Mechanical properties of Atium

[ulyssessword he/him]

snip

However we also know Atium reacts chemically, which requires charge and electrons, it also has mass.

/snip

No, we don't know that (though, it is the most likely explanation). It is possible that atium is not chemical at all, and reacts to being inside a human (or, an allomancer's) body, as opposed to reacting to acid.

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

No, we don't know that (though, it is the most likely explanation). It is possible that atium is not chemical at all, and reacts to being inside a human (or, an allomancer's) body, as opposed to reacting to acid.

We do know it has mass, though, unless massless gravity simulation is a property of Ruin's power.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

What if Atium wasn't matter? It has mass, and has metallic properties, but isn't matter?

Here's what I'm thinking: The three realms (Physical, Spiritual, and Cognitive) each have things which are primarily "of" that realm. Reflections of these things exist in the other Realms, and can interact with the other things in that realm, but aren't really there. So matter is anything "of" the Physical Realm, while the god metals, shardpools, and mist are of the Spiritual Realm.

This would mean that Atium has physical presence in the Physical Realm, but it isn't actually composed of the fundamental particles that define matter.

It's kind of a Plato's Caveish kind of idea.

[Bremen]

No, we don't know that (though, it is the most likely explanation). It is possible that atium is not chemical at all, and reacts to being inside a human (or, an allomancer's) body, as opposed to reacting to acid.

It also alloys with metals. If it were chemically inert, like noble gasses, this seems unlikely.

What if Atium wasn't matter? It has mass, and has metallic properties, but isn't matter?Here's what I'm thinking: The three realms (Physical, Spiritual, and Cognitive) each have things which are primarily "of" that realm. Reflections of these things exist in the other Realms, and can interact with the other things in that realm, but aren't really there. So matter is anything "of" the Physical Realm, while the god metals, shardpools, and mist are of the Spiritual Realm.This would mean that Atium has physical presence in the Physical Realm, but it isn't actually composed of the fundamental particles that define matter.It's kind of a Plato's Caveish kind of idea.

Why would Ruin be searching for a physical shadow of a spiritual object? Seems if it existed in the spiritual realm he would look there.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

It also alloys with metals. If it were chemically inert, like noble gasses, this seems unlikely.

Heck - it's a solid. If it were noble gas, that would be rather difficult at room temperature.

Why would Ruin be searching for a physical shadow of a spiritual object? Seems if it existed in the spiritual realm he would look there.

Maybe echo isn't the right word, but the idea was that Atium belongs in the Spiritual Realm, and in the Physical Realm it manifests as something that looks like matter, but isn't, 'cause it's spiritual.

[Eric]

It also alloys with metals. If it were chemically inert, like noble gasses, this seems unlikely.

Actually, not at all. Alloys are not generally formed of molecules, but of atoms in suspension. It does not need to be chemically active to form an alloy at all (which is something I've addressed elsewhere). For example, steel is carbon suspended in iron, altering the crystal structure to change physical properties, not some variant of C_?Fe_?.

Heck - it's a solid. If it were noble gas, that would be rather difficult at room temperature.

"...chemically inert, like noble gases..." It was just a comparison, I think.

Why would Ruin be searching for a physical shadow of a spiritual object? Seems if it existed in the spiritual realm he would look there.

Because metal has a bright spiritual presence, blinding him from finding it. It's actually a pretty clever bit of insight. I like it.

Maybe echo isn't the right word, but the idea was that Atium belongs in the Spiritual Realm, and in the Physical Realm it manifests as something that looks like matter, but isn't, 'cause it's spiritual.

It looks and acts like rather like a metal in the physical realm, while in the spiritual realm metals look and act rather like the power of a Shard. But not being actual spiritual power, he can't just absorb metal... I really like this theory. Someone go ask Brandon! Authors don't sleep, right? Or is that ninjas...?

Now, for me, the question becomes how distinct might Atium be from an actual metal? Given the impossible nature of stable astatine, I could readily marry these two theories. "Behaves like stable astatine might, having roughly the same mass and similar expected properties." I like the mass number being a multiple of 16, mostly just because. I also like having a set of chemical properties to discuss...

[Bremen]

Heck - it's a solid. If it were noble gas, that would be rather difficult at room temperature.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The point was noble gases do not react with other elements, not even to join a metal lattice (nitrogen can be used in alloys, so being a gas is not a dealbreaker).

[Bremen]

Actually, not at all. Alloys are not generally formed of molecules, but of atoms in suspension. It does not need to be chemically active to form an alloy at all (which is something I've addressed elsewhere). For example, steel is carbon suspended in iron, altering the crystal structure to change physical properties, not some variant of C_?Fe_?.

oops, I didn't realize an element in an alloy could be chemically inert, but wikipedia confirms it!

[Eric]

Ninja'd. Original post removed.

Response to the ninja post: That's actually my problem with Allomancy. It seems to be based off of the shape of the lattice of the material, which you might be able to duplicate with other materials, since we know it doesn't have to be a perfect match. There's no chemical reaction that changes the iron into steel, but swallowing carbon with your iron won't work for that (I assume).

Edited April 29, 2012 by Eric

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The point was noble gases do not react with other elements, not even to join a metal lattice (nitrogen can be used in alloys, so being a gas is not a dealbreaker).

I was trying to say that even before alloying Atium with other metals, you'd be unlikely to find a noble gas with a metal lattice. Sorry if I was being needlessly ambiguous.

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

Atium is matter, because it occupies space and has mass. However, I believe that is must behave differently from regular matter. The difficulty lies in discovering where the difference stems from. In other words, does it behave like other matter until you examine it on the molecular level, or the atomic level, or the subatomic level?

[Eric]

For clarity, there isn't a difference between the molecular and atomic level. Monatomic elements are singular atoms at the 'molecular' level.

Personally, I think it physically behaves exactly like some sort of mundane (if exceedingly rare and unlikely) matter. Until you examine it on the Spiritual or Cognitive levels, you won't know what it really is. Hence Rashek and Sazed being the only ones to ever figure it out in the course of the story.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Here's a theory on this.

1. All matter is an altered form of energy (known scientific fact)

Therefore, i propose the following.

2. All non-divine matter on Scadrial is composed of "normal" energy (the same kind as in our world.)

3. Atium and Lerasium are composed of the energy of their Shards.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Are there no molecules, just little models of Ati screaming "destroy, destroy!" instead?

+1 for funny

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

For clarity, there isn't a difference between the molecular and atomic level. Monatomic elements are singular atoms at the 'molecular' level.

Personally, I think it physically behaves exactly like some sort of mundane (if exceedingly rare and unlikely) matter. Until you examine it on the Spiritual or Cognitive levels, you won't know what it really is. Hence Rashek and Sazed being the only ones to ever figure it out in the course of the story.

Oops. I was just throwing out names of levels without consideration there. I believe that is possible, but I also believe that it is not simply a stable form of an an unstable existing element. While examining it with normal scientific procedures ("normal" being Earth-standard here) it may appear to be just another elements, I do not think that it will be any elements that exists on the "normal" Periodic Table so far, simply because it does not sound like something Brandon would pull to me.

[Bremen]

Any theory should probably account for mists and pools as well.

With mists I like the idea that it is a spiritual shadow. The mists do not act like normal physical objects, at the start of the series they appear from nowhere at night and disappear in the morning. They actively avoided Vin when she had the earing in. They also acted on autopilot without a cognitive entity to direct them.

This would make the pools a cognitive shadow. Leras sacrificed his cognitive mind to trap Ruin, that Ruin was trapped by the pool seems to indicate there is a cognitive element to it.

This would mean Atium/Lerasium are pure physical objects.

[Eric]

I disagree, insofar as the theories pertain to the thread topic. The mechanical/physical properties of the God metals don't really need explanations that involve pools or mists.

[Bremen]

I disagree, insofar as the theories pertain to the thread topic. The mechanical/physical properties of the God metals don't really need explanations that involve pools or mists.

Well, we've gotten a bit away from the mechanical properties of atium

mists and pools are different physical forms of the power in atium, if we want to understand exactly how atium works we probably need to understand whats going on with the other forms of power as well

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

I agree. For example, is the Well of Ascension the same element as Lerasium, only liquid? Or is it something else entirely? Is it another element or a pure expression of energy and not really a liquid at all.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

If you heat up Atium enough, will it melt into shardpool liquid?

[Bremen]

From the Brandonology

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

I'm too lazy to look up other quotes, but we also know the Pits are Ruin's pool, and most people believe the beads of Lerasium came from the Well of Ascension so liquid -> solid is almost certain. I would like to think reversing the process should not be so simple as applying heat to Atium, but in order to alloy it with another metal one would have to melt (liquefy) the atium...

[Triasmus]

Isn't ruin's pool under the pits or something? I believe that Brandon originally had Vin and Elend actually see ruins pool, but then the sites of the pools changed and stuff.

[Aeshdan he/him]

If I had to guess, I'd say that Atium is probably composed of subatomic particles, but different subatomic particles than you encounter anywhere else.

[Quantum Toast he/him]

Yeah. Although, I wonder what results would be yielded if someone examined Atium with modern scientific technology... How many electrons, protons, and neutrons does it have? Does it act as an element, and if so what is its atomic number? Are there no molecules, just little models of Ati screaming "destroy, destroy!" instead?

Personally I imagine a piece of Atium as appearing to be a single solid lump even at the subatomic scale. The idea of it being made of particles at all just doesn't feel right to me.

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

Personally I imagine a piece of Atium as appearing to be a single solid lump even at the subatomic scale. The idea of it being made of particles at all just doesn't feel right to me.

If it's not made of particles then it couldn't be digestible, or mailable, and you couldn't make it into an alloy. I'm pretty sure that would break physics in a vast number of other ways, too.