isn't sand mastery lame? what is so special about it?

[samsocial]

Sand masters can manipulate sand in ribbons. In book it is used to fight, pull some stuff up/down, move objects.

what is special in that ? it can be achieved with some rope, pulley mechanism. they have build boats, making technology pulling some stuff up isn't much complicated for them

for fighting, there are better weapons available, and sand mastery fails many times with its flaws. they could not even save their own people because of their flaws 

is there more to their powers or they can be made redundant with advanced technology ?

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. I see you have been her a while, but infrequently and it's been a while. You may want to consider posting what you have or have-not read in (whichever list is shorter) in an Intro Post or your profile. Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ. 

7 minutes ago, samsocial said:

Sand masters can manipulate sand in ribbons. In book it is used to fight, pull some stuff up/down, move objects.

what is special in that ? it can be achieved with some rope, pulley mechanism. they have build boats, making technology pulling some stuff up isn't much complicated for them

for fighting, there are better weapons available, and sand mastery fails many times with its flaws. they could not even save their own people because of their flaws 

is there more to their powers or they can be made redundant with advanced technology ?

Sorry you did not enjoy Sand Mastery. May I ask which version you read? Every Invested Art is impacted by technology, which is one of the reasons Brandon is building the cosmere as he is, to show how magic affects technologic progress, and how technology affects magical understanding. Understanding and application of the Scientific Method will have a profound effect on all Manifestations of Investiture (as already seen in Warbreaker - ch 46).

Just because Ribbons were the primary means used in-story, does not mean they are the only use. While primarily used for work (in the context of Simple Machines), the Omnibus already shows theorizing on additional applications - not to mention the combat potential that kept the Kerztians at bay until they got an insider to poison the Sand Masters to allow them to attack.

For example: (SA Spoilers)

Spoiler

It may be possible for a Sandmaster, given sand that has been invested by Stormlight, could be much more effective against a Thunderclast since they would be weilding two-to-dozens of "blade-ribbons" each capable of attacking from differnt angles and easily cutting through their stone bodies (equal or near-equal to a shardblade).

And, sure, the Mastrell's were taken out by Sabotage (Elorin) - but the same could be done with other invested arts (Mistborn, SA Spoilers):

Spoiler

A sabatour replacing metal stores with bad alloys would incapacitate any allomancer, or steal Metalminds to incapacitate feruchemists. 

A sabatour cracking a Radiant's gemstones would quickly leave them without Stormlight to use their abilities

etc.

As for wider Cosmere implications (Spoilers for Stormlight Archive and Tress):

Spoiler

We see in Oathbringer and RoW that White Sand, itself, has wider Cosmere applications as a means to detect investiture. 

In Tress of the Emerald Sea we learn of Luhel Bonds, and it is strongly implied that a Sand Master's Bond is a form of Luhel Bond (Bone Aether Myth) - meaning there might be even more implications and applications, both for a Sand Master and for the use of Sand in Fabrials. 

Hope that helps

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Just to add to Treamayne:

 

MB Era 2 Spoilers:

Spoiler

We have seen that Luhel bonds can be very powerful when provided with investiture rather than water. Twinsoul, when given purified dor, is a force to be reckoned with as he can grow an insane amount of crystal and not worry about dehydration. The same should be true for sand masters. What are they capable of if you remove the water restriction? Probably a LOT. 

 

[samsocial]

Sorry if it was not clear, I was talking only for White Sand 1 2 3 books

For every other book, magic is the central part of the plot, the plot will not work if magic changes.

In White Sand, even if we replace sand magic with something unmagical like sword fighting, gun shooting, plot will still work.

Sand Magic does not do anything special in these books that cannot be achieved by the technology available with people at that time. 

 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, samsocial said:

I was talking only for White Sand 1 2 3 books

So, I take this to mean you read the original 3-Volume Graphic Novels, not the unpublished Prose or the Omnibus (fixed) Editions (please see link in last email for more detail). 

I will concur that the plot was a known factor for why the book was originally unpublished, Dan Wells roasts Brandon about that fact in a few of his Forwards to other Sanderson Books. Excerpt from the Wells' Forward to Elantris 10th anniversary edition:

Spoiler

My early novels had so many fantasy clichés they were essentially fan fiction; Brandon’s were so adamantly devoid of cliché that sometimes nothing happened in them at all.

“Hey, Brandon, when do the bad guys show up?”

“These are the bad guys.”

“No, these are just the guys trying to close the main character’s school of magic. Obviously some real bad guys are going to show up, and this guy’s magic is the only thing that will be able to stop them, and his school will save the day because he fought to keep it open, and yay. We can all see it coming. It’s just, why is it taking so long?”

“That’s not going to happen.”

“Of course that’s going to happen. That’s what fantasy novels are about.”

“But they don’t have to be about that. I mean, fantasy can be about anything it wants, right? That’s the point of fantasy. So why can’t this fantasy just be about a guy who’s trying to keep a school open, and that’s the whole story? And it just happens to be a school where people learn sand magic and wear air-powered dueling wrist guns and eat delicious giant insect tofu?”

“Um. I guess it could. So wait, is there really no bad guy? Like, at all?”

And so it went, book after book. Even back then, Brandon wrote books faster than most humans could read them.

However, my point from above still stands - just because we don't see many of the great things Sand Mastery can do (though, please tell me how you expect a simple winch and cable to lift a fallen building fast enough to save those trapped workers) - does not mean that Sand Mastery is not capable of more. It sounds like your problem is more about plot than Magic (which matches why it was unpublished before Dynamite). It is part of why I prefer the Omnibus so much - it not only fixes mistakes, but the addition of the Ars Arcanum  really expands on aspects of Taldain that did not make it into the story. 

Spoiler

Can't wait for Arcanist - to learn more about the Starcarved of Darkside

 

[samsocial]

On 8/29/2024 at 2:58 PM, Treamayne said:

please tell me how you expect a simple winch and cable to lift a fallen building fast enough to save those trapped workers

Kenton hardly lifts the building, he just makes sure people come out

He gets exhausted even when he lifts his girl friend couple of times to move her up and down the building

Anyway using magic to stop building from falling for few minutes is just bad/inferior/lame magic use as compared to magic systems developed in other books

I see others have already pointed it out. Thanks for references

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, samsocial said:

is just bad/inferior/lame magic use as compared to magic systems developed in other books

I'm sorry you feel that way. I respect your opinion, which is a perfectly valid interpretation, even if I don't agree with it. 

Brandon has said that not every magic system is meant to be capable of the same things. Not every Manifestation of Investiture (MoI) can be a combat art, or capable of Transformation, etc. But there are things in the Cosmere (like Lightweaving) that are accessible by multiple magic systems, but how they are accessed and implemented may slightly differ. 

Please see his Three Laws of Magic (third post has links to posts 1 and 2) where he descibes his personal rules for how he builds magic systems and why he makes the choices he does. One of his core philosophies is that the Limitations are what make magic interesting, not the powers themselves. 

 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

carmen22

 How did you ever keep the unique power systems all straight and use them so well for your readers to understand?

The powers, to me, were just so fascinating, well developed, and unique on so many levels! I think with a lesser artist than yourself the powers might have been too much to take in, but I found them quite easy to follow and understand. Just amazing! You seriously are one of my favorite authors. I'll be in line for all of your books!

Brandon Sanderson

Thanks! It took a lot of practice. Keeping them straight for myself isn't so difficult—it's like keeping characters straight. The more I've written, the easier it's become.

What is more difficult is keeping it all straight for the readers. This can be tough. One of the challenges with fantasy is what we call the Learning Curve. It can be very daunting to pick up a book and find not only new characters, but an entirely new world, new physics, and a lot of new words and names.

I generally try to introduce this all at a gentle curve. In some books, like Warbreaker, starting with the magic system worked. But in Mistborn, I felt that it was complex enough—and the setting complex enough—that I needed to ease into the magic, and so I did it bit by bit, with Vin.

In all things, practice makes perfect. I have a whole pile of unpublished novels where I didn't do nearly as good a job of this. Even still, I think I have much to learn. In the end of Mistborn One and Warbreaker both I think I leave a little too much confusion about the capabilities of the magic.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

Quote

Brent Weeks

How do you keep magic, well, magical over multiple books? How do you balance the rationalist impulse of "I need to explain how it works so it seems well thought out and balanced" with some of that Harry Potter-esque sense of wonder? How do you balance the ability to surprise your readers with being careful not to make the magic feel like a deus ex machina? Is the presence of magic in fantasy about more than adolescent power trips? Must the functions of magic be analogous to other technologies or physical processes, or can it be truly alien?

To paraphrase one of the commenters, if you dissect the magic too much, do you risk it dying on the table?

*Maybe I'd put JK Rowling as an exception, arguing that eventually what she was writing was epic fantasy. And it did get better. Mostly.

Brandon Sanderson

If you dissect the magic too much, do you risk it dying on the table? Certainly, you do. Any time you explain a magic, rather than allowing it to remain mysterious, you are trading some of the sense of wonder for something else. An ability for the reader to understand the world, and what the characters are capable of. If you give a character a magic box, and say that when it is opened, something magical will happen that's one thing. If you tell them what the magic box does when it is opened, that trades some of the sense of mystery and (a smaller bit) of the wonder in exchange for a plot point. Now the character can open the box consciously, and influence the world around him/her by what is in the box. Done cleverly, you've traded mystery for suspense, which do different things.

