Hemalurgic compounding

[killersquirrel59]

Have we ever asked the question about the potential of compounding Hemalurgy? I wonder what would happen if a Hemalurgist used a charged metalmind as a spike?

 

Even more potential, I believe we have a WoB somewhere saying that for Allomancy metal does not necessarily need to be swallowed, just must be inside. What would happen if a spiked Allomancer tried to burn their spike?

 

If possible, this could create the potential for a triple compounder, right? Take a Feruchemist, have him store speed in a steel spike, spike someone else with that charged metalmind spike, then use that double charged spike to grant that feruchemist Allomantic steel, then have him burn the already double charged Steel spike for Allomantic steel.

Edited October 9, 2014 by killersquirrel59

[Voidus]

I think we have WoB that Inquisitors can use their spikes as metalminds, and that if they tried burning them it would be incredibly painful for them and something else, either kill them or knock them out.
I'll chase up the quotes.

[killersquirrel59]

I remember that quote, but I took that as specific to Inquisitors who have so many spikes that they would now die without them given their placements, the death caused by the loss of the spike, not necessarily by burning it.

[Oudeis]

Not sure how your example would be "triple compounding"... this person would have both allomantic and feruchemical steel, like a normal compounder. The hemalurgy wouldn't add anything to the equation. In fact, due to hemalurgic decay, this person would be a weaker coinshot than a natural compounder. Also, there's no advantage to using the spike as a metalmind, and as this person burns it, spike and the hemalurgy it grants would go away.

 

Gaining a spike that grants allomantic steel, then storing in a separate metalmind and compounding that, would be a slightly better method of compounding than the one you suggest, and would still be inferior to someone who was simply a natural-born compounder of Steel. The only advantage is, you don't have to be lucky enough to be born with the power, you just have to be lucky enough to be born with one of them and kill someone with the other, or have no luck at all and have neither power, then kill two people.

[Voidