scientificmotif Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 So, putting together your explanation with how Hemalurgy works, in order to boost a spike's strength with Breaths, you would have to get the Breath to: Manipulate or create Investiture with Preservation's intent and make it Invest the spirit fragment attached to the spike in specific ways Create or strengthen Connections to Preservation All while resisting the already present Investiture.
Trusk'our he/him Posted December 2, 2024 Author Posted December 2, 2024 15 minutes ago, scientificmotif said: So, putting together your explanation with how Hemalurgy works, in order to boost a spike's strength with Breaths, you would have to get the Breath to: Manipulate or create Investiture with Preservation's intent and make it Invest the spirit fragment attached to the spike in specific ways Create or strengthen Connections to Preservation All while resisting the already present Investiture. Yup, that about sums it up. Though, if you can create a Mistborn out of raw Dor and the right program, I see little to prevent Breath (which can re-key itself on demand) from doing so via spikes. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479-dragonsteel-mini-con-2021/#e15205 Aneesh If there's a Forger like Shai who plausibly had an opportunity to ingest lerasium and become Mistborn, but she passed it up, could she create a stamp that makes her temporarily a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson She would have to have access to enough Investiture to make that happen. The stamp saying, "Hey, I'm a Mistborn!" doesn't actually give her the Investiture to do that. She could rewrite her past so that she took that bead. She would not actually be able to use the power, until she got an infusion of Investiture, which could be done with a stamp in the right manner, but most of the time you're gonna have to have some external source. Basically you're gonna have to take a hit of Investiture, a large amount of it, and then use the stamp, and then it will feed on that to change you into basically any of the other magics. Aneesh Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson If you could get a hit of Stormlight, that'd work. The problem is, Stormlight's not easy to get off of Roshar, and it still is technically keyed. You could get it a lot more easily-- Stormlight would work fairly well, but what you really want is some pure, unkeyed Dor. That stuff, you could do all kinds of things with. But, you know, it's kinda dangerous. But that's the stuff you're gonna want, or something like unto it.
Duxredux he/him Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 (edited) Hm... back to the original thoughts on Heightening, let's look at a few things. First, it's worth noting that Breaths are not just loose or passively held Investiture, they are part of the holder's soul. Considering the effect that holding a Dawnshard even temporarily has on a person's soul, I think it's safe to say that Dawnshards operate in a similar manner. This is different from inhaling Stormlight or burning Steel, where Investiture is drawn through the Spiritweb or Nahel bond to cause a magical effect either internal or external. This also seems to be a separate phenomenon from Savantism where the soul is distorted from long term usage of Investiture. It's also worth noting that as far as I can tell, Yumi as a Yoki-hijo, despite being Invested beyond a Returned, did not seem to have any Heightening advantages except perhaps Agelessness - and that can be explained by her nature as a Cognitive Shadow with a huge amount of Investiture. Similarly, I don't think I've seen any Heightening-like boosts for the Heralds or Fused despite also being highly Invested. Considering how designed Elantrians are, I'd reserve judgment on if their enhancements are by a similar mechanism to Heightenings when many of the boosts could simply be programmed in. From this, I think Heightenings may be a specific enhancement of the soul, not merely holding incrementally increasing amounts of static Investiture. Next, let's look at what the different Heightenings actually do within the context of Awakening (at least to start). Other than agelessness, they seem to fit into 2 general categories, sensory enhancement, and Command enhancement. Aura recognition, Perfect Pitch, Perfect Color Recognition, Perfect Life Sense, and Awakened Object recognition all are enhancements of natural senses as considered by Vasher. Other heightening enhance the Awakener's ability to have their Commands obeyed, such as Command breaking, Instinctive Awakening (which this WoB says means that your Commands are obeyed instinctively), Commanding unliving targets (which we learned from TSM is specifically difficult to make such things valid targets), and Commands obeyed through mere word or thought. Perfect Invocation may also fit this, and I'd guess the color distortion is just a continuation of the aura gained by holding BioChroma. Notably Awakened objects have sensory awareness that is used to fulfill their Commands. Actually, considering the similarities between Breaths and Dawnshards, where Breaths are endowed by Command and according to the mythology Returned are Commanded to return, Breaths seem to be closest Investiture to Dawnshards of any of the systems. Perhaps all Breaths are Commands in the same way that Dawnshards are. As we learn from the Dawnshards, Commands really can be bestowed, sit around in objects, be absorbed, and otherwise enhance people and things. Breaths may just be a lower power version of the Dawnshards, where instead of the Commands of Adonalsium, they are the Commands of Endowment, the Returned, or any Awakener. If we're running with this, then Heightenings are incremental levels of power to obey and give Commands, and perhaps the sensory enhancement is part of enabling the target to obey the Command. Still trying to fit in Agelessness. Could be obeying the Command, "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." Edited December 18, 2024 by Duxredux 2
PanicPug Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 Is the agelessness a breath/high investiture related thing though or is it a cognitive shadow thing? Because iirc ageless characters we know are: Spoiler - Five scholars, Heralds, Yoki-Hijo and other cognitive shadows (though for Yoki-Hijo I don't think it applied before they became cognitive shadows) - Elantrians? Would they age and eventually die if they are not sustained by investiture? - Dragons (might be their physiology though) - Dawnshard Holders - Gold compounders (through compounding, not investiture or anything) - Hordelings (though more in the sense of the ship of Theseus I'd imagine) Have I forgotten any?
