I want to talk about Shallan..I hated her and now I don't

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I was in the Thoughts... thread discussing favorite characters, and I was describing how I have never had one, single favorite character. My love and anger with characters ebbs and flows as I change/evolve as a person, and I personally have loved going back and re-reading Sanderson's works (but especially SA1-4) and seeing how my thoughts, feelings, and connections to the characters have changed.  @Treamayne  quoted me and commented on that thread,
 

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We'll see what SA5 brings (no spoilers please, I'm avoiding previews) but, so far, I'm the opposite. Discussed in more detail here - but basically,I liked Shallan in the early books, but really started to dislike her in Oathbringer (to the point where that is my least favorite SA book - pretty much all due to her sections) and RoW didn't improve much for me. 

It really is hard to choose a favorite character, but I am relaly looking forward to more Renarin in the back-half, because I think he will be my favorite once we get enough backstory and screentime to put context on what we know (which is not much). 

which I wanted to respond to (and I will below) without highjacking a thread that isn't mine, while also steering clear of the problems in the thread Treamayne linked to.

For the record, I have never hated any character so much that I got toxic about it. No great story is great without great characters. Any characters that stir up half as much emotion as Sanderson's are top-tier IMO. I commented in the thread that my favorite character(s) change every single time I re-read SA, and I mean it. It's like reading a book that's been heavily edited since the last time I picked it up. It may just be my wild brain, but it's a fun ride none-the-less. All of this is clearly linked to my mental health journey, which I'm still pluggin away at, and is both about the journey AND the destination (sorry Brandon). As I have changed, healed some, and grown, I have come to find a deep and abiding kinship with Shallan, because there was a large amount of time for me where I doubted my own mind, and that feeling was constant for far to long. I could never feel 100% certain that the way I thought things happened (or were happening) was actually what was going on. That was all trauma-based and until I really got into it with a top-notch therapist, I felt isolated in a way I didn't know was possible. I felt alone, even from myself.

Where I first started to despise Shallan was in WoR. The decisions she made didn't make sense to me, and they made even less sense (to me) in OB and RoW. It got to the point where I would roll my eyes and make angry noises when the perspective shifted back to her. In my opinion at the time, she was a Walter White character who was only ever going to get worse and worse, and I had no patience with her.

That was then, now (and for more than a year) I have come to feel much of the same feelings Shallan has, or does, display on the page. I came to viscerally understand that so many of her choices were not because she's a bad person (or a bad character), but because she doesn't know who she is..she doesn't trust who she is..and she's terrified to find out who she is. When you are constantly running from that thing you are most afraid of, you'll go just about anywhere to avoid it. That's a serious oversimplification, because trying to get into the minutia of my own experiences and how it's connected me to Shallan's would probably be a novel until itself.

For the record, since I tagged Treamayne in this, I want to make it clear that they have never once made me feel poorly for any of my thoughts/opinions/etc. They've only ever been helpful, supportive, and constructive in any criticisms offered, and I'm thankful for them being here on the shard.

What I do want to say is that Shallan is a fantastically written character. If you hate her, she will get better (and maybe worse before that happens) as time goes on, and even if she doesn't get better for you, that's ok. Nowhere is it written that you have to love ever last character in a series, and this series will end up with 100+ "main characters," so you're probably not going to like all of them.

The fact that I felt little, to no, connection to Shallan at all (from mid WoR-RoW) on my first several readings, speaks to my lack of experience and perspective much more than a lack of depth in how she is presented to us as an audience. I would also like to caution fellow fans who may have deep loathing for her..or Moash..or any other lightning rod character in SA. These characters are suffering from trauma-induced mental illnesses. Brandon has gone out of his way to consult with experts and folks who have (and do) suffered from these illnesses. You may hate Shallan, and you may feel justified in that hatred (which you might be, she's a made-up character and will never be affected by your feelings) but there are many, many folks on this forum, and other forums, who suffer from very real mental illness(s) who you are not justified in heaping abuse on. And in case you aren't aware, it can definitely feel like you are pointing that vitriol directly at someone who feels deep connection with certain characters that you're railing against.

