Spiking the Spiked

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

Do we have a WoB on what would happen if you attempted to spike an attribute out of an individual that he currently had obtained via another spike? For example if you attempted to use a Steel spike to take what you thought was a Thug's Allomantic pewter when actually the "Thug" only had the power from another spike. Would it work at all? Would the Investiture travel from one spike into another?

[king of nowhere]

Huh. I am figuring a scenario where yes, it does work that way, and if you give an Allomantic steel spike to a coinshot and then spike him the new spike will get both powers, and then giving that spike to another coinshot and spiking him too and so on and so forth to have unlimited power spike.

But, realistically, it probably won't work, ccause the power is in the sspike, not in the person.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

@king of nowhere Its stated that Spikes can only hold one Attribute at a time and that using an already charged spike to gain an Attribute removes the old attribute.

 

I personally doubt that this works as Hemalugy steals attributes from your victims soul web via touching their blood. We know that removing a spike removes the Attribute so more then likely this just kills the victim sense the ability is Grafted onto them and not permanently a part of them.

 

Even if it did work I don't think there is a good reason for it as Hemalurgy is an end negative art breaks down the ability it passes on and would weaken said attribute even further.

 

Now if the RAFO on burning Hemalurgy spike's ends up with the theory of attribute transfer being correct..... That could be useful.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

We of the Dark Alley have tested this, but are not authorized to release our findings at this time.

[king of nowhere]

@king of nowhere Its stated that Spikes can only hold one Attribute at a time and that using an already charged spike to gain an Attribute removes the old attribute.

 

Even if it did work I don't think there is a good reason for it as Hemalurgy is an end negative art breaks down the ability it passes on and would weaken said attribute even further.

 

Now if the RAFO on burning Hemalurgy spike's ends up with the theory of attribute transfer being correct..... That could be useful.

yeah, but in this case you're not trying to store two attributes in a spike. when you spike a coinshot with a Allomantic steel spike, you get a stronger coinshot. if you can spike that, you can get a stronger Allomantic steel spike. it is still end negative, because the spiked coinshot would be less powerful than his power and the original donor combined, and the new spike would be even less powerful than that. say, if you have two coinshot with a power of 1, you spike one and give the spike to the other making him a 1.9, and then spike him and with that spike you gain a power of 0.8.

 

 

I personally doubt that this works as Hemalugy steals attributes from your victims soul web via touching their blood. We know that removing a spike removes the Attribute so more then likely this just kills the victim sense the ability is Grafted onto them and not permanently a part of them.

I agree on that instead. As i said myself, it is highly unlikely for it to work. it just would be cool if it did.

[Oudeis he/him]

yeah, but in this case you're not trying to store two attributes in a spike. when you spike a coinshot with a Allomantic steel spike, you get a stronger coinshot. if you can spike that, you can get a stronger Allomantic steel spike. it is still end negative, because the spiked coinshot would be less powerful than his power and the original donor combined, and the new spike would be even less powerful than that. say, if you have two coinshot with a power of 1, you spike one and give the spike to the other making him a 1.9, and then spike him and with that spike you gain a power of 0.8.

 

I agree on that instead. As i said myself, it is highly unlikely for it to work. it just would be cool if it did.

 

Remember, though, how "messy" hemalurgy is. This probably doesn't mean simply the physical realm. The Hero of Ages mentions that he believes the reuse of the iron spikes on the Koloss was why their personalities shifted. Your idea might work, but you'd end up with one very powerful coinshot with fractions of a dozen souls stapled to his own. The end result probably would not be terribly stable.

[Redbird he/him]

This depends on if the bindpoints for receiving and losing abilities are different, was it ever stated that they were not?

[Shardcellist]

We of the Dark Alley have tested this, but are not authorized to release our findings at this time.

I believe the term used was "Executive RAFO."

 

 

 

As to the main point, I feel it raises a question. Does the stored attribute "stay in" the spike, where the user can "tap into" the power, or does it flow into the user when attached in such a way that the human could be used as a conduit for the second spike?

[Oudeis he/him]

As to the main point, I feel it raises a question. Does the stored attribute "stay in" the spike, where the user can "tap into" the power, or does it flow into the user when attached in such a way that the human could be used as a conduit for the second spike?

 

This... fascinates me. Per my own thoughts on Hemalurgy, I would absolutely have agreed that an attribute gained via spiking could never be stolen via a second spiking. However, your proposed model... is intriguing. I certainly don't think now "this is absolutely the case" but it's absolutely plausible, and I hereby change my mind. I am now no longer convinced that spiked attributes cannot be stolen via a hemalurgic spike. In fact, since your idea is both eminently plausible and far more interesting, I officially want your answer to be right.

 

I do wonder now. Per this model, what would be the spiritual traits of the original spike, post-theft?

[Fatebreaker he/him]

I believe the term used was "Executive RAFO."

 

 

 

As to the main point, I feel it raises a question. Does the stored attribute "stay in" the spike, where the user can "tap into" the power, or does it flow into the user when attached in such a way that the human could be used as a conduit for the second spike?

 

Or more accurately, SAFO (Spike And Find Out)

 

I always viewed it as you were ripping off a piece of someone else's spirit web and tacking it one to your own. The power Is still capable of being ripped from you, whether it is further used or not is about intent.

[Oudeis he/him]

Not sure what you mean here, but remember that you lose the ability if you lose the spike, yet if you then regain the same spike, you get the power back, and also remember that the Well, which would not suffer Vin when she wore the earring, had no problem with her once she removed it; same with the Mists. So, the fact remains that the "trait" in any given spike is modular, able to be removed and replaced. The question now becomes, while the spike is in you, is the trait tied strongly enough to your own spiritweb that spiking you in a theftpoint will rip the entire trait, not just out of your spiritweb, but out of the original spike itself.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Not sure what you mean here, but remember that you lose the ability if you lose the spike, yet if you then regain the same spike, you get the power back, and also remember that the Well, which would not suffer Vin when she wore the earring, had no problem with her once she removed it; same with the Mists. So, the fact remains that the "trait" in any given spike is modular, able to be removed and replaced. The question now becomes, while the spike is in you, is the trait tied strongly enough to your own spiritweb that spiking you in a theftpoint will rip the entire trait, not just out of your spiritweb, but out of the original spike itself.

Ripping something out via Hemalurgy is usually lethal, so if a spiked attribute would fuse enough with the wielder´s spirit web to be re-spikable then removing the spike should at the very least be harmful, if not lethal, but this does not seem to be the case from the not permanently worn spikes we know about. (See Wax´s earring)

[Curiosity he/him]

I don't think that you would be able to steal the ability from the person because it is stored in the spike, not in the person's own SpiritWeb, per se. The spike is closer to an "extension pack", removable and reusable to an extent (except when the number of spikes is holding up the person's SpiritWeb, see Inquisitors), not fused to the SpiritWeb. However, if you Allomantically burned the spike, you could fuse that bit to your own, possibly making it permanent.* 

[Oudeis he/him]

Ripping something out via Hemalurgy is usually lethal, so if a spiked attribute would fuse enough with the wielder´s spirit web to be re-spikable then removing the spike should at the very least be harmful, if not lethal, but this does not seem to be the case from the not permanently worn spikes we know about. (See Wax´s earring)

 

Eeeeeh.... I'm afraid this doesn't scan, for a few reasons. I mean, it's totally viable as a hypothesis, it's completely possible that this is the case. But you make a few connections that are rather tenuous.

 

First, you're saying that since a Spike is unlike a trait in this one way, it has to be unlike the trait in all ways. I disagree. A spike-trait is different from a normal-trait, in that you can lose the ability by losing the spike. However, it's also alike the normal trait in a lot of ways. A man with a spike for allomantic steel will still burn the metal just like a natural Coinshot, he Pushes on the same metals, he sees the same steellines. So, hemalurgic traits are similar to natural traits in some ways, and different in others. We don't know which of these categories "theft of the trait kills you" would fall into.

 

Second, the whole "die when you lost a trait" thing is less clear-cut than you're making it out to be. We know it's (almost) always been fatal, but it also involves someone stabbing you with metal, so there's that. Basically, what little we know/suspect is that hemalurgic theft deals significant physical and spiritual trauma. Either on its own is enough to kill you, typically. We know that it's possible to be a "donor" in such a manner that you lose the trait, but don't die from either trauma. We know very little about the process or what it might entail.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Eeeeeh.... I'm afraid this doesn't scan, for a few reasons. I mean, it's totally viable as a hypothesis, it's completely possible that this is the case. But you make a few connections that are rather tenuous.

 

First, you're saying that since a Spike is unlike a trait in this one way, it has to be unlike the trait in all ways. I disagree. A spike-trait is different from a normal-trait, in that you can lose the ability by losing the spike. However, it's also alike the normal trait in a lot of ways. A man with a spike for allomantic steel will still burn the metal just like a natural Coinshot, he Pushes on the same metals, he sees the same steellines. So, hemalurgic traits are similar to natural traits in some ways, and different in others. We don't know which of these categories "theft of the trait kills you" would fall into.

 

Second, the whole "die when you lost a trait" thing is less clear-cut than you're making it out to be. We know it's (almost) always been fatal, but it also involves someone stabbing you with metal, so there's that. Basically, what little we know/suspect is that hemalurgic theft deals significant physical and spiritual trauma. Either on its own is enough to kill you, typically. We know that it's possible to be a "donor" in such a manner that you lose the trait, but don't die from either trauma. We know very little about the process or what it might entail.

There are two options I see.

1) The attribute stays seperate in the spike and acts as a "extension pack" as Curiosity put it. In this case both it makes sense that removing the spike wouldn´t be harmful, because the core of the person´s spirit web stays untouched, and that it can´t be re-spiked, given that the spike is only connected to one bind point and not the others.

2) The attribute "flows" into the person as Shardcellist put it and attaches itself enough with the spirit web to be spiked out. In this case it should also be interwoven enough to alter your remaining spirit web and act like it in other aspects as well, which means harmful removal only, not necessarily lethal but I never claimed that it has to be.

 

This is, as far as I´m concerned, still the same trait, namely connection to the spirit web. Saying that it fuses enough with your soul to spread to other bind points but not enough to, well for lack of a better term, leave a hole upon removal sound very off to me. Kind of like saying that a transplanted lung could be removed without harm or a magically grown fifth limb that is normal in all other ways but wouldn´t bleed after being cut off. (I know, I know physical body parts are not the same as your soul but this is about principle and I like to use comparisons.)

 

Granted, we´re dealing with magic so it could be the case and everything I just said is plain wrong, however I fail to see how something that effectively melts into your spirit web can just be janked out when every other part of the web hurts upon janking. Either it becomes part of your own web or it doesn´t, is what I would think.

 

Edit: I admid that the majority of my argument boils down to "it feels wrong" more than factual knowledge but that´s how I think about it and we don´t exactly have facts on this.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Oudeis he/him]

Hrm... a random, tangential thought. I still think it's unlikely that a Spiked trait can be Spiked out of someone... however, I'm willing to stipulate that I think a Godmetal spike could break this rule.

 

None of what I say is based on anything other than "gut-feeling".