Dalinar did nothing wrong. Change my mind

[king of nowhere]

18 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

I’ll admit Dalinar isn’t good at parenting, but my points still stand:

he had justification for the rift and he genuinely regrets his deeds. 

 

"Your honor, it's true that my client burnt down a whole city, but it was their fault, for resisting invasion.

Besides, my client can't be held accountable for killing those few tens of thousands, because he was high on drugs when he gave the order. Furthermore, he feels really sorry about it".

Somehow, it doesn't sound very convincing.

You're also completely forgetting the brawlers he maimed

 

[Rorzikel]

This whole thread's concept is disagreed with by the man it intends to defend.

-

Odium stepped back. "Dalinar? What is this?"

"You cannot have my pain."

"Dalinar-"

Dalinar forced himself to his feet. "You. Cannot. Have. My. Pain."

"Be sensible."

"I killed those children," Dalinar said.

"No, it-"

"I burned the people of Rathalas."

"I was there, influencing you-"

"YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN!" Dalinar bellowed, stepping toward Odium. The god frowned. His Fused companions shied back, and Amaram raised a hand before
his eyes and squinted. Were those gloryspren spinning around Dalinar?

"I did kill the people of Rathalas," Dalinar shouted. "You might have been there, but I made the choice. I decided!" He stilled. "I killed her. It hurts so much, but I did it. I accept that. You cannot have her. You cannot take her from me again."

"Dalinar," Odium said. "What do you hope to gain, keeping this burden?"

Dalinar sneered at the god. "If I pretend ... If I pretend I didn't do those things, it means that I can't have grown to become someone else."
"A failure."

Something stirred inside of Dalinar. A warmth that he had known once before. A warm, calming light. Unite them.

"Journey before destination," Dalinar said. "It cannot be a journey if it doesn't have a beginning."

A thunderclap sounded in his mind. Suddenly, awareness poured back into him. The Stormfather, distant, feeling frightened-but also surprised. Dalinar?

"I will take responsibility for what I have done," Dalinar whispered. "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man."

-

All from Oathbringer 119, the foundation of his next ideal and his win at Thaylen Field. The arguments of "oh, Odium was influencing Dalinar so it wasn't really him" or "it was someone else's fault" or "the killing of Rathalas and the burning of children wasn't his choice or his fault" are quite literally Odium's arguments.

So no, Dalinar did many things wrong, but you can take Rayse's side if you wish. I find this all bizarre, the character is about changing from a monster to a better man, not "a super cool guy who did badass things and messed up one time but it's all not his fault so why are people still mad after he apologized?"

[Sedside she/her]

6 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

you can take Rayse's side if you wish

That's very polite of you to accuse people not sharing your opinion of "taking Rayse's side".

7 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

This whole thread's concept is disagreed with by the man it intends to defend.

1. I don't think that this thread's concept was to prove Dalinar was right to burn the Rift. The first post is not about it.

2. Characters can say anything they want to say, we have the right to disagree with them and discuss it, don't we?

[Rorzikel]

14 minutes ago, Sedside said:

1. I don't think that this thread's concept was to prove Dalinar was right to burn the Rift. The first post is not about it.

Lord Spirit's point 2 in the opening post says that many people irl are upset with the Blackthorn's rampages, then states that said actions were legal and justified. The justifications are apparently:

• King Gavilar told him to conquer it
• War allows for violent extremes
  • And Dalinar was told to make an example of it.
• Dalinar first tried peaceful options before the burning.
• Gavilar sent him knowing that Dalinar was violent, so it was really Gavilar's fault.

You can look at it and tell me if you feel it's mischaracterized. I'd say that an action being legal and justified must be, if not right, then at least absolved.

On 10/8/2024 at 8:55 PM, Lord Spirit said:

2.

 There are a lot of people who are upset with Dalinar for his rampaging as the blackthorn. But, the thing is… his actions were completely legal and justified. Gavilar told him to conquer a city, and he did. Yes burning the rift was extreme. But he was at war, which is an exception to normal life, and I think he was specifically told to make an example of the city. And he only went nuclear after trying to be peaceful. But he was doing what Gavilar told him. Gavilar knew full well what Dalinar was capable of and chose to send his very violent brother to deal with the problem. 