I mentioned Moash, not to devolve this entire thread into a hate-fest, but because while I do not like him, I have come to understand him much better during this time in my life. He's not excused from his actions (quite the contrary, just as I'm not excused from mine), but they make sense to me in a way that they most certainly didn't before I'd grown in my sense of self. I also mention him because, like me, there are others who feel a connection with him. For me, that connection is representative of poor choices I've made..that at the time..seemed justified or even the logical choice to make. However looking back, I can see how I was acting out of negative emotions, trauma-damage, and/or mental illness, among other things. Worry not, I've never (SA 1-4 Moash spoilers)
 

Spoiler

murdered any friends (or enemies), or knowingly betrayed people I love because I had hurt feelings and wanted everyone to just do what I want, and to hell with the consequences

so, in case you got the wrong idea, I'm good.

I started this because I had thoughts about Shallan and it sort of spiraled into a whole thing. If you've made it all the way down here, thanks for reading this far

My original thought/question/discussion topic was and is...are there any characters that you've had a massive change of view/opinion on? I'm most interested in characters that you really didn't like that now you do..however the inverse is valid because there's still 6 main volumes yet to be published in SA (and most certainly several novellas and/or SPs) that we have remaining. If your thoughts have changed on someone significantly in 4 books, they can change just as much over the rest of the series. I will probably come back to this thread over the years, if/when I have other seismic shifts in opinion on other characters. Shallan was someone I deeply disliked, and it was almost entirely because I didn't understand most of her logic/decisions, and now I feel like I do (at least much better than I did).

If you've come around on someone (or multiple characters) what's your story and what lead you to that change?

 

[agrabes]

I think for me, Adolin is probably the character I've had the most change of feelings about.  In early books, my personal feelings were more "meh" about Adolin and the way so many people here seemed to really love him honestly turned me off to him.  That said, I felt his arc in RoW was one of the best parts of that book.  It felt like he stood on his own in RoW and did his own thing for himself.  I'm probably not describing it well, but I think his character settled in for me after that.

In terms of Shallan, I probably had the opposite arc from you.  I really liked her in early books.  She felt interesting and relatable and was clearly dealing with trauma, like you said.  In Oathbringer, I really disliked the arc she took with her personality disorder.  Honestly, if anything I would say discussions in the community and debates over the nature of that condition, what is an acceptable way to think about her condition, etc really turned me off.  But I felt like I also like the way her arc went in RoW.  The Adolin/Shallan arc in general was the best arc of RoW by far.

The other thing that bothers me about characters in general is the change in Sanderson's overall approach toward trauma and mental health issues.  I think in early books the approach was to try to realistically portray people suffering from mental health conditions as part of the overall story.  A little bit in OB but especially in RoW we are starting to see these mental health issues take center stage such as Kaladin's arc of going to the mental health hospital/sanitorium.  I feel like that is just a bit too much on the nose.  These kinds of things work when you have someone like Kaladin suffering from depression and you show some of the ways he struggles with that, what helps, and what hurts him.  If you have him on screen saying "doing x is good, doing y is bad" it starts to feel a bit preachy.  I'm interested in a book about a band of heroes trying to fight evil and save the world - having people struggle with their mental health as part of that is great.  I'm not interested in a book about how my favorite magical warrior becomes a therapist.  I do wonder if Sanderson is going to do a bit of course correction on some of this.

 

Either way though, I'm really excited to start seeing the preview chapters coming out in a few weeks and looking forward to discussing it all here!  Hope to see a lot of familiar names back on these boards.

[Treamayne]

29 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

until I really got into it with a top-notch therapist,

Very happy to hear you are getting the help you need and are improving.

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I'm most interested in characters that you really didn't like that now you do

For me, the Cosmere character that is closest to this is Zane (Mistborn Spoilers):

Spoiler

The first time or two that I read Era 1, I did not like Zane or his plot. I felt it was a shoe-horned love-triangle (though, to be fair, I was reading this around the time Twilight Team X/Y debates exploded - really souring any love-triangle plots in any form) with a bland antagonist. I had also "accepted" Vin's (erroneous) conclusions about the scars on his arms. Time passed. . . 

I read the books further, I read the annotations and then I made the connection (that is not mentioned in-book). The Annotations note that Zane is a Cutter* and that is the source of his arm scars (granted, we do see him do this once, but that seemed mostly about making Straff squirm). As I read again, I noticed the little details my earlier assumptions allowed me to miss. 

For Sharders who have read some of my other comments on these types of threads, you may recall that my father was also emotionally and mentally abusive. I, too, was a cutter in adolescence. I started seeing these details and hints in Zane, his personality, his interactions with Straff, etc. And it all clicked. I would not say that Zane is a favorite character; but I do now appreciate the sublety that was used to depict something important to the character, but so far from the actual plot that an in-story explanation would be inappropriate. Zane was abused, Zane was unstable (and further worsened due to his spike); but suddenly Zane was relatable. Annotation to Ch 27:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vin and Zane Watch Outside the Tent

Zane's cutting has an interesting evolution in the story. At first, I added him cutting himself simply because–well–it made a cool scene. Zane, cutting his own arm in front of his father, primarily to make the other man uncomfortable.

However, there's more behind this, and the cutting worked very well into the interaction of the different magic systems in the book. Particularly Hemalurgy. The pain makes the voice in Zane's head weaker. There will be more on this later.

I'll admit that I didn't originally intend to make the Zane-Kelsier connection with those scars on his arms. However, when writing this scene, I couldn't believe I'd missed seeing what a great opportunity I had. Vin already associates Zane with the Survivor; letting her see the scars on his arms gives her another powerful connection, particularly since she misinterprets where they came from.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (March 6, 2008)

* - For those unfamiliar, Cutter is a term for a person who inflicts self harm - usually as a way to replace emotional pain with physical pain. Granted, that is an extreme over-simplification - but should be enough for context. 

 

47 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think in early books the approach was to try to realistically portray people suffering from mental health conditions as part of the overall story.  A little bit in OB but especially in RoW we are starting to see these mental health issues take center stage such as Kaladin's arc of going to the mental health hospital/sanitorium.  I feel like that is just a bit too much on the nose. 

I don't know if you have read Altered Perceptions (discussed more at the linked post), or Sanderson's Essay for that anthology, but the bolded part was a significant influence on Way of Kings:

Essay Excerpt:

Spoiler

 I began to see how people with depression are treated in the media and books, and I started to wonder. Where are our fantasy heroes with depression? This disease affects a huge percentage of the population. Does every character with depression need to be relegated to being in a story only about their illness? Couldn’t we have a character who was heroic, dynamic, interesting—and, oh, by the way, he has depression. Not something for the story to be about, just something that—like exists in so many of our lives—is another aspect of who he is, that reflects his worldview.

 

27 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

For the record, since I tagged Treamayne in this, I want to make it clear that they have never once made me feel poorly for any of my thoughts/opinions/etc. They've only ever been helpful, supportive, and constructive in any criticisms offered, and I'm thankful for them being here on the shard.

Thank you. My personal goal has been to shut up unless I can either be helpful (answer questions, find references) or constructive (advice, etc.).

Some of my favorite (non-Sanderson) quotes (and guiding principals) come from Jim Butcher books (Dresden Files, Codex Alera - minor spoielrs):

Spoiler

Quote

Always to be polite. It costs you nothing but breath, and can buy you as much as your life.

• Dresden Files - Skin Game

Quote

Speak only to those who listen. Anything else is a waste of breath.

• Codex Alera - Captain's Fury

Quote

You are different. That does not make you less.

• Codex Alera - Academ's Fury

 

Thank you for the thread @JohnnyKaizen.

Hope that helps. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

I think for me, Adolin is probably the character I've had the most change of feelings about.