Treamayne Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, PanicPug said: Is the agelessness a breath/high investiture related thing though or is it a cognitive shadow thing? Because iirc ageless characters we know are: Hide contents - Five scholars, Heralds, Yoki-Hijo and other cognitive shadows (though for Yoki-Hijo I don't think it applied before they became cognitive shadows) - Elantrians? Would they age and eventually die if they are not sustained by investiture? - Dragons (might be their physiology though) - Dawnshard Holders - Gold compounders (through compounding, not investiture or anything) - Hordelings (though more in the sense of the ship of Theseus I'd imagine) Have I forgotten any? No. Agelessness is very different from a Cognitive Shadow. Both are forms of Cosmere "Immortality" but do not have the same cause or effect. The Wob that spelled this out (without, I note, saying the list includes all options) is: Spoiler Iceblade44 So White Sand [then Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Khriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flippin' immortal? Brandon Sanderson There is some time-dilation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal. Faera Implying that some are actually immortal? Brandon Sanderson Depends on which definition of immortal you mean. Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.) Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.) Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.) Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.) Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.) Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.) Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.) And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in. Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity. Shagomir Heals from wounds, but still ages. Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you are correct. Shagomir As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age? This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind. ...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old? Brandon Sanderson Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016) Ageless people are those using Investiture to extend their lifespan (Khriss, Nazh, 17th Sharders like Galladon (Elantrian), Baon, and Demoux - Elantrians are Ageless - likely due to the Shaod causing them to be suffused-with, and sustained-by the Dor (but not confirmed) Since we see other Sel natives become Ageless (Kaise, Shai) there could be some other factor, or they could just be using a different means - Some of the Ageless are also just using time dilation - by remaining close to large sources of Investiture, time moves slower for them there, so they can skip years or centuries on any given planet while only having experienced a fraction of that time at SIlverlight (theorized, implied, but unconfirmed) or other very large sources of investiture (also implied that all of Sel expereinces time at a different rate than the rest of the cosmere due to the Time Dilation of the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm) So, Cognitive Shadows include the Heralds, Returned, Kelsier, Threnodite Shades, etc. - There are different "kinds" of Cognitive Shadows, and the details we have so far are vague - because, based on current data, most of the CS entities we have seen are not just a Cognitive Shadow -- Returned are Cognitive Shadows returned to their own Body and kept there by a Splinter of Endowment; so they are Splinters as well as Sahdows -- Heralds, are also Cognitive Shadows with Splinters, but rather than their own body, Honor somehow made it so that they form a body for themselves out of investiture --- Ditto the Nightmares in in YaNP which are (most likely) corrupted Investiture Cognitive Shadows forming a body for themselves as a Nightmare, or being formed into a version of their old body by Father machine (in the simulations) - Conversely, the Yoki-hijo appear to be Cognitive Shadows of Splinters (as they seem to have been a Splinter before becoming a Cognitive Shadow, unlike Heralds and Returned that became Cognitive Shadows , then received Splinters) -- Threnodite Shades we have very little data on, other than they may have had something similar to breath before dying which is why they become Shades - and those Shades appear to be different than a normal Cognitive Shadow - So far, Kelsier (specifically during M:SH parts 1-5) seems to be the closest example to just a normal no-frills-attached Cognitive Shadow (existing in the Cognitive only, no link to the Physical) - but it's implied we don;t have the whole story for that either. WoBs: Spoiler Quote Questioner Is all the worlds in the Cosmere on a linear timeline? Brandon Sanderson Yes, with an asterisk. There is time dilation. If you get too close to large amounts of matter or large amounts of Investiture, you will have time dilation. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Quote Argent We've always understood Elantris to be one of the earliest books in the Cosmere, but we see Kaise as Codenames in The Lost Metal, one of the latest books. Has the timeline contracted significantly, or are we just looking at the typical Shadesmar time dilation tricks? Brandon Sanderson So, here's thing, Argent. I'm not going to be able to give you strict timelines until I write Elantris 2 and 3. So my plan, originally, which might have been a bad plan, was Elantris 2 to take place some ten or fifteen years after Elantris 1. Maybe a little less than that. But years have passed. It was called Dakhor, in my notes. And then for 3 to be hundreds of years later. I don't know if that's the right move anymore, and if 3 isn't hundreds of years later, then where we slot Elantris in is going to change because of where I need certain characters to be in some of these things, and certain things to happen. We are getting really close to where this is going to be nailed down and locked down, and I'll get locked down. Probably right when we start Era 3 is when all of this is just gonna start... I've promised you guys a timeline. Once we've released that, we don't want to retcon it, does that make sense? So that's why we're waiting to release it. But Kaise does have some time dilation going on, though. Though I say her name wrong because I'm not from Sel. But yeah, she has time dilation going on, she is... yeah. More time has passed than the ten or so years that... she's like what, 7 in Elantris? And she's like young 20s now, visibly, the age that she appears. I believe, something like that. So yeah, there you go. There's some information for you on that. I'm playing loose and free with this until I really get down to writing these. My loose plan is still write Mistborn Era 3 book 1, Elantris 2, Era 3 book 2, Elantris 3, Era 3 book 3. Five years of writing there that I can't even really think about until I've got Stormlight 5 in Tor's hands, if not your hands. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Quote Khyrindor You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term Cognitive Shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (Cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. linkhyrule5 Huh. ... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? Brandon Sanderson No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017) Quote Argent We've seen Cognitive Shadows in the Cognitive Realm (e.g. Kelsier), and in the Physical (Returned, Shades, Heralds (kind of, sort of)). Is it alright to refer to shadows both with and without a body as "Cognitive Shadows"? Brandon Sanderson Yes. The Shadow is the spirit, though, so there is some distinction. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017) Quote Questioner I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect? Brandon Sanderson That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture... And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) Hope that helps Edited December 18, 2024 by Treamayne WoBs/SPAG 1
Duxredux he/him Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 Looking at the Arcanum for Nalthis, it also seems somewhat safe to assume that while extremely rare, people other than the Returned have been able to reach some of the upper Heightenings because they have a ballpark number for the number of Breaths required for each of those Heightenings - 2000 for Agelessness. This number presumably is estimated based on the aura recognition gained at the first Heightening. Life extension occurs for lower Heightenings and reaches peak efficacy at the 5th Heightening, so there must be some gradation or measurable change beyond "does not age" Because of this, I hypothesize that at least some of the arcanists of the Cosmere, likely Silverlight, have a method to view the changes done to the soul and can more or less confidently say that 5th Heightening grants agelessness. They need something separate from the empirical method of waiting for them to die - oh wait, immortality. Testable immortality without some sort of secondary metric, be it viewing the Spiritual Ideal changes, or something else, seems difficult to prove. Notably, Nalthis is a young planet without even a fossil record and Awakening is a relatively newly discovered and researched art. There probably isn't much by way of empirical agelessness, yet the arcanists label it as such. Regardless, the Invested mechanism for "does not age" is not one that I think we have much of the specifics on. Age is a spiritual aspect that can be manipulated via Feruchemy and was the death of TLR. Being an Elantrian is one of the more taxing forms of immortality for whatever reason. This is one reason why I'm not sure how to tie it in with the rest of the Heightenings.
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