On Shallan's Oaths

[RandomCable he/him]

What if Shallan is swearing Half-Oaths?
Instead of the usual groundbreaking lifechanging massive realisations of the other Radiants, Shallan's oaths seem... too easy. Too simple. Yes, I realise she is lying to herself, so incorporating those truths into herself is important for her growth as a person blah blah blah... but it really seems too easy. And knowing Sanderson, this makes me suspicious.

All the other Oaths we've seen have been things the characters have needed to do better. Save others, accept the way things are, change their selves. But Shallan's? "What am I? I am afraid." "I killed my mother." "I killed my father." All really... vague and simple compared to things like "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." "I will free those in bondage." That kinda thing
 

Spoiler

Also I know that people theorise that she has oaths for both of her spren but I still suspect something else.

Any other thoughts on the matter will be appreciated

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

I don't totally agree. Shallan's personal war is rooted in an inverted form of struggle from people like Kaladin's; that doesn't make it less difficult. Kaladin's oaths, for example, largely place governance over his actions at any given time under the determination of an external combination of control factors in that he shall generally strive to do whatever is required to prevent someone else from being prevented from doing something they wanted, in progressively more restrictive terms. Whereas Shallan is coping with the evil and horrible things that she has knowingly had to do in order to stay alive that have made her wish she were dead to the point of blanking out parts of her memory.

Edit: and like...just to be clear, Kaladin murdered waaaaayyyy more people, for waaaaaayyyy worse reasons than Shallan...lol. if anything, he's who is getting off easy...

Edited October 13, 2024 by hwiles

[Returned he/him]

It's explicitly stated in one of the epigrams attributed to Words of Radiance (and in Words of Radiance) that Lightweavers' Oaths bring them to self-awareness, and that their Oaths are different from those of the other orders in being more liberally considered. The other Oaths we've seen are more about what the Radiant must do, developing their views of how they should interact with external events, while Lightweavers (with what little evidence we have) seem to develop an understanding of who and what they are. It's less about the particular fact that she's admitting is true being Earth-shattering. I'm not sure the Oaths are really supposed to be the same, and the implication I've drawn is that budding Lightweavers are limited by their commitment to the lies they tell themselves about themselves, which is different from, say, a Windrunner being uncertain what "protecting others" really means in practice and so not being able to identify and do the "right" thing.

At this point we know that Shallan is such an unreliable narrator and window into Radiance that I hesitate to assume her progression is normal for Lightweavers, but I would argue that her truths are at least as significant as Kaladin's and Dalinar's. The situation that led to her killing her father meant that she was at the center of her family's misery, and killing her father was perhaps less of a solution to that misery than it was a choice of a path forward. Shallan being the kind of person who could and would do that is a pretty core part of a lot of what she's done since admitting that to herself, and I feel it's on par with Kaladin realizing he needs to protect Elhokar even though he hated the man.

All that said, I agree with you that there is something going on with Shallan for sure. I don't know if we have any basis for half-Oaths being a thing that a person can do and still gain powers, but I think that whatever she's dealing with is well outside of things we've seen other characters handle in their progressions. I could imagine her being 4th or even 5th Oathed but faking being a new Radiant so thoroughly that she herself is deceived, or a Herald whose mind is broken enough to think she's this girl called Shallan, to having Oaths with multiple spren, to things I haven't even imagined yet. Wind and Truth is still so far away, it's maddening!

[Treamayne]

28 minutes ago, Returned said:

The other Oaths we've seen are more about what the Radiant must do, developing their views of how they should interact with external events, while Lightweavers (with what little evidence we have) seem to develop an understanding of who and what they are.

From the Radiant Order Synopses:

Spoiler

Lightweaver oaths are an oddity, perhaps because their spren tend to be the oddest among all Radiant spren. Instead of speaking specific words, or even words along a certain theme, Lightweavers speak truths about themselves—things they must admit to themselves in order to progress as people. It is theorized that because Lightweavers live on the line between reality and fiction, it is important for them to be able to separate the real from the lie, and only with the proper ability to do so can they move forward.

From the SayTheWords WoB:

Spoiler

Dan Wells

Sixth Epoch, Year 31, Palahabach 5.7.3.

Lightweavers

And now it's time is the strangest Order, and I can say that with authority because studying this Order is what got me selected for this project in the first place. The Lightweavers are strange not just because they are artists, renowned the world over for their stubborn refusal to act like everybody else, but because they don't worry so much about the things that most concern the other Orders. They don't tie themselves to rules or rituals, or even oaths. I mean, they call them oaths, but really they're just truths. And they're not bogged down trying to find the great truths like the Truthwatchers do; they're just acknowledging truths about themselves, as individuals. The other Orders stand on ceremony or tradition, or arcane systems of laws and rights and organizations. Lightweavers just get the job done in whatever way's best, beholden to no one but themselves. And they use art to do it.

I think a lot about their oaths. Why speak truths about themselves? I have a theory. First of all, it's important to know who we are. That's true for everybody, but I think it's especially true for artists, because they live their lives in fiction. Lightweavers are the spies of the Radiant Orders, skilled in subterfuge and trickery. A Lightweaver spy might have to spend days, or even years, pretending to be someone they're not. What keeps them grounded to reality? Core truths about themselves. When you know who you are, you can see the world through others' eyes. This helps you to infiltrate an enemy organization, sure, but it also helps you to understand people, to empathize with their needs and fears and desires, and thus give vital context to actions and decisions that might seem ludicrous otherwise. When you can put yourself in someone else's shoes, and see the world as they see it, and still come back to yourself, you find a perspective that's impossible to get in any other way.

#SayTheWords (Jan. 31, 2024)

Hope that helps

[RandomCable he/him]

Oh yeah @hwiles, That's a good point. For some reason I forgot that Shallan was blocking her memories, of which also makes the Truths she's speaking at the same time admitting that she's lying to herself, and like @Returned says there, its about self-awareness. Which is interesting to think about.
and with @Treamayne's ideas, there's also the grounding aspect. Hmm, intriguing...

Thanks for your ideas, people! 'Twas helpful for understanding the greater perspective.  

[Returned he/him]

I'm curious about what others think on this, which has occurred to me on my pre-Wind and Truth re-read of the series, and this thread brought to mind:

The nature and progression of Oaths seems different for Lightweavers compared with the other Orders. But the generic problems that Radiance addresses (variably described as brokenness or trauma severe enough to cause cracks in a person's Spiritweb) do not obviously vary in a similar way. That is, Shallan's traumas (as far as I am aware of them at this point) don't seem radically different from Kaladin's, Dalinar's, or Venli's. So the main question I have is: do people agree with this assessment, that the traumas are similar for members of these Orders but the development towards Radiance is not, at least between Lightweavers and the rest?

If there are differences, how might those be expressed in the world? If Shallan were a Windrunner instead, would her 5th-Oath self be different in some meaningful way from the Lightweaver version in terms of repairing her Spiritweb or addressing her traumas? Might one be more fully restored than another, or could the quality of the re-forging differ if one is less suited to an Order but still progress to a given Ideal?

Further, could the question even be meaningful in the first place? I still think that 5th Oath Radiants are going to be pretty rare, and perhaps not only will just a few people be capable of reaching that point but the possibility will exist only if they end up in the "right" Order for them? I wonder if Malchin might have been better served in an Order other than the Lightweavers, and if so how did he wind up as one instead?

I used to trust Radiant sprens' judgement on selecting people to bond, but maybe they're looking first for someone damaged enough to bond and the specific attributes that make them a fit for a given Order is more secondary, or perhaps even less meaningful than that. Hoid might be a good example to think on, because while Lightweaving seems like an obvious Order for him it seems more like he took the spren that was available and Design was just... resigned to bonding someone who was at least minimally passable, since she'd already crossed realms and had suffered the attendant damage.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

But the generic problems that Radiance addresses (variably described as brokenness or trauma severe enough to cause cracks in a person's Spiritweb) do not obviously vary in a similar way. That is, Shallan's traumas (as far as I am aware of them at this point) don't seem radically different from Kaladin's, Dalinar's, or Venli's. So the main question I have is: do people agree with this assessment, that the traumas are similar for members of these Orders but the development towards Radiance is not, at least between Lightweavers and the rest?

First, please note that "being broken" (trauma) is not necessarily required:

Spoiler

Edited for length and relevance

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, you are right on target.

Do note that the idea that a person needs to be somehow 'broken' is an in-world theory that isn't 100% validated by the people chosen as Radiants. People have, however, noticed a trend in-world, which is valid.

General Reddit 2019 (July 17, 2019)

Second, I think Shallan is an exception to many things, for many reasons. I would posit that nothing (or almost nothing) about Shallan's journey can be extrapolated to other Lightweavers.

That said, I do not think the progression of Lightweaver truths is significantly different from other orders - because, when you think about it, all Oaths (seen so far) are a form of self-actualization and personal epiphany. The other order's Oaths are just more regimented in what steps are needed. 

For example, Kaladin's third Oath (I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right) is really just "I'm prejudiced, and I need to stop that" in different words. It's an acknowledgement of personal truth and overcoming a personal bias that affected his ability to "protect." Likewise, Szeth's third oath (I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath) more explicitly showed this connection in text when he said (Ch 119):

Spoiler

“I serve Dalinar Kholin,” Szeth-son-son-Vallano whispered. His face, for some reason, was streaked with grey. “I cannot know truth, so I follow one who does.”

FWIW. Hope that helps.

[Returned he/him]

On 10/15/2024 at 5:28 PM, Treamayne said:

First, please note that "being broken" (trauma) is not necessarily required:

  Hide contents

Edited for length and relevance

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, you are right on target.

Do note that the idea that a person needs to be somehow 'broken' is an in-world theory that isn't 100% validated by the people chosen as Radiants. People have, however, noticed a trend in-world, which is valid.

General Reddit 2019 (July 17, 2019)

Thanks, this is a great reference! You're always good at these sorts of WoB.

[Treamayne]

26 minutes ago, Returned said:

Thanks, this is a great reference! You're always good at these sorts of WoB.

No worries. I may have read too many WoBs, but most of it is practice and search technique (See Sharder FAQ link in my signature where we discuss some techniques). It is sometimes frustrating to recall the correct synonym or homonym to search up a specific WoB you remember (but not the exact wording). 

[Light In the Darkness]

On 10/15/2024 at 2:34 PM, Returned said:

If there are differences, how might those be expressed in the world? If Shallan were a Windrunner instead, would her 5th-Oath self be different in some meaningful way from the Lightweaver version in terms of repairing her Spiritweb or addressing her traumas? Might one be more fully restored than another, or could the quality of the re-forging differ if one is less suited to an Order but still progress to a given Ideal?

Acknowledging that broken-ness is not required, it is a definite trend in the series and in the Cosmere as a whole, with the obvious parallels being that

(spoilers for Warbreaker)

Spoiler

the Returned literally have to die to get their odd assortment of powers, and to acquire breath you end up basically ripping off a piece of someone else's soul (though damage to the general users of breaths seems to be lacking),

and that (spoilers for Mistborn)

Spoiler

Mistings and Mistborn have to "snap" to unlock their powers (though this seems to be mitigated in era 2, with a fully cognizant shard at the helm, and doesn't seem true for Feruchemists), savants damage their Spiritwebs with the excess of power they draw, and Hemalurgy involves intense damage to a person's Spiritweb.

We do have counterexamples in the form of the regular soldiers who get chosen - it definitely doesn't seem like everyone who becomes a squire or Knight in the Windrunners is damaged like Kaladin, with PTSD and depression and so forth. Heck, everyone's favorite (formerly) one-armed Herdazian wasn't very damaged in that way either. But the mechanics of the order seem to gravitate (ba-dum-tssss) towards those who are, perhaps in part because shared experiences like that create bonding experiences, allowing the surges to flow over more easily into the others to create squires, Knights, and general groups of friends and allies, which is core to the order. But Shallan's trauma was fundamentally different: it was isolating. In that way, she wasn't aligned with the order of the Windrunners, and people with similar traumas, who had made grievous errors that they deeply regret but that they did for what seemed like good reason, would likely trend toward being Lightweavers. So I think you do end up with different kinds of traumas ending up in different, mm, availabilities for the Radiant orders? but the way they approach moving forward will also determine which suits them better (Dalinar's trauma was more similar to Shallan's, I think, though the mistakes were less well-judged and intentional, but he approaches it by finding a way forward - he doesn't hide from it behind lies, but behind drink and forgetting. So, he ends up a Bondsmith instead of a Lightweaver.) So I think classes of Trauma, with the second classification of responses to them, end up in the same orders, but not everyone in those Orders has experienced the same kind of trauma and responded the same way, or even had the same magnitude of experience.

I would hazard a guess that the Windrunners would not have helped Shallan grow in the ways she needed to; she wasn't ever really committed to "honor" and "protection" as much as to family and joy, I think, with her family. She wouldn't have been able to progress as a Windrunner; she didn't care for the ideals, and they wouldn't have helped her heal like they have for Kaladin. But the Lightweaver ideals were something she wanted; she wanted to be honest and stop living in the complications created by her lies, but she told lies routinely to help people that she loved. Lightweaver ideals would actually help her heal and grow, and actually stick back together the pieces of herself that were broken. So frankly, I don't think she would have gotten to 5th in Windrunner Ideals, but if she had, she wouldn't be nearly as healed from her traumas as her Lightweaver 5th-ideal-self.

On 10/15/2024 at 4:28 PM, Treamayne said:

First, please note that "being broken" (trauma) is not necessarily required:

On the higher level of "is trauma necessary" I think it just ends up being that growth provides its own trauma, in a way; using investiture will break things in a person's Spiritweb and help reform them in different ways, leading to natural growth in the same way as going to the gym. It just becomes evident much faster if there is already significant damage done, and the power goes straight to repairing, which is necessarily more likely to happen at the re-beginning of bondings like this. See nuclear fission for example - Plutonium has a high spontaneous fission rate, comparatively, but Uranium has a slower one. When starting a power plant reactor, the reactions that happen first are necessarily the higher-potential-energy ones in things like Plutonium, but eventually the energy is around enough that lower energy ones start happening too (yes I know that was an imperfect comparison, there are other examples in chemical reactions but none were as easy to explain or came to mind quickly enough). In the same way, the initial bonds the spren made were likely to be "high-energy" - lots of potential for growth and change, allowing for quick ability to defend yourself and quick development towards stability, which can then shelter/shield "low-energy" bonds that take longer to develop and become sturdy enough to be self-reliant/self-sustaining. They can probably both progress to similar power levels, but the "high-energy" bonds will be more common when the bonds are returning, and may be able to progress faster/more dramatically than "lower-energy" bonds.

On 10/13/2024 at 3:08 PM, RandomCable said:

What if Shallan is swearing Half-Oaths?

With the core question here, though, I don't think so. In RoW, I think some people confuse her scene where Veil's role is resolved and she fully remembers what she's been hiding from with her swearing an Oath. She didn't; she is still only at the 3rd ideal. Radiant and Veil are her baggage from that, so to speak; they are both fallout from swearing the third ideal that she needs to deal with. So if it seems like she is swearing Half-Oaths, that might be why - her oaths haven't progressed, she is just dealing with their fallout more slowly than the others, similar to how Kaladin knew the 4th ideal for a solid amount of time from why back in Oathbringer, but he needed a lot of time before he could say it and mean it. Her Oath just preceded her grapple with it, in some ways.