Hard agree. I feel pretty similarly to you on this. I warmed up to him in OB however, when the potential of his development was revealed..it was honestly what I had long hoped would happen but thought I was probably imagining it. I'm happy that I wasn't.

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

The other thing that bothers me about characters in general is the change in Sanderson's overall approach toward trauma and mental health issues. 

From my perspective, I see Sanderson writing his characters in a such a way that mental illness gets in the way of everything. With Kaladin specifically, I certainly can understand how his development can feel heavy-handed, but it's clearly going somewhere. Kaladin has accepted that he can't kill to protect. Not when you want to protect the people you are supposed to be killing. I believe that him becoming a therapist (which he is really trailblazing previously unknown therapies) is leading him to the 5th Ideal. Which I'm more and more thinking will be something along the lines of, "They best way to protect, is to bring Peace." War is a monster to everyone caught up in it, and the only way to truly protect people from it, is to end it. I think that this progression will come directly out of Kaladin's journey to mental health. I can certainly understand how that can feel like a slog, and I'm not really sure if there is a better way to get where Sanderson is going...simply because he wants to go straight through depression (and other mental illnesses).

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

I do wonder if Sanderson is going to do a bit of course correction on some of this.

 I'm not sure if I'd categorize it as course-correction, but he most definitely has a destination in mind, beyond the mental illness..to healing, power, and change.

 

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Very happy to hear you are getting the help you need and are improving.

Thank you, sincerely. It had been a long time coming, and it really is one of the greatest sources of joy in my life.

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

For me, the Cosmere character that is closest to this is Zane (Mistborn Spoilers):

This makes me realize I need to go back and re-read era 1. I haven't in a long time, and I feel like I'm going to end up agreeing with you on him.

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Thank you for the thread @JohnnyKaizen.

Hope that helps. 

You're welcome, and yes, it does.

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Hard agree. I feel pretty similarly to you on this. I warmed up to him in OB however, when the potential of his development was revealed..it was honestly what I had long hoped would happen but thought I was probably imagining it. I'm happy that I wasn't.

From my perspective, I see Sanderson writing his characters in a such a way that mental illness gets in the way of everything. With Kaladin specifically, I certainly can understand how his development can feel heavy-handed, but it's clearly going somewhere. Kaladin has accepted that he can't kill to protect. Not when you want to protect the people you are supposed to be killing. I believe that him becoming a therapist (which he is really trailblazing previously unknown therapies) is leading him to the 5th Ideal. Which I'm more and more thinking will be something along the lines of, "They best way to protect, is to bring Peace." War is a monster to everyone caught up in it, and the only way to truly protect people from it, is to end it. I think that this progression will come directly out of Kaladin's journey to mental health. I can certainly understand how that can feel like a slog, and I'm not really sure if there is a better way to get where Sanderson is going...simply because he wants to go straight through depression (and other mental illnesses).

 I'm not sure if I'd categorize it as course-correction, but he most definitely has a destination in mind, beyond the mental illness..to healing, power, and change.

 

 

Thank you, sincerely. It had been a long time coming, and it really is one of the greatest sources of joy in my life.

 

This makes me realize I need to go back and re-read era 1. I haven't in a long time, and I feel like I'm going to end up agreeing with you on him.

 

You're welcome, and yes, it does.

I think that's a good way of looking at it in terms of Kaladin's arc.  I do like the idea of the Windrunner 5th Ideal being about bringing peace.  I don't really like the idea of the route to that going through an awkward arc of preaching about therapy.  I'd like to see it more along the lines of recognizing that peace is the best way through practical reality.  I think you're on to something that this is something Kaladin is learning throughout RoW.  An arc where he observes people with PTSD, depression, or other mental health challenges and comes to understand that the war is the cause of all these things is good.  What we actually got was not really that though.  I don't think it's good (or necessary) for Kaladin to become some kind of proto-therapist in order to realize he should aim for peace.

