Spiking Honorblade Surges, and what stems from that

[Grubfriend He/Him]

This is one idea that led to some other possibilities.

This stems from the idea that in order to steal a Surge from a Radiant, you have to spike both the the Radiant and the Spren. But what  if you spiked a person holding and Honorblade. Would you lose the power when they no longer hold the Blade?  And on that note, what else can we spike? A Heralds Immortality, maybe a Vessel's Connection to a Shard or something along those lines. I wonder what heightening you would get by spiking a Shard with a nicrosil spike.

Any thoughts?

[therunner he/him]

You'd probably want to spike their Connection to Honorblade, that would most likely be sufficient. Though we don't know yet all there is to know about them.

Heralds immortality might not be spikable, it is due to them being part of Oathpact. If you can spike that you could do that.

Vessel's Connection to Shard won't be spikeable, even if you got to that position. Similarly spiking a Shard with Nicrosil spike is not possible. You might try spiking their Avatar or Vessel. But again, I don't think it would do much. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16292

[Grubfriend He/Him]

My idea was more centered around taking their Investiture, and you can interact with the Vessel directly as seen in RoW

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

This stems from the idea that in order to steal a Surge from a Radiant, you have to spike both the the Radiant and the Spren. But what  if you spiked a person holding and Honorblade. Would you lose the power when they no longer hold the Blade?

I would think that attempting to spike an Honorblade would be like spiking a Shardblade or a Radiant- you're taking the portion of the Spiritweb that is Connected to the external Investiture, letting you access it as if you were that person (summoning the Blade, utilizing Surges, etc).

The reason you need to spike the Spren as well is because they have control over the bond and will almost certainly break it rather than tether themselves to the murderer of their knight. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394-dragoncon-2019/#e12931

Questioner

Can Hemalurgy be used to steal [Surgebinding]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically, but since there are spren involved it's not gonna work the same way. It is possible but not gonna be nearly as effective, how about that? Basically since the spren can break the bond in certain instances, you can get it and then immediately lose it.

Since Honorblades aren't sapient (though they may be somewhat sentient), the second spike shouldn't be necessary. 

That said, if you're going to kill the previous Honorblade holder anyway, just taking and bonding the Blade without Hemalurgy really is the best way to go. The same goes for Deadblades- stealing the bond is just a less efficient (though more immediate) way to form the bond with a Shardblade. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355-idaho-falls-signing/#e10696

Questioner

If you Hemalurgically steal a Shardblade, what attribute decays? Like, a dead Shardblade. 

Brandon Sanderson

Like, if you were going to steal someone's Connection to that Shardblade?

Questioner

The bond with it, yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

The bond with the Shardblade?

Questioner

So it'll take longer to summon, or? 

Brandon Sanderson

Well, no, you just wouldn't summon it anymore, the person who got it Hemalurgically would summon it. That would be kind of a wasted use, to get a dead Shardblade. Lot easier ways to do that.

Questioner

I was just wondering if it would take longer to summon for somebody who Hemalurgically stole it.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, there's a little bit of leak, so probably.

Questioner

It wouldn't make sense for it to be less sharp, cause they're already real sharp.

Brandon Sanderson

No.

 

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

A Heralds Immortality, maybe a Vessel's Connection to a Shard or something along those lines.

Possibly. It depends, I think, on whether it's the Oathpact's survival (even in its weakened state) that lets them survive, or if it's a matter of their nature as Cognitive Shadows and the Oathpact merely "feeds" them.

I suspect the latter, in which case simply stealing their Connection/Oathpact probably isn't enough for a mortal to achieve immortality, especially since the benefits will mostly vanish after death when the spike's contents no longer are grafted to your Spiritweb. 

You might be able to staple the Herald's Oathpact to another Cognitive Shadow to sustain them though (such as a Returned). Though, Roshar's abundance of free Investiture also makes this largely redundant. 

Specifically for spiking a Shardic Vessel's Connection, yes, this should be within the realm of technical possibility, though I suspect the amount of Investiture storage space needed to hold that Connection will prove too large to reasonably steal with a Hemalurgic spike. 

You might be able to briefly disrupt the Vessel's power though, leaving them vulnerable to another Shard or Invested attack.

Maybe even slap the Connection spike onto yourself and wrestle the Vessel for the pestle of power in the Shard, which might work similarly to Kelsier's orb trick (though it depends on how much Connection is stolen and transferred via Hemalurgy). Probably unwise, but maybe theoretically possible. 

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

I wonder what heightening you would get by spiking a Shard with a nicrosil spike.

It's not really know right now, though apparently the actual Investiture contained within a Shardic Vessel's Spiritweb isn't very much compared to the power of the Shard as a whole.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522-dragonsteel-2023/

Questioner

Assuming you have a way to siphon out a Vessel from a Shard, how much hemalurgic metal would be required to contain that Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

An astronomically large amount. Oh, the Vessel? Or contain a Shard? The Vessel, just a little dude... not that much. Basically, like a decent-sized gemstone would hold an Unmade, and that's more Investiture than we're talking about.

Questioner

Can hemalurgic metal hold around the same amount of an Invested creature as a pure gemstone?

Brandon Sanderson

No, gemstones can do more.

But if I were to guess, Nightblood's Investiture level is the maximum an object of that mass can be endowed with, and Nightblood already seems to bend the rules by becoming supersaturated with Investiture. 

So, if we're talking the maximum theoretical power a large-ish spike can grant (assuming the donor possesses that much to steal in the first place), probably look to Nightblood for an example.

If we're talking more practically sized spikes and Hemalurgic knowledge, I would guess probably between dozens to hundreds of BEUs (based on Set experiments and Sunheart Investiture levels).

2 hours ago, Xiahida said:

And on that note, what else can we spike?

Ultimately, anything that is part of the spiritual Aspect, though the specifics can prove difficult and the physical/cognitive Aspects are off limits. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4085

The_Vikachu

Another hemalurgy question: Is it possible to steal more than just spiritual DNA with hemalurgy? If you, say, infused someone with a hundred hemalurgic spikes charged from people who liked chicken, would the spike person enjoy chicken as well?

Brandon Sanderson

You can steal quite a lot with Hemalurgy. Anything encoded on a person's soul, really. Not sure if chicken liking counts, though...

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/66-firefight-atlanta-signing/#e3165

ccstat

Vasher uses Awakening in a very interesting way, off-stage, to modify the memories of the girl he rescues. Can Hemalurgy do the same thing if used carefully?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* No, I don't really think that it can. Nobody has asked that before, but just looking at the way the magics work, I don't think that is something that Hemalurgy is capable of doing.

 

[therunner he/him]

11 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

you can interact with the Vessel directly as seen in RoW

That was in a Vision created by the Vessel, in a blind-spot created by Renarin, and it was Nightblood interacting with the Vessel.
And Nightblood is among the most Invested objects/beings in the Cosmere, created with some intervention from a Shard.

That is not a situation you can use as guide.

Quote

My idea was more centered around taking their Investiture

Still won't work. Shard and Vessels are Investiture, so there is not much to spike (at least per the WoB).

Even if you could, it won't do anything meaningful to the Shard, and you most likely won't get too much out of it, as a rule it seems Hemalurgic spikes hold very little Investiture (i.e. less than a single Breath), since all it does is modify spiritweb (similarly to how Soulstamps use little Investiture). Though that is in usual situations.

 

Edited October 10, 2024 by therunner

[Grubfriend He/Him]

Thanks for the insight! This will help me for future ideas