When you start explaining why the box works like it does, you also make a trade. You trade more of your sense of wonder in exchange for an ability for the character now to extrapolate. Maybe figure out how to make boxes of their own, or change what the box does when it is opened. You make the character less of a pawn in a scheme they cannot understand, and more of a (potentially) active participant in their destiny.

I'm certainly over-simplifying, and I don't want to understate the power of either side. A sense of wonder, mystery, and a smallness to the characters was essential for such works as The Lord of the Rings. If you'd known exactly what Gandalf could do, and why, it would have changed the experience. Instead, you are allowed to feel like Frodo and Sam, who are moving through a world of giants, both literally and figuratively.

However, there are always going to be trades in fiction. What is it you're trying to do? I tend to gravitate toward worlds where the science adheres to the scientific method. And so long as something is repeatable, it can be studied, understood, and relied upon. You don't have to understand the HOW, so long as you know the WHAT and a little of the WHY. What is going to happen when I open this box, and how can I change the effect?

Done really well (and I'm not certain if I do it really well, but I hope to someday get there) explaining can still preserve a measure of wonder. The classical scientists discovered, explained, and tried to understand science. But the more they learned, the more wondrous the world around them became, and the more answers there were to be found. I think it is important to establish that there IS more to be learned, that the answers haven't all been found.

Babel Clash: Brandon Sanderson and Brent Weeks (Sept. 13, 2010)

 

Hope that helps

[Duxredux he/him]

Just saying, if the argument is that the power can be replaced with conventional technology, and thus is lame, that strikes out huge swaths of media.

Who needs the Hulk? Just get a demolition crew and hope that space alien holds still for the wrecking ball (which I guess basically happens in the old Fantastic Four 2 movie). Who needs Thor when you have the power grid? Hawkeye is just a guy with a bow. Captain America is basically a soldier on steroids with a cool shield. Dismissing a powerset because you can recreate it with conventional tech seems... a bit short sighted. 

We rarely see Sandmasters in full scale combat with full access to water, and I don't count the scene where the diem gets poisoned as they were severely penalized for using abilities. Give a squad of Sandmasters some Camelbaks and a cooler to refill, and they can do super extended jumps into enemy terrain, create sand walls around them and with practice with Overmastery can send out dozens of lethal ribbons in all directions, ribbons holding swords if need be when facing opponents with terken protection. Beyond that, Sand Mastery allows for a degree of finesse in direct manipulation that rivals the most of the best we've seen in the Cosmere. They could probably pick locks, sneak a ribbon under a door or through a keyhole and thrash the ribbon around killing most people in the room, they can sword fight from a distance by holding swords, when fighting on sand they can manipulate the ground combatants are standing on, they could probably operate guns with ribbons though not without much accuracy. Beyond this, without the distinctive clothing of a Sand Master, you can't tell if this barefoot person is about to spear you with the sand they are standing on. If electronics gets developed on Taldain, I can only imagine what a good Sand Mastered blasting will do for it. Sand blasting like this can jam up plate armor joints, find gaps in visors, go straight through chain mail, bludgeon, saw through leather, or hurl swords.

Need I continue? If you think Sand Mastery is boring, spend a few minutes imagining what you could do if you had it. What you would have to do to stop an Sand Master Assassin. Terken can get you a lot, but it can't stop everything. 

[Rorzikel]

I think that lower stakes abilities can be more interesting than high power ones, depending on the storytelling. At a certain point, magic systems go full Dragon Ball Z and the emotional impact doesn't usually scale linearly with the power level. Not every magic needs to be a doomsday threat to its own world or have built-in exploits to game it.

[samsocial]

On 9/6/2024 at 5:58 PM, Duxredux said:

Just saying, if the argument is that the power can be replaced with conventional technology, and thus is lame, that strikes out huge swaths of media.

I said technology because people in general were fed up with Sand Masters, and did not find them useful to build society 

technology is one of the options to do that

moreover magical powers generally stop incentives for technological advancement 

there is huge literature available on how dragons stopped innovation in GOT

On 9/6/2024 at 5:58 PM, Duxredux said:

If you think Sand Mastery is boring, spend a few minutes imagining what you could do if you had it.

the point was if Sand Mastery is so good, why we do not see it in the book ? 

Shouldn't it be waste of having so much great power and not seeing it in its full use ? 

[Duxredux he/him]

My reply will be in reverse order to your comments. 

1 hour ago, samsocial said:

the point was if Sand Mastery is so good, why we do not see it in the book ? 

Shouldn't it be waste of having so much great power and not seeing it in its full use ? 

Because Kenton is not a bloodthirsty man, nor was his purposes served by demonstrating how dangerous Sand Mastery truly is - though the death match against Drile showed much of that anyway. Kenton's goal was to prove to all the Lords and people of Lossand that the Sand Masters were to be trusted friends, allies, and colleagues - not domineering blasphemous bullies as was the reputation under Praxton and older Lord Mastrells. The other Lords voted for the dissolution of the Diem not because Sand Mastery was impotent, but because it was too powerful and used its power for extortion. Flexing like when Kenton used Sand Mastery to force his way in to see the Lord Merchant (or Farmer, can't remember from the graphic audio) gained him nothing but fear - it was forgiving the debts that earned him respect. 