I guess what I mean by course correction is - return to the style he used in earlier books.  Portray Kaladin in how he deals with his mental health while he's out doing dynamic things in the world.  Please, please don't have a plot about him serving as a therapist to Ishar.  Please.  If he wants to have a debate about morality or war and peace or whatever it may be I'm totally down.  What I really want though is for Kaladin to really think about and decide things for himself - be forward-looking for once.  I know that's hard for people who have depression in real life.  Anyway, I think I mostly agree with/like what you're saying I just hope it's handled a little more subtlely vs RoW.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 7/19/2024 at 5:58 PM, agrabes said:

I guess what I mean by course correction is - return to the style he used in earlier books.  Portray Kaladin in how he deals with his mental health while he's out doing dynamic things in the world.  Please, please don't have a plot about him serving as a therapist to Ishar.  Please.  If he wants to have a debate about morality or war and peace or whatever it may be I'm totally down.  What I really want though is for Kaladin to really think about and decide things for himself - be forward-looking for once.  I know that's hard for people who have depression in real life.  Anyway, I think I mostly agree with/like what you're saying I just hope it's handled a little more subtlely vs RoW.

Honestly, I'm not sure how he's handled it. I would be very surprised if Kaladin was in any way a therapist to Ishar, as his insanity is (to a great degree) magical in nature. I am curious where the intersections of (I'll say Kaladin because we've been discussing him) Kaladin's mental health, the restoration of B-A-M, Ishar's sanity, and the champions duel all meet. There is a lot to get through in this book, and as always, I feel like we're not going to get to it all. But, hopefully I'm wrong. I also hope that the feeling of what you're saying pans out as well. I do understand the negatives you've described and the reasons why it feels bad...I do think I am giving Brandon more leeway because of my personal experiences, but I also recognize that he's really aware of his audience. I trust that he will take us somewhere we enjoy going. That's my feeling on it anyway.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

On 7/19/2024 at 11:33 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

If you've come around on someone (or multiple characters) what's your story and what lead you to that change?

Kaladin for starters. I really disliked how whiny he was in early books. Like I get it, he was going through some stuff, but his reaction to it always felt so "my life is harder than everyone else's" when, in reality, the things that happened to him pale in comparison to a lot of other characters. I feel like in RoW he is still struggling, but he isn't such a whiner about it. He is also recognizing the struggle other people are going through, and he is acknowledging all of the people that are trying to help him in RoW, which I think is a huge improvement on his character. I hope when he swears the 5th Oath it has something to do with realizing that fighting isn't the only way to protect people.

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Kaladin for starters. I really disliked how whiny he was in early books. Like I get it, he was going through some stuff, but his reaction to it always felt so "my life is harder than everyone else's" when, in reality, the things that happened to him pale in comparison to a lot of other characters. I feel like in RoW he is still struggling, but he isn't such a whiner about it. He is also recognizing the struggle other people are going through, and he is acknowledging all of the people that are trying to help him in RoW, which I think is a huge improvement on his character. I hope when he swears the 5th Oath it has something to do with realizing that fighting isn't the only way to protect people.

Interestingly, this is one of those things that actually seems to have a definitive "turning point." WoR Ch 71:

Spoiler

“You still think I’m too optimistic, don’t you?” Shallan said.

“It’s not your fault,” Kaladin said. “I’d rather be like you. I’d rather not have lived the life I have. I would that the world was only full of people like you, Shallan Davar.”

“People who don’t understand pain.”

“Oh, all people understand pain,” Kaladin said. “That’s not what I’m talking about. It’s . . .”

“The sorrow,” Shallan said softly, “of watching a life crumble? Of struggling to grab it and hold on, but feeling hope become stringy sinew and blood beneath your fingers as everything collapses?”

“Yes.”

“The sensation—it’s not sorrow, but something deeper—of being broken. Of being crushed so often, and so hatefully, that emotion becomes something you can only wish for. If only you could cry, because then you’d feel something. Instead, you feel nothing. Just . . . haze and smoke inside. Like you’re already dead.”

He stopped in the chasm.

