Hemalurgy Warping Powers

[Trusk'our he/him]

Hemalurgy adds to the Spiritweb of the recipient of a Hemalurgic spike, increasing a given attribute or power, often adding something completely new.

However, adding attributes results in a warping of the body and mind. So, why not powers?

What I suppose I mean by this is, since adding strength to a person with an iron spike can change a lot more than just adding strength (i.e. alter skin composition, change the digestive tract, alter growth, and change blood composition), so why doesn't adding an Invested power do the same?

Perhaps it can, but isn't done normally. Maybe a "misplaced" spike or one harvested with an incorrect Intent (maybe by taking part of another Metalborn's power to recode another) can staple the Investiture onto a Metalborn's natural power, changing what it does.

Thoughts?

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

Interesting… I have a couple things to say about this. 
First, in all cases I know of, attribute spikes are stacked and power spikes aren’t. I’d imagine that one iron spike would merely make you a bit stronger, and maybe more muscular. Meanwhile, having four spikes granting the same power will likely do something new. 
Secondly, we already know that high levels of allomancy or other powers can warp the body; savantism is the result. Thus, high levels of hemalurgy-granted may speed up or even instantly grant savantism. (Thinking about it like that, perhaps koloss can be considered h-iron savants.) It’s possible there are more levels of savantism than those reached by characters we’ve seen. What happens if, for instance, Spook continued to flare tin for the rest of his lifetime? He wouldn’t stop at the level of sensory overclocking he’d reached; he’d have even more dependable and even more benefit, although maybe the increase would slow over time. We also know that eventually savantism can simply vaporize your body, and that it can be fatal, so perhaps with enough spikes you can increase the “pressure” from magic to the extent that it begins to kill you. 
As for the effect of the warping, I think you’d get some savantism like effects, at least at first. Physical changes other than that seem hard to think of. However, hemalurgy grants permanent powers that cannot be turned off. I think that, with enough spikes, you’d lose the ability to deactivate your powers at all, with them being constantly fueled hemalurgically, perhaps at a low burn. The ability to continuously activate allomancy without burning metals is interesting to contemplate, especially considering that such a person would be completely controlled by Ruin. 
I’m looking forward to seeing what everyone else thinks of this. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

3 hours ago, Dragonheir said:

...

What happens if, for instance, Spook continued to flare tin for the rest of his lifetime? He wouldn’t stop at the level of sensory overclocking he’d reached; 

...

He would have ended up blind, deaf, and dumb, if he didn't die first, period full-stop. There are ways to achieve extra sensory awareness,  but what spooks were doing is equivalent to rampant drug abuse.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, Dragonheir said:

First, in all cases I know of, attribute spikes are stacked and power spikes aren’t. I’d imagine that one iron spike would merely make you a bit stronger, and maybe more muscular. Meanwhile, having four spikes granting the same power will likely do something new. 

That seems the reverse, actually; adding more spikes with powers usually just adds raw power, more attribute spikes will create something new like a Koloss- which is what I find weird. It does seem like powers granted via Hemalurgy should be similarly warped, but we have no examples of this yet.

4 hours ago, Dragonheir said:

Secondly, we already know that high levels of allomancy or other powers can warp the body; savantism is the result. Thus, high levels of hemalurgy-granted may speed up or even instantly grant savantism. (Thinking about it like that, perhaps koloss can be considered h-iron savants.) It’s possible there are more levels of savantism than those reached by characters we’ve seen. 

Savantism is more of a warping of the Spiritweb by stretching it out with too much Kinetic Investiture, but Hemalurgy adds Static Investiture to it, which can have a subsequent warping by adding spiritual DNA where it shouldn't be. This does warp the end product, but not the initial Spiritweb (Koloss don't stay Koloss after death, as seen in MSH). If one could add differing code to a power's portion of the Spiritweb, perhaps the end result could be different while the spike is in place. 

4 hours ago, Dragonheir said:

It’s possible there are more levels of savantism than those reached by characters we’ve seen. What happens if, for instance, Spook continued to flare tin for the rest of his lifetime? He wouldn’t stop at the level of sensory overclocking he’d reached; he’d have even more dependable and even more benefit, although maybe the increase would slow over time. We also know that eventually savantism can simply vaporize your body, and that it can be fatal, so perhaps with enough spikes you can increase the “pressure” from magic to the extent that it begins to kill you. 
As for the effect of the warping, I think you’d get some savantism like effects, at least at first. Physical changes other than that seem hard to think of. However, hemalurgy grants permanent powers that cannot be turned off. I think that, with enough spikes, you’d lose the ability to deactivate your powers at all, with them being constantly fueled hemalurgically, perhaps at a low burn. The ability to continuously activate allomancy without burning metals is interesting to contemplate, especially considering that such a person would be completely controlled by Ruin. 
I’m looking forward to seeing what everyone else thinks of this. 

I think Ascension is a matter of the quantity of Investiture, not Savantism. Savantism changes how your Spiritweb is arranged, not necessarily how Invested you are.

Still, seeing how a hyper-Savant handled the changes and the pros and cons of such would be really interesting to see.

As for using Allomancy without metals, I kind of doubt it; burning metal to draw Kinetic Investiture from the SR is the base ability. You'd need to fundamentally change it to get such a result (which, perhaps, my proposition for Hemalurgic power modification may allow).

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy adds Static Investiture to it, which can have a subsequent warping by adding spiritual DNA where it shouldn't be. This does warp the end product, but not the initial Spiritweb (Koloss don't stay Koloss after death, as seen in MSH).

I feel like this is an assumption. All we really know for sure is that the Cognitive Aspect of a person that became a koloss (Era 1) was not warped in a way similar to their physical aspect:

• It could be that your premise is correct
• It could also be that because all spikes were for "Physical" traits, only the Physical aspect was warped
  • and with the "body" dead, the Cognitive aspect did not reflect the warping - their physical "string" being severed
• It could be something entirely different, because we do not have enough information on Spiritwebs

All of that said, pending more data, I think Manifestations of Investiture are like atoms hanging off the spiritweb - forming the "molecule" that is the person - spikes changing or apending to that "added" piece that grants access to investiture stack (as seen in double-bronze Vin, or triple Steel Kar), but when the chunk is instead modifying part of the "core" then the associated chunk (spirit, cognitive, physical) is more warped due to changes in the core "person" rather than changes to "the extra bits"

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I feel like this is an assumption. All we really know for sure is that the Cognitive Aspect of a person that became a koloss (Era 1) was not warped in a way similar to their physical aspect:

• It could be that your premise is correct
• It could also be that because all spikes were for "Physical" traits, only the Physical aspect was warped
  • and with the "body" dead, the Cognitive aspect did not reflect the warping - their physical "string" being severed
• It could be something entirely different, because we do not have enough information on Spiritwebs

These are fair points, and I did jump a little for my own assumption. We probably need more information before we can be certain. 

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

All of that said, pending more data, I think Manifestations of Investiture are like atoms hanging off the spiritweb - forming the "molecule" that is the person - spikes changing or apending to that "added" piece that grants access to investiture stack (as seen in double-bronze Vin, or triple Steel Kar), but when the chunk is instead modifying part of the "core" then the associated chunk (spirit, cognitive, physical) is more warped due to changes in the core "person" rather than changes to "the extra bits"

This is most likely the case, but still, if one can fundamentally change a human's physiology only by stealing attributes from other regular humans, it seems likely to me that you could potentially do something similar with only powers by splicing them together correctly. 

Also, I wasn't aware that Kar had triple steel. Where did that come from?

Edited August 31, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, I wasn't aware that Kar had triple steel. Where did that come from?

My insanity, possibly? I was too tired, lazy, and stupid to verify last night when I typed the reply - but at the time I thought we had confirmation that Kar was Mistborn before becoming an Inquisitor (when Vin saw his Malatium Shadow). . . Double steel eyes (his viewpoint) + Mistborn would have made him a triple steel. 

However, I'm not finding what I thought I remembered (though I will update if I do find it).

Edited August 31, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

My insanity, possibly? I was too tired, lazy, and stupid to verify last night when I typed the reply - but at the time I thought we had confirmation that Kar was Mistborn before becoming an Inquisitor (when Vin saw his Malatium Shadow). . . Double steel eyes (his viewpoint) + Mistborn would have made him a triple steel. 

However, I'm not finding what I thought I remembered (though I will update if I do find it).

Ah, it's all good; I was actually kinda doing the same thing on my original response to @Dragonheir, I had  splitting headache at the time 

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I had  splitting headache at the time 

Did your at-home-Hemalurgy kit miss the Bind Point?

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Did your at-home-Hemalurgy kit miss the Bind Point?

My home remedy acupuncture has been acting up a little, yes 

[Rorzikel]

On 8/30/2024 at 2:47 PM, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy adds to the Spiritweb of the recipient of a Hemalurgic spike, increasing a given attribute or power, often adding something completely new.

However, adding attributes results in a warping of the body and mind. So, why not powers?

What I suppose I mean by this is, since adding strength to a person with an iron spike can change a lot more than just adding strength (i.e. alter skin composition, change the digestive tract, alter growth, and change blood composition), so why doesn't adding an Invested power do the same?

Perhaps it can, but isn't done normally. Maybe a "misplaced" spike or one harvested with an incorrect Intent (maybe by taking part of another Metalborn's power to recode another) can staple the Investiture onto a Metalborn's natural power, changing what it does.

Thoughts?

Are you asking why ability spikes don't warp the body/mind or why they don't result in changes to the powers' functions?

I'd argue that they do both. With the Steel Inquisitors, we know that they also have bodily distortion because they have railroad spikes going through both eyes and out the back of their heads, and yet can still live and think. Their brains are either shifted into a new structure around it or radically rewired to compensate for severe brain damage.

Second, Steelsight comes naturally to them and, depending on what metal Kelsier's spike is, a spike through the eye might not even require a steel/iron allomancy-granting spike (this assumes the theory that Kel is using a duralumin spike to control the body is correct). He also seems to not be able to burn metals anyways, so Steelsight might just be an inherent benefit of an eyestabbing.

So I'd say they both affect your physiology and provide new twists on powers.

[Trusk'our he/him]

23 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

Are you asking why ability spikes don't warp the body/mind or why they don't result in changes to the powers' functions?

I'd argue that they do both. With the Steel Inquisitors, we know that they also have bodily distortion because they have railroad spikes going through both eyes and out the back of their heads, and yet can still live and think. Their brains are either shifted into a new structure around it or radically rewired to compensate for severe brain damage.

Yes, you do see some inherent changes to anatomy from power spikes, but they don't seem to change the use of the Allomancy or Feruchemy. 

23 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

Second, Steelsight comes naturally to them and, depending on what metal Kelsier's spike is, a spike through the eye might not even require a steel/iron allomancy-granting spike (this assumes the theory that Kel is using a duralumin spike to control the body is correct). He also seems to not be able to burn metals anyways, so Steelsight might just be an inherent benefit of an eyestabbing.

So I'd say they both affect your physiology and provide new twists on powers.

True, it does seem that a power spike changes the organ it pierces so that it magically functions on spiritual rules rather than physical ones (a concept explored more on this thread), but these don't actually change how the power is used: you add a Seeker's Allomancy to yourself with a spike, you can use that Allomancy. No difference in function beyond a weakening of the Investiture or adding it to any natural Seeking power you already have.

Hence the reason I think it's a bit odd, and perhaps why with some tweaking you could modify actual powers and their functions via Hemalurgy. 

[Duxredux he/him]

I have a few takes on this. Take one is that usefully modifying powers and sDNA modification is probably as hard if not harder to make useful as IRL gene splicing and introducing new DNA strands into existing chains. Radiation or accidental gene splicing is orders of magnitude more likely to kill you with cancer than make you Spider-Man. 

Take 2 is that keying the spikes and powers to do exactly what you want will be a significant hurdle - just like the Set getting inconsistent powers out of generally harvested Investiture. 

Take 3 involves full Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

We know that Investiture has a tendency to follow specific modes of power. Lightweaving, Midnight Essence, Awakening and more reoccur across the various Shards and Investitures. It may be that trying to use Hemalurgy to innovate a new Invested Art won't let you expand beyond these existing modes. 

Actually, if the Set got known abilities from the non-lethal harvesting, that points even more to the Investiture gravitating to known modes.

I won't say it's impossible to get something useful from this, but I think this would require splicing finesse beyond anything we've yet seen.

[Trusk'our he/him]

17 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I have a few takes on this. Take one is that usefully modifying powers and sDNA modification is probably as hard if not harder to make useful as IRL gene splicing and introducing new DNA strands into existing chains. Radiation or accidental gene splicing is orders of magnitude more likely to kill you with cancer than make you Spider-Man. 

Oh definitely, Hemalurgy tweaking attributes has about a one in a million chance of not just automatically messing them up beyond recognition with no benefit. 

17 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Take 2 is that keying the spikes and powers to do exactly what you want will be a significant hurdle - just like the Set getting inconsistent powers out of generally harvested Investiture. 

Take 3 involves full Cosmere spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

We know that Investiture has a tendency to follow specific modes of power. Lightweaving, Midnight Essence, Awakening and more reoccur across the various Shards and Investitures. It may be that trying to use Hemalurgy to innovate a new Invested Art won't let you expand beyond these existing modes. 

Actually, if the Set got known abilities from the non-lethal harvesting, that points even more to the Investiture gravitating to known modes.

I won't say it's impossible to get something useful from this, but I think this would require splicing finesse beyond anything we've yet seen.

Yeah, it's probably pretty difficult to do, as complex Hemalurgy always is, but Spiritual Realm hacks like chromium Feruchemy and electrum Allomancy should make such a thing more viable (though admittedly still quite difficult, and you'd need a way to boost their power to make a noticeable difference, like Compounding or duralumin Allomancy).

And powers gravitating towards a pre-determined set makes sense, which could mess with this possibility.