By contrast, Adolin killed Saedeas on his own accord and never got punished for it. It was illegal and wrong, even if Saedeas definitely deserved it. He shouldn’t hold Dalinar to a standard that he doesn’t follow. 

 

The thread concept seems to be "why hasn't Adolin forgiven him by now, it's unreasonable for him to be this mad still." I'd say atonement without consequence is self-serving and that forgiveness shouldn't be required.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:13 PM, Rorzikel said:

This whole thread's concept is disagreed with by the man it intends to defend.

Not really. An act can be justified and horrible at the same time. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

[RefusesToElaborate]

On 10/9/2024 at 11:55 AM, Lord Spirit said:

I have two things to say here. 
1.
So chapter 20 furthers Adolin’s growing resentment of his father. I can understand getting mad with him for killing Evi and not being a great father. But he got along great (mostly) with Dalinar during the first 3 books, so I feel like his anger is a bit unessecary. They had a year between Oathbringer and RoW to talk things out, but apparently Adolin just chose to let it sit?

2.

 There are a lot of people who are upset with Dalinar for his rampaging as the blackthorn. But, the thing is… his actions were completely legal and justified. Gavilar told him to conquer a city, and he did. Yes burning the rift was extreme. But he was at war, which is an exception to normal life, and I think he was specifically told to make an example of the city. And he only went nuclear after trying to be peaceful. But he was doing what Gavilar told him. Gavilar knew full well what Dalinar was capable of and chose to send his very violent brother to deal with the problem. 

By contrast, Adolin killed Saedeas on his own accord and never got punished for it. It was illegal and wrong, even if Saedeas definitely deserved it. He shouldn’t hold Dalinar to a standard that he doesn’t follow. 

Yeah well that's just your opinion man, so-

Quote

Change my mind

- oh...

Your first point I don't really want to adress, not because it's right or wrong but because how Adolin feels about Dalinars actions doesn't really have any bearing in their morality. Adolin could think it's hilarious Dalinar killed Evi and the morality wouldn't change. I'm not a utilitarian, I don't think suffering is a valid metric to judge morals. They could talk it out for years, Adolin could forgive Dalinar. None of this changes what Dalinar did and why, and therefore the moral value of the action is fixed.

As for your second point. An action isn't good just because the King says so. Same for evil. Do we justify Sadeas treating the Bridgemen the way he does because they're his property? Or do we recognise that a wring is a wrong regardless of the law? This also goes for correct actions. There are some parts of the real world where if you save someone's life by administering CPR, but you break their ribs while you do it (incredibly common to break ribs during CPR) they can sue you for causing injury despite you saving their life. These would be laws that I think could be more moral than they already are.

1. For an action to be moral, it needs to be based on a maxim that is universally applied. The destruction of an entire city, through fire -one of the most painful ways for a person to die- as a response to what seems to be a minor uprising in a young kingdom cannot be justifiable as a universal maxim. Generals making examples of rebels is a thing that has happened historically, and it's always been wrong, but Dalinar made all them look like amatuers. The level of death and destruction dalinar wrought, if it were something acceptable on a moral level, would destroy any society that didn't have perfect political hegemony.

2. Second, people are ends in themselves, not means to an end. In this case, Dalinar, under orders, made an entire city and its inhabitants a mere tool for achieving Gavilar’s political goals. Even if Gavilar ordered him to “make an example” of the city, treating human lives as expendable for a broader political objective would be inherently wrong. The lives of the people in the Rift would have to be respected as having intrinsic worth, not as a way to send a message to others for purposes of intimidation.

3. Just because Gavilar gave Dalinar an order does not absolve Dalinar of his moral responsibility. Even in war, there are duties that surpass mere obedience, such as the duty to respect human life. If Dalinar knew his actions were excessively violent, it would have been his moral duty to refuse to carry out such extreme measures, regardless of what Gavilar instructed. "Just following orders" is not an excuse.

4. Intent is important irrespective of consequence unless you can predict the outcome of your actions with 100% certainty. What was Dalinar trying to do? I think he was so gripped by the thrill his intent was wanton destruction. Even if Dalinar’s actions led to what some might view as justified results (securing political power or ending a conflict), what matters morally is his motivation. His intent in burning the Rift was driven by a desire to instill fear, exact revenge, and demonstrate his power, rather than acting from a sense of moral duty or justice, his actions would be immoral. Even though Dalinar tried to resolve the situation peacefully initially, the shift to such extreme violence after being thwarted suggests his motivation may have shifted from achieving peace to asserting dominance and punishing resistance. If the underlying intention was not morally pure but was instead about using terror as a tool, I would argue that the act cannot be ethically justified, regardless of whether it followed orders.

[Maria PT]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:55 PM, Lord Spirit said:

OK. So burning civilians alive is neither legal nor justified under International Human Rights Law. Dalinor slaughtering soldiers is legal.
 

Murdering civilians - burning babies and women and children - is NOT legal. Taking a city by killing everyone in it is both illegal and immoral.

IHL does allow for collateral damage but burning the rift goes far beyond that.  Dalinor is a war criminal.

He has a nervous breakdown and becomes an alcoholic to escape that knowledge. Luckily, when he was given a space to forget and try to live in a different way, he takes it. He becomes the type of commander that would never burn the rift.

I like the new Dalinor a lot - but I do not like the Blackthorn. The Blackthorn was a murdering bastard.
 

 

 

have two things to say here. 
1.
So chapter 20 furthers Adolin’s growing resentment of his father. I can understand getting mad with him for killing Evi and not being a great father. But he got along great (mostly) with Dalinar during the first 3 books, so I feel like his anger is a bit unessecary. They had a year between Oathbringer and RoW to talk things out, but apparently Adolin just chose to let it sit?

2.

 There are a lot of people who are upset with Dalinar for his rampaging as the blackthorn. But, the thing is… his actions were completely legal and justified. Gavilar told him to conquer a city, and he did. Yes burning the rift was extreme. But he was at war, which is an exception to normal life, and I think he was specifically told to make an example of the city. And he only went nuclear after trying to be peaceful. But he was doing what Gavilar told him. Gavilar knew full well what Dalinar was capable of and chose to send his very violent brother to deal with the problem. 

By contrast, Adolin killed Saedeas on his own accord and never got punished for it. It was illegal and wrong, even if Saedeas definitely deserved it. He shouldn’t hold Dalinar to a standard that he doesn’t follow. 

 

On 10/8/2024 at 8:55 PM, Lord Spirit said:

I have two things to say here. 
1.
So chapter 20 furthers Adolin’s growing resentment of his father. I can understand getting mad with him for killing Evi and not being a great father. But he got along great (mostly) with Dalinar during the first 3 books, so I feel like his anger is a bit unessecary. They had a year between Oathbringer and RoW to talk things out, but apparently Adolin just chose to let it sit?

2.

 There are a lot of people who are upset with Dalinar for his rampaging as the blackthorn. But, the thing is… his actions were completely legal and justified. Gavilar told him to conquer a city, and he did. Yes burning the rift was extreme. But he was at war, which is an exception to normal life, and I think he was specifically told to make an example of the city. And he only went nuclear after trying to be peaceful. But he was doing what Gavilar told him. Gavilar knew full well what Dalinar was capable of and chose to send his very violent brother to deal with the problem. 

By contrast, Adolin killed Saedeas on his own accord and never got punished for it. It was illegal and wrong, even if Saedeas definitely deserved it. He shouldn’t hold Dalinar to a standard that he doesn’t follow. 

 

[lacieal]

This is a bit late but I absolutely do not understand what you just said, buring down a city and giving explicit orders to kill everyone and let no survivors including women and children is not morally justified, Dalinar was betrayed by the people he's trying to conquer he was the aggressor.

I also don't understand how you draw the line at Adolin killing the man that's that has killed many of his own friends and comrades, literal thousands of his people were killed from Sadeas's betrayal and he's both continued and threatened to do more.