She turned and looked to him. “The crushing guilt,” she said, “of being powerless. Of wishing they’d hurt you instead of those around you. Of screaming and scrambling and hating as those you love are ruined, popped like a boil. And you have to watch their joy seeping away while you can’t do anything. They break the ones you love, and not you. And you plead. Can’t you just beat me instead?”

“Yes,” he whispered.

Shallan nodded, holding his eyes. “Yes. It would be nice if nobody in the world knew of those things, Kaladin Stormblessed. I agree. With everything I have.”

He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

“How?” he asked.

She shrugged lightly. “Helps if you’re crazy. Come on. I do believe we’re under a slight time constraint . . .”

She started down the chasm. He stood behind, feeling drained. And oddly brightened.

He should feel like a fool. He’d done it again—he’d been telling her how easy her life was, while she’d had that hiding inside of her all along. This time, though, he didn’t feel like an idiot. He felt like he understood. Something. He didn’t know what. The chasm just seemed a little brighter.

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 7/27/2024 at 8:46 PM, Treamayne said:

Interestingly, this is one of those things that actually seems to have a definitive "turning point." WoR Ch 71:

  Hide contents

“You still think I’m too optimistic, don’t you?” Shallan said.

“It’s not your fault,” Kaladin said. “I’d rather be like you. I’d rather not have lived the life I have. I would that the world was only full of people like you, Shallan Davar.”

“People who don’t understand pain.”

“Oh, all people understand pain,” Kaladin said. “That’s not what I’m talking about. It’s . . .”

“The sorrow,” Shallan said softly, “of watching a life crumble? Of struggling to grab it and hold on, but feeling hope become stringy sinew and blood beneath your fingers as everything collapses?”

“Yes.”

“The sensation—it’s not sorrow, but something deeper—of being broken. Of being crushed so often, and so hatefully, that emotion becomes something you can only wish for. If only you could cry, because then you’d feel something. Instead, you feel nothing. Just . . . haze and smoke inside. Like you’re already dead.”

He stopped in the chasm.

She turned and looked to him. “The crushing guilt,” she said, “of being powerless. Of wishing they’d hurt you instead of those around you. Of screaming and scrambling and hating as those you love are ruined, popped like a boil. And you have to watch their joy seeping away while you can’t do anything. They break the ones you love, and not you. And you plead. Can’t you just beat me instead?”

“Yes,” he whispered.

Shallan nodded, holding his eyes. “Yes. It would be nice if nobody in the world knew of those things, Kaladin Stormblessed. I agree. With everything I have.”

He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

“How?” he asked.

She shrugged lightly. “Helps if you’re crazy. Come on. I do believe we’re under a slight time constraint . . .”

She started down the chasm. He stood behind, feeling drained. And oddly brightened.

He should feel like a fool. He’d done it again—he’d been telling her how easy her life was, while she’d had that hiding inside of her all along. This time, though, he didn’t feel like an idiot. He felt like he understood. Something. He didn’t know what. The chasm just seemed a little brighter.

 

Apparently, I still can't read that passage without tearing up, but that's nothing new. And yeah, I agree that Kaladin certainly had a moment of change/growth there.

 

On 7/27/2024 at 8:28 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Kaladin for starters. I really disliked how whiny he was in early books. Like I get it, he was going through some stuff, but his reaction to it always felt so "my life is harder than everyone else's" when, in reality, the things that happened to him pale in comparison to a lot of other characters. I feel like in RoW he is still struggling, but he isn't such a whiner about it. He is also recognizing the struggle other people are going through, and he is acknowledging all of the people that are trying to help him in RoW, which I think is a huge improvement on his character. I hope when he swears the 5th Oath it has something to do with realizing that fighting isn't the only way to protect people.

I identified with Kaladin, almost immediately. It was young Kaladin that I couldn't stand. I have come to love both, despite there flaws. Mostly because I share many of those flaws, and it's difficult to accept that if you haven't processed and accepted it yourself. I most definitely can see why Kaladin is one of the characters that's really disliked by a lot of people. I definitely see that personal experience can color that opinion pretty heavily.