this would floor him.

Personally, I think the explanations we've gotten and when we've gotten them all fit with the story lines and with the characters doing the explaining. Harmony is literally being invaded/attacked by another Shard... Autonomy. He's still relatively new to the Shard gig, and he is a little shackled by his intent. It makes sense to me that he would try to give Wax enough of a basic understanding that there is another 'god'-type being out there that is behind the stuff going on in their world. He shows him the red mist as a represenation of it. He explains enough for Wax to get what is happening to his sister, at least in part. It wasn't necessary for him to go into the details of the Shattering or anything, but I think it would be weird if Harmony didn't give any of the information relevant to the potentially world-ending-ish catastrophe that they were facing... no?

11 hours ago, agrabes said:

At a more meta level - Why does the enemy need to be Autonomy?  Wouldn't it be better if it was just some random faction on Scadrial?  Heck, a rogue branch of the Ghostbloods could have been a good enemy.  It probably would have meant more to Scadrial and the characters we know in the Mistborn series and would tie in with the idea that some of the Rosharan Ghostbloods are going semi-rogue, it would have been personal to Kelsier, Wayne, and Sazed/Harmony.  It being some random chunk of Autonomy feels kind of lame because we just don't know anything about Autonomy, unless what you care more about is the story of the shards.

But... that's what is happening in the Cosmere. We were being introduced to Autonomy. We learned that she has been expanding through the cosmere and creating avatars. Each of the shards is being driven by their intent - Odium wants to destroy the other shards and then finally be able to unleash his rage without fear of being destroyed by anyone else, Ruin wanted to tear everything apart and see it all decay and rot, etc. The whole premise of the Cosmere is that there are 16 of these beings (or were 16 anyway) who are sort of guiding/managing the universe and the people living there. I actually think the other shards have been introduced quite slowly, and it makes sense that this pace will start to pick up over time. Why else have all these shards if they are not going to interact with each other or with our main characters at all? It didn't have to be Autonomy, but it was Autonomy. She was the one behind the Set. Idk what the point of complaining about it is other than maybe thinking you could have made a better story than Brandon?

At the end of the day, there is an end goal to all of this, and each story we read is going to point us in that direction. Whatever it ends up being. So maybe to that point, yes - it did have to be Autonomy. Not necessarily because of some really Meta reason, but maybe because thats just who and what she is. Maybe the way things are happening in the story are just due to the decisions that people and shards are making. And maybe we are just lucky to get to sit back and enjoy the show.