Does Cultivation dispute Odium's accusations? Do the Shards prioritize self-preservation over the good of humanity?

[coolsnow7]

When Odium says:

Quote

Because you killed your father, and now worry the same will happen to you. Like the warlords here, you consolidate power so that no one can kill you.

Cultivation's response is... silence. She doesn't claim otherwise.

Let's consider a few things:

• All the Odium dialogue with Dalinar in Oathbringer: Rayse claims over and over and over that he's the only one who cares about humanity, that Honor and Cultivation are simply not interested in human suffering. We've treated this as pro-Odium propaganda, but... what if he's right? 
  • Taravangian is right when he refers to Cultivation's arguments as "elementary theological arguments".
• The letters in response to Hoid from Autonomy and Endowment: they are similarly consistent with the description of the Shards as "warlords who consolidate power so that no one will kill them". Indeed, the rules that Shards should avoid co-mingling in the same systems are too.
  • By contrast, Sazed - who we know cares very much - is also the Shard that replies positively to Hoid.
• The exceptions: The two past Shards that, so we have heard, truly loved humanity - Preservation and Honor - both died. 
• Sigzil's dillusionment: It's also consistent with Sigzil's disillusionment with the concept of honor that we learn about in The Sunlit Man: he claims that honor is a sham which mostly serves to motivate people to fight for a cause that doesn't benefit them. What if that cause is literally to fight for a Shard's self-preservation?
• Odium's claim about the Recreance

  Quote

  Oathbringer Ch. 57:

  "You said I was wrong about what caused the Radiants to abandon their oaths. What was it really?"
  
  Odium smiled. "Passion, son. Glorious, wondrous passion. It is what defines men - though ironically you are poor vessels for it.

  This sounds an awful lot like the Knights Radiant rejected the mission of fighting and dying to preserve Honor. 

 

Conclusion

I believe we're going to learn that Odium's accusations are more correct than not. And his solution to the problem - namely that humanity can only thrive under a single god - will be what's at issue in the future Grand Cosmere Clash. And, that Hoid is pursuing a solution to the same problem.

Edited September 16, 2024 by coolsnow7
Writing

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

I have so many thoughts here and I don't know where to start lol all I know is I really like the way this theorizing is going and I'm trying to think about what implications there could be for this book and the rest of the cosmere. I'm currently wondering if there is any way that Kaladin learns some things from Ishar about the shards (and the ancient / old spren who were viewed as gods too) and their intentions, motivations, and the history of their interactions. I'm personally unclear on the timelines of which shards were worshipped by who at what times and why. 

Maybe Kaladin learns some things after swearing the 5th ideal (becoming the embodiment of honor in some way?) that make him feel honor-bound to act in a different way from how he was acting before. Any chance of Kaladin becoming Odium's champion by the end of the book? Maybe he agrees to be Odium's champion in exchange for promises from Odium like freeing the Wind, protecting rosharans of all kind should he win, or things like that?

If you think about it, even if Kaladin became Odium's champion and then killed Dalinar, Dalinar would come back as a fused. So it wouldn't be like permanently killing him I suppose haha just trying to think of how Odium could potentially convince him it was for the greater good and would bring the most overall protection by uniting all of Roshar under one shard or something.

Probably waaaay out of left field here with the theorizing, but just excited to see what happens.

[BinarySecond]

Worth noting that, for some reason, Virtuosity self splintered.

I think the driving force behind most of those involved in the Shattering of Adonalsium are probably selfish reasons. Maybe Ado was stagnant and useless, maybe not - Pure speculation at this time.

 

The 17 came together and split god and 16 took a piece - Arguably making them unfit for holding it.

 

"Only those who do not seek power are qualified to hold it" - Plato

There is wisdom in these words are relative to the Cosmere I'm sure. Sazed never intended to ascend to Harmony. He lived an arguably humble life.

Taravangian never sought to become Odium, almost like Sazed he happened into it (From his perspective, Cultivation meddling aside)

 

It's the same argument I'd use for why Kaladin is fit to hold the Honor - He's had to live a whole live of facing the challenges of what Honor means without the influence of the power.

Cultivating (ha) a vessel through a mortal life then taking up a shard can, arguably, lead to a better result for everyone. 

[coolsnow7]

17 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Worth noting that, for some reason, Virtuosity self splintered.

I think the driving force behind most of those involved in the Shattering of Adonalsium are probably selfish reasons. Maybe Ado was stagnant and useless, maybe not - Pure speculation at this time.

 

The 17 came together and split god and 16 took a piece - Arguably making them unfit for holding it.

 

"Only those who do not seek power are qualified to hold it" - Plato

There is wisdom in these words are relative to the Cosmere I'm sure. Sazed never intended to ascend to Harmony. He lived an arguably humble life.

Taravangian never sought to become Odium, almost like Sazed he happened into it (From his perspective, Cultivation meddling aside)

 

It's the same argument I'd use for why Kaladin is fit to hold the Honor - He's had to live a whole live of facing the challenges of what Honor means without the influence of the power.

Cultivating (ha) a vessel through a mortal life then taking up a shard can, arguably, lead to a better result for everyone. 

I am 90% sure that emotional Taravangian knew where this was headed. Smart Taravangian used his intelligence to shield himself from that inconvenient truth. 

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 9/16/2024 at 11:17 PM, coolsnow7 said:

I believe we're going to learn that Odium's accusations are more correct than not. And his solution to the problem - namely that humanity can only thrive under a single god - will be what's at issue in the future Grand Cosmere Clash. And, that Hoid is pursuing a solution to the same problem.

I feel that it is a very interesting statement coming from T'Odium. Humanity can thrive under a single god - probably true but

the way to achieve this for T'Odium is very conveniently and hilariously selfishly that the one god is him! Hence, the shard of Odium has designs to kill all the other shards, splinter them, not take them up and alone survive and alone rule and be worshipped. Very selfless and caring of him indeed! 

I also take issue with Odium's claim of being not Odium but Passion, it is only pure propaganda, because even if the shard is "emotion incarnate", it certainly does not encompass all emotions but all the negative emotions: hatred, anger, lust, vengeance etc. 

may be some other shard got all the positive ones may be devotion or some other shard?  

So, he may be right that all the shards are cowards or selfish or self aggrandizing but Odium still is not a better option. He is also equally bad if not worse.   

 

[Isilel]

Honestly, I don't understand why Cultivation didn't point out that Rosharan system used to be more peaceful and prosperous before Odium's arrival and meddling. Or how Odium's actions turned Threnody into the Hell it is.

[BinarySecond]

3 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Honestly, I don't understand why Cultivation didn't point out that Rosharan system used to be more peaceful and prosperous before Odium's arrival and meddling. Or how Odium's actions turned Threnody into the Hell it is.

Do we know it was peaceful? Listener traditions do include methods of tribal wars. And the Dawnsingers were responsible for the erection of the Dawncities - That is a very expansive settled area which does seem unlikely to allow for total peace.

It's also a moot point as Taravangian is considering the level of suffering Cosmere wide where his influence is nominally zero.