Speculations on Willshaper Ideals aka how close will they be to Windrunner ones?

[Benkinsky they/them]

So. After being introduced to different orders over the course of the first three books, two of which are "special cases" (Lightweavers, Bondsmiths), Venli was the first Radiant of a "normal" order since Kaladin, and she has only sworn the first two oaths so far.

"Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination"

"I will seek freedom for those in bondage."

We will probably see more of her in future books, which I think is cool. I look forward to learning more about the order. The other day, I wondered how close the ideals will be to Windrunner ones. Freeing and Protecting are both pretty much considered unambiguously good things, and the exceptions is where the higher oaths come in. If they are close to the Windrunner Oaths, i could imagine future oaths being things like

Third Oath:
"I will seek freedom even for those I hate" (something like that)

yeah, I know, very close to Kaladin's. But I mean, Kaladin HATED Lighteyes and it was a big moment for him to realise that his desire to protect the weak was stronger than his hate for the privileged. Hence saving Elokhar. Venli HATES humans, for the most part, so I could very much imagine she gets a story arc where she realizes that being bossed around or imprisoned or such by Fused or Lighteyes is something she still hates more. Could be Venli helping some poor humans out from others, could be Venli helping out humans from under the Fused, something like that. Could be even more intense if its something like the Sadeas Army under the Thrill or so, where she realizes that these people don't have free will at the moment and tries to free them from that. Like, originally being happy to see humans fighting each other and then realizing its wrong still.

Fourth Oath:
"I accept that there are those that I cannot free"
like an addict who you cannot help unless they want to help themselves, or simply having to accept your own limitations, but that feels too close to Kaladin's fourth oath even to me. Instead, how about:
"I accept that there are those that need to be bound".
Radically, Willshapers would need to go around and free people from prisons constantly. The fact that that apprently wasnt the case in the past tells me that nuance is part of what they practice and learn. I can imagine that that is a good spot for most Willshapers to cap out. Realizing that some people/forces/beings need to be locked up. Like the Thrill, for example. Could be extra fun if its Odium trying to task Venli with freeing the Thrill or some other powerful Fused, and in the Sanderlanche Venli reveals her Radiance with her Fourth Oath lol

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

So. After being introduced to different orders over the course of the first three books, two of which are "special cases" (Lightweavers, Bondsmiths), Venli was the first Radiant of a "normal" order since Kaladin, and she has only sworn the first two oaths so far.

"Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination"

"I will seek freedom for those in bondage."

We will probably see more of her in future books, which I think is cool. I look forward to learning more about the order. The other day, I wondered how close the ideals will be to Windrunner ones. Freeing and Protecting are both pretty much considered unambiguously good things, and the exceptions is where the higher oaths come in. If they are close to the Windrunner Oaths, i could imagine future oaths being things like

Third Oath:
"I will seek freedom even for those I hate" (something like that)

yeah, I know, very close to Kaladin's. But I mean, Kaladin HATED Lighteyes and it was a big moment for him to realise that his desire to protect the weak was stronger than his hate for the privileged. Hence saving Elokhar. Venli HATES humans, for the most part, so I could very much imagine she gets a story arc where she realizes that being bossed around or imprisoned or such by Fused or Lighteyes is something she still hates more. Could be Venli helping some poor humans out from others, could be Venli helping out humans from under the Fused, something like that. Could be even more intense if its something like the Sadeas Army under the Thrill or so, where she realizes that these people don't have free will at the moment and tries to free them from that. Like, originally being happy to see humans fighting each other and then realizing its wrong still.

Fourth Oath:
"I accept that there are those that I cannot free"
like an addict who you cannot help unless they want to help themselves, or simply having to accept your own limitations, but that feels too close to Kaladin's fourth oath even to me. Instead, how about:
"I accept that there are those that need to be bound".
Radically, Willshapers would need to go around and free people from prisons constantly. The fact that that apprently wasnt the case in the past tells me that nuance is part of what they practice and learn. I can imagine that that is a good spot for most Willshapers to cap out. Realizing that some people/forces/beings need to be locked up. Like the Thrill, for example. Could be extra fun if its Odium trying to task Venli with freeing the Thrill or some other powerful Fused, and in the Sanderlanche Venli reveals her Radiance with her Fourth Oath lol

I think it will be less about literal Bondage and more just about the freedom to Choose for ones self.  So I think the 3rd will be something more along the lines of "I will support the Choices of others, even if I disagree with their path" / "Others must be Free to disagree with me".  And along the same lines it would make the 4th a little more like "I accept that sometimes I must deny Freedom to Nurture it" with something of a parental theme.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

2 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

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I think it will be less about literal Bondage and more just about the freedom to Choose for ones self.  So I think the 3rd will be something more along the lines of "I will support the Choices of others, even if I disagree with their path" / "Others must be Free to disagree with me".  And along the same lines it would make the 4th a little more like "I accept that sometimes I must deny Freedom to Nurture it" with something of a parental theme.

This is where I was thinking. 3rd oath for Windrunners is taking a step in the ideal of protection past some personal difficulty of views - hence the protect even those you hate. For Willshapers being Freedom themed, it would make sense that 3rd ideal is taking them a step in the ideal of freedom over a personal issue there - supporting someone having the freedom to disagree with you makes perfect sense for this oath.

[Benkinsky they/them]

Ooh I like that a lot. accepting that freedom might mean that others make decisions you don't like. That Rlain decided to go back to the humans rather than stay with the Listeners, for example.

[ZMPr0wler He/Him]

The one I think is a good option, "I will remove control of those that control others."