Why did Odium ask permission to Settle on Roshar?

[listerfeend]

Quote

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

Ok, first I need to define the term I think matters here. Specifically, the term "Settled".

Settled: to establish a community or to inhabit and develop a previously unoccupied or sparsely populated area.

In the context of a Shard, settling and Invested are synonymous. We know for a fact that Odium had no desire to Invest in any system, he was actively trying to avoid that. So, why would Odium get permission to Settle anywhere? This WoB seems to be indicating that he asked and got permission to stay in the Rosharan system, but it could be applied to other systems he's been to (Sel, for instance). These two things, Odium's desire to stay un-Invested and free, but also asking permission to settle anywhere, don't seem to work together logically. 

[Returned he/him]

I think the answer is that Rayse had other goals and that in the course of pursuing them he was compelled somehow to Invest himself. We don't know a whole lot about his plans and hopes, but one of the things we do know that he is hunting other Shards. My feeling is that he ended up Investing on Roshar more than he had hoped or intended to, perhaps in part of an effort to destroy Honor and/or Cultivation. The result on Roshar is that he became too Invested there to leave, hence all of the "trapped" and "prison" verbiage we see knowledgeable Cosmere figures use to describe him.

We know that Rayse was successful in destroying other Shards in other places before Roshar, so he must have been able to do so without Investing himself there enough to be trapped, or extricated himself somehow. My sketchy outline of events, based on what we know so far, is that Odium was Invested to some degree on Ashyn and probably had some influence on the humans there. When they migrated to Roshar Odium came with them (freely choosing to do so or not), and this is probably where the permission came into play. On Roshar the humans then re-aligned themselves with Cultivation and especially Honor, and out of necessity, convenience, or spite Odium then began to interfere with the Singers. That interference ultimately led to many of the Singers becoming semi-immortal, spren-like entities, which required or entailed them becoming "permeated with his essence". I don't know if any major, departure-preventing Investment took place earlier but at that point Odium was probably too attached to leave the system easily.

But really, who knows? We still have very little information on how Shards operate and interact with each other, and not much information on Roshar during the relevant time periods. I think that "asking permission" to settle somewhere (from the WoB) might be over-interpreted here, and we have a small amount of evidence that this is the case (The Lost Metal spoiler):

Spoiler

Autonomy was trying to Invest herself on Scadrial pretty aggressively in The Lost Metal. Certainly she did not do something like formally ask Harmony for permission to do so, and then get that permission. Harmony is very opposed to Autonomy's attempted invasion, and Autonomy's plan literally is to invade Scadrial with a military force to conquer it. It seems like the sequence of events was to recruit individuals on Scadrial and then use those people as agents to actually bring enough of Autonomy's Shardic essence there, not just show up herself and go toe-to-toe with Harmony.

Autonomy may be a special case, though, in that she seems to be able to manifest avatars of herself in various places. That's in line with her theme, and some of what she does that involves that theme may not apply to other Shards.

 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, listerfeend said:

These two things, Odium's desire to stay un-Invested and free, but also asking permission to settle anywhere, don't seem to work together logically. 

I think the more relevant part of the WoB is here:

Spoiler

(If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.)

My personal theory, based on current evidence is:

• Odium influces Ashynites to create a cataclysm (not invested in the system)
  • Likely through misuse of a Dawnshard
  • Ashynites relocate to Roshar as refugees
  • Time passes with Humans only in Shinovar
• Honor (possibly with Cultivation) uses this event to "hook" Odium to Ashyn and/or Braize
• All three, together, realize the above clause and that his presence will cause Bad Things (tm) If he is both present (unable to leave) and unInvested
  • They agree Odium gets to Invest in Braize since he cannot leave the Rosharan System
• Odium uses this to start causing Singer/Human conflict and escalate into the Desolations
  • likely hoping Honor would release the hook and let him leave if he caused enough trouble
  • note that "Voidbringers" and Unmade display the "purple" or red-corrupted (Honor) blue, rather than the Gold or Red-Gold of Odium's true Investiture color
• Desolations, Heralds, Fused, etc. - as we know it
• Eventually in "modern" day we have the Stones' revelation to Venli - Odium's tone is now a Pure Tone of Roshar.

 

 

[listerfeend]

On 11/8/2024 at 2:04 PM, Treamayne said:

My personal theory, based on current evidence is:

• Odium influces Ashynites to create a cataclysm (not invested in the system)
  • Likely through misuse of a Dawnshard
  • Ashynites relocate to Roshar as refugees
  • Time passes with Humans only in Shinovar
• Honor (possibly with Cultivation) uses this event to "hook" Odium to Ashyn and/or Braize
• All three, together, realize the above clause and that his presence will cause Bad Things (tm) If he is both present (unable to leave) and unInvested
  • They agree Odium gets to Invest in Braize since he cannot leave the Rosharan System
• Odium uses this to start causing Singer/Human conflict and escalate into the Desolations
  • likely hoping Honor would release the hook and let him leave if he caused enough trouble
  • note that "Voidbringers" and Unmade display the "purple" or red-corrupted (Honor) blue, rather than the Gold or Red-Gold of Odium's true Investiture color
• Desolations, Heralds, Fused, etc. - as we know it
• Eventually in "modern" day we have the Stones' revelation to Venli - Odium's tone is now a Pure Tone of Roshar.

This seems logical to me, this whole question really started because @CtrlAltDepressed and I have had many arguments about whether or not this WoB applies to Odium in the other Systems. To me the WoB indicates that Odium needed permission to settle (Read: Invest) in Rosharran system, but @CtrlAltDepressed reads this to imply that Odium got permission on Sel, and with Ambition in the Threnody system. I don't read "settle" to mean "visit" or be in proximity to, and I don't think Odium would have had to have gotten permission anywhere else, considering his motive was to NOT get Invested any where. He can correct my paraphrasing of his position if he'd like to

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

This seems logical to me, this whole question really started because @CtrlAltDepressed and I have had many arguments about whether or not this WoB applies to Odium in the other Systems. To me the WoB indicates that Odium needed permission to settle (Read: Invest) in Rosharran system, but @CtrlAltDepressed reads this to imply that Odium got permission on Sel, and with Ambition in the Threnody system.

It is more likely the former, because it is implied that the "weakness" ( WoB wording: a little bit of power over one another) is partially how Odium was able to attack the other shards (with the possible exception of the Ambition/Mercy/Threnody thing we still do not understand. Ambition was target #1, but he may have been wounded in that fight because Ambition did not have the same "problem" as di-shardic worlds like Sel, Roshar and Scadrial (where he was planning to go next had he not been trapped on Roshar)). 

WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Quote

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

[AleStaar he/him]

Just going to put this in the bookmarks. I would like to discuss this after I read through Stormlight (which is starting very soon). Though honestly, not sure if that discussion should be after Stormlight 4 or 5 lmao.