Basically my list of possible uses is why the Diem was feared in the first place and for centuries could lean on the other professions with relatively little risk for rebuke or retribution. Technology wasn't stunted because the Mastrells chose not to help and instead took what was invented by others for themselves.

There's other reasons why we don't get big dangerous displays of power. The whole story was about how finesse and cleverness are as important if not more so than brute force. Kenton is the viewpoint with the fewest ribbons ever admitted into the Diem, so no, we don't see him leaping hundreds of feet or spearing dozens of opponents simultaneously, but Drile almost certainly would be able to. With more time spent Over Mastering, Kenton will be capable of such feats as well.

That's my understanding of White Sand, though I'm open to other views. That said... a nod to your comment I assume is about Game of Thrones, it was around this time that Brandon was writing as a yet unpublished author trying to break in that Brandon literally got feedback from editors asking if he could write more like George R. R. Martin. It's just a bit funny and a bit sad that the series you are comparing White Sand to is the one that editors said Brandon wasn't enough like as a new and insecure author. It's fine if not every author and not every book published is a favorite - and if you want more George R. R. Martin, good for you I hope you find more authors who will do what Martin does for you. That author may not be Brandon (when he tried to write like Martin it was laughably bad and super "grim-dark darky dark"), but I'm glad we have Brandon and the Cosmere.

[Edgedancer03]

 

Hey, I know I'm coming into this way after everyone else stopped discussing it but I want to say my piece anyway.

On 8/27/2024 at 5:30 AM, samsocial said:

Sand masters can manipulate sand in ribbons. In book it is used to fight, pull some stuff up/down, move objects.

what is special in that ? it can be achieved with some rope, pulley mechanism. they have build boats, making technology pulling some stuff up isn't much complicated for them

for fighting, there are better weapons available, and sand mastery fails many times with its flaws. they could not even save their own people because of their flaws 

is there more to their powers or they can be made redundant with advanced technology ?

 

I agree with most other replies. The potential of Sand Mastery has not been fully explored. In fact, a key part of Kenton's character arc was that his potential was supposedly limited. I would LOVE to see what a skilled Sand Master could do if they were powered by Dor.

The point I want to make however is that looking at the above comment I see a basic premise. 

If the things magic can do can be replicated by technology, the magic system is therefore lame, redundant, or not special in some way. 

If this was not what you meant I apologize, but it's what I hear when I read the above questions. 

I find myself disagreeing with this premise.

Spoilers for Mistborn

Spoiler

Mistborn era 2 explored this exact concept, and I strongly suspect that Mistborn Ghostbloods will dive into it even further. Certain types of allomancy have been replicated by technology on Scadrial. Getting shot in the head is about the same as having a coinshot fling a coin through you brain. Sure, the Coinshot is more convenient or more flexible in a couple ways, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone with a pistol can output the same amount of damage as a coinshot and considerably more than a pewterarm. And yet, allomancy on Scadrial is far from irrelevant. I realize it's not the same situation, but there are parallels

There's also the point that the Sand Masters were a culture more so than a military. Sand Mastery to them was not a way to fight or save lives, it was an art form. A source of competition. Skill in Sand Mastery was source of pride, not intimidation. Even if technology on Taldain advanced to a point that Sand Mastery became completely irrelevant, which it seems like it may have, I suspect many would still practice their tradition. Not because its useful, but because, to them, its beautiful.

I also think Sand Mastery is very cool

 

[Through the living Wahr He/Him]

So i noticed that youre new here, Consider a Intropost here to let people know what you have and haven't read, which ever list is shorter. Also its generall forum practice to keep topics inactive if no one has posted in them for over a year. For the Forums Code of Conduct se Here 

Edited February 4 by Wahrheitswächter

[Nitpicking]

@Wahrheitswächter, any idea why the admins don't follow normal practice and close old forum topics after some set period, say six months? It's just a setting in your forum software (says the former professional sysop).

[Trusk'our he/him]

22 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

@Wahrheitswächter, any idea why the admins don't follow normal practice and close old forum topics after some set period, say six months? It's just a setting in your forum software (says the former professional sysop).

I asked them that question a few days ago. They told me they don't know how to do it.

[Treamayne]

36 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

@Wahrheitswächter, any idea why the admins don't follow normal practice and close old forum topics after some set period, say six months? It's just a setting in your forum software (says the former professional sysop).

13 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I asked them that question a few days ago. They told me they don't know how to do it.

If the Invision base on which this is built has such a timing option, they have not yet found it.