Myriad of Questions Regarding Singers

[Muphinz He/Him]

- A Singer’s transformation is bound to specific Spren and the storms. I assume the storms are involved as they allow energy from the spiritual realm to cross over. Would it be possible for a highly invested being to simulate or highjack this process and transform Singers? Can Spren be replaced with investiture?

 

- Singers can hear the pure tones of Roshar. I assume that every planet has tones associated with the Shards who were involved in the planet’s creation? So can Singers hear the pure tones of other Shards on other planets? 
 

- I remember it being said that invested beings find it difficult to leave their homeworld. With every Singer being invested via a Spren in their gemheart would it be difficult to leave or is that just highly invested beings like Radiants and Fused? Would the Spren be compelled to leave the Singer and return to Roshar? I know Spren can maybe exist on other planets as shown in the Sunlit Man but Auxiliary is a special case for many reasons so idk if that’s the norm. 
 

- How likely would it be for Singers to be able to accept other Spren-like beings (Like the spirits of Komashi) into their gemhearts to unlock new and unforeseen transformations? 
 

- Last question, this time not about Singers so the title is a bit of a lie. How powerful are Dragons? In Tress and the Emerald Sea it seems like they can do a lot. Would Shard Blades even work against them? 

Edited November 16, 2024 by Muphinz

[Treamayne]

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9 hours ago, Muphinz said:

1.  A Singer’s transformation is bound to specific Spren and the storms. I assume the storms are involved as they allow energy from the spiritual realm to cross over. Would it be possible for a highly invested being to simulate or highjack this process and transform Singers? Can Spren be replaced with investiture?
2.  Singers can hear the pure tones of Roshar. I assume that every planet has tones associated with the Shards who were involved in the planet’s creation? So can Singers hear the pure tones of other Shards on other planets? 
3.  I remember it being said that invested beings find it difficult to leave their homeworld. With every Singer being invested via a Spren in their gemheart would it be difficult to leave or is that just highly invested beings like Radiants and Fused? Would the Spren be compelled to leave the Singer and return to Roshar? I know Spren can maybe exist on other planets as shown in the Sunlit Man but Auxiliary is a special case for many reasons so idk if that’s the norm.
4.  How likely would it be for Singers to be able to accept other Spren-like beings (Like the spirits of Komashi) into their gemhearts to unlock new and unforeseen transformations?
5.  Last question, this time not about Singers so the title is a bit of a lie. How powerful are Dragons? In Tress and the Emerald Sea it seems like they can do a lot. Would Shard Blades even work against them? 

1. We have no direct WoB on this specifically, but we do have one about a Human using the Storm to become a Singer - which implies that it is not just a large amount of investiture that is required, but Connection to the SR (and/or Spiritweb) which also comes with the Storms (hence Dalinar's and Kaladin's Visions during Highstorms).
2. Not so much each Planet (though possibly) but the Shards that are invested in that Planet (Hence - Roshar has Honor's Cultivation's and Odium's Pure Tones) so we do not know if, for example, Threnody (with not current shard) would have Ambition's Pure Tone, the Pure Tone of the Evil, Something else, or nothing. Singers can hear Pure Tones for other sources, but we do not know if something else (Connection, Breath, etc.) would be required.
3. Again, I didn't find any direct WoBs, but we do know that the Radiant Bond is more invested than a normal Rosharan Nahel Bond (such as Singers, Ryshadium, Great Shells) but he RAFOed the idea of Singers worldhopping to settle on Nalthis. The way that Timbre traps Venli's Envoy-form Spren in the Gemheart implies that the Gemheart Symbiosis is different from the Radiant Bond symbiosis, so I would guess that Singers may be able to worldhop, but if that would or would not require Slaveform (no Spren bond) is unclear.
4. This seems very likely, as Brandon has said that a new form of spren appearing could be bonded and discover a new form - the forms seem to be a function of the Realmatic Relationship between the Singer and the non-sapient Spren. That said, the Komashi Spirits (or, at least, some of them) appear to be Sapient, so they may not provide forms the same way non-Sapient Spren do.
5. Dragons have been worshipped and considered as gods before. Being heavily invested implies they would share similar resistances to anything that is so heavily invested, but we do not have a specific WoB answering that question.

Hope that helps.

WoBs:

Spoiler

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learhpa

Given that Stormlight healing matches to mental self-image (as shown by both the Lopen and by the Reshi monarch), could a really powerful hypnotist change someone's self-image in a way that would affect Stormlight healing? Could a powerful hypnotist use Stormlight healing to change a human into a listener?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible...to an extent. There is a limit to this, but the limitation is the amount of Investiture you have and access to Stormlight—or you know, Voidlight—can evidence this. Transformations that are happening in the storm to the listener forms are involved in this. That could theoretically happen to a human as well. But you would basically—what most likely would happen is it would have to involve a specific set of circumstances and then entering the storm, and then exiting as a listener—that could happen. You guys ask some farfetched things—that one's not so farfetched. It does require some specificity, but it could happen.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

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Menderbug

Is the Well's pulsing a 'pure tone of Scadrial'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup!

Miscellaneous 2020 (Nov. 30, 2020)

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Questioner

I have a question about the singers. If one of them were to reach the Third Heightening, would they then be able to sing the pure Tones of Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They definitely could. They might be able to before they reached that Heightening, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

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Questioner

Is it possible for spren to move from one planet to another?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible for them to get to other planets. They are tied to certain realms… A lot of them reside in the cognitive realm and are pulled into the physical by their bonds--

Questioner

Would they bring the same magics?

Brandon Sanderson

That you will have to wait and see.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

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Calderis

If a tribe of singers were to worldhop to Nalthis, and live there for a few generations, would their pure singer offspring begin to be born with Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Good question, though. Excellent question!

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

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jurble

So there's speculation in this thread about whether the Singers have a Fishform relating to the Thrill getting tossed into the sea...

and that makes me wonder - are all Singer forms predetermined by whatever deity created them or evolution, or can new ones arise spontaneously when new spren are created?

Brandon Sanderson

New forms could exist.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Nov. 4, 2020)

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Questioner

Are the dragons in the Cosmere compatible with the current Investiture systems you've introduced? Or would they even care to use them?

Brandon Sanderson

So, when you talk about dragons in the Cosmere there's generally two branches. The dragons from Yolen are kind of... you can imagine their inspirations as being a little bit along the lines of Tolkien elves—they predate humans, they are very long-lived, and they act like deities to people. People actually pray to them and they can respond through the bond by sending something very equivalent to a Soothing or a Rioting to those who follow them, to bolster them, give them courage, or to take away their fear, or things like that.  They are one style of dragon, you will find dragons that are on other planets that have been created in their image, so to speak, that don't have some of those deific powers.

And so it really depends, is the answer. The Yolen dragons are not really interested in other Investiture, they're highly Invested themselves and most of the magic systems, they wouldn't be able to use, in the same way that trying to Push or Pull on a Shardblade wouldn't do anything because of the high levels of Investiture. They just are already so full that they would not be able to use most of them. What you might call the "lesser dragons", they could theoretically.

FanX 2024 (Sept. 28, 2024)

 

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

12 hours ago, Muphinz said:

- A Singer’s transformation is bound to specific Spren and the storms. I assume the storms are involved as they allow energy from the spiritual realm to cross over. Would it be possible for a highly invested being to simulate or highjack this process and transform Singers? Can Spren be replaced with investiture?

 

- Singers can hear the pure tones of Roshar. I assume that every planet has tones associated with the Shards who were involved in the planet’s creation? So can Singers hear the pure tones of other Shards on other planets? 
 

- I remember it being said that invested beings find it difficult to leave their homeworld. With every Singer being invested via a Spren in their gemheart would it be difficult to leave or is that just highly invested beings like Radiants and Fused? Would the Spren be compelled to leave the Singer and return to Roshar? I know Spren can maybe exist on other planets as shown in the Sunlit Man but Auxiliary is a special case for many reasons so idk if that’s the norm. 
 

- How likely would it be for Singers to be able to accept other Spren-like beings (Like the spirits of Komashi) into their gemhearts to unlock new and unforeseen transformations? 
 

- Last question, this time not about Singers so the title is a bit of a lie. How powerful are Dragons? In Tress and the Emerald Sea it seems like they can do a lot. Would Shard Blades even work against them? 

That's...a whole lot of questions Mr. Or Mrs. Muphinz...

Hijacking: possible? Yes. Easy? Eh...not really. Comes with consequences? You betcha! Theoretically, any emotion or feeling which can be codified descriptively with words, embodied in the musical pure tones of the planet, and then believed in strongly enough by enough people should be able to cause the manifesting of a novel type of spren who's rarity is proportional to the rarity of the feeling. You don't meet gloryspren walking around on the street everyday for a reason. These spren should absolutely be able to be harnessed for singer transformations; this process is normally extremely slow, but Shardic Intervention has radically accelerated it on at least two (probably 3) separate occasions in the past, so it's reasonable to assume that the widespread birth of new novel spren could be artificially induced by killing, replacing, recombining, or just powerfully pressuring/leveraging any of Roshar's shards adequately. War kinda makes this easy and difficult at the same time in a weird way...

The tones from other planets would likely be extremely alien to them, but...yes, singers should absolutely be able to hear other Shard's tones. Even in pure form though, they're not completely universal or translateable, so transplanting singers to new worlds is still going to be a traumatic process that generates unpredictable non-sequitors. I would liken this to trying to teach a cat to like Taylor Swift music. Do cats like music? Artists generally agree that, yeah, they're smart so they must!...And also, Scientists agree that measurements thus far show that they only like musical tones that humans find extremely harsh and noisy. (True story)

Singers leaving Roshar with their spren in tow should be totally possible. It's just going to be difficult for lots of reasons...poor direct access to the cognitive realm, a general inclination to resist technology, Extreme Connection to Roshar, high probability for aggressively bad treatment by other-worlders for being radically and visibly different with no capacity for assimilation (Sorry, but that's a thing most places...), and loss of access to the Rosharn Investiture that literally keeps their people fed daily just to name a few.

Any given Dragons' power is demonstrated to be rather significant at baseline with a capacity for growth. At the least, it would be very foolish to attack one with a shardblade, but you might be able to kill a baby if you really thought it was worth it. They might honestly be able to catch the darn things though, so...that could very well turn into an extremely foolish situation very fast. 

Edited November 16, 2024 by Lewis Nethur

[Muphinz He/Him]

Thank you both very much for your answers! They’ve been hugely helpful. I had the idea to write a story set in an isolated city somewhere in the Cosmere where a Dragon relocated a small population of Singers before the False Desolation and rules as a type of god-king, using their own investiture to change the Singer’s forms thus consolidating power. Whether the Dragon did this out of benevolence/malevolence, and what exactly the dragon gets from the arrangement are two of the mysteries I have planned for said story. 
 

I don’t think what I had in mind would work exactly, but I can probably make it make sense with a few tweaks. Regardless, thank you both again! 

[scientificmotif]

To add to the conversation.. The Radiant bond seems to be replicable with any Cognitive Shadow... and probably that's the case with Singer bonds as well. I mean, the Fused are pretty blatantly Cognitive Shadows, so unless something special is going on it should be possible with any Cognitive Shadow.

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Can a person who dies but somehow hasn't passed Beyond the Three Realms (a la Kelsier) serve in place of a spren for Radiant purposes?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible, but it would require an unusual sequence of events.

WeiryWriter

We know that the Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow and is also acting as a spren for Dalinar but is he able to do that because the "unusual sequence of events" took place or is there something else going on specific to the nature of the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Carluun

If Kelsier became a "spren" for a Radiant, would he grant Surgebinding or Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

 

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Blightsong

Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Could pure Investiture do similar things? I don't know, but I'm leaning towards "no".

[Sythrin]

On 11/16/2024 at 4:47 PM, Muphinz said:

Thank you both very much for your answers! They’ve been hugely helpful. I had the idea to write a story set in an isolated city somewhere in the Cosmere where a Dragon relocated a small population of Singers before the False Desolation and rules as a type of god-king, using their own investiture to change the Singer’s forms thus consolidating power. Whether the Dragon did this out of benevolence/malevolence, and what exactly the dragon gets from the arrangement are two of the mysteries I have planned for said story. 

Interesting that you write that now.

We recently had a WoB, where he told us one of dragons powers. They can manipulate the emotions of their followers similar to how emotional allomancy works.

(dont know how to reference here WoB)

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, Sythrin said:

(dont know how to reference here WoB)

The Sharder FAQ has this info (Coppermind and Arcanum are the bottom of first post), and a bunch of other good stuff. The easiest though is to click the "copy" button on the top right of the WoB, which will store all of the information in your clipboard, then you can paste them in a spoiler tag. Is this the WoB you were referencing:

Spoiler

Questioner

Do dragons in the cosmere have their own magic system? And if so, what can you tell us about it?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll get some answers to this very soon because you'll be able to read Dragonsteel Prime. (And some of you have read that. We'll be doing this as a Curiosity, like we did Way of Kings Prime). Dragons act in the cosmere as kind of this... the Primary magic system that they use is something akin to soothing and rioting, but they have followers who pray to them and ask for them to help them with their emotions during difficult times, and the dragons are able to do that across any distance. That's kind of the main thing that they're doing, other than that they can transform between a dragon and a person in shape. There's a little bit more to it, but I'll give you those nuggets.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Hope that helps

[Raven Wilder]

Everything in the Cosmere contains Investiture, especially living beings, and especially sapient beings. Given that, I'm not sure singers are actually more Invested than your average human - they take in a spren to grant them forms, but without forms, they're the not-fully-cognizant parshmen. So it could be that taking a spren into their gemheart, which grants full sapience, is just what it takes to get their Investiture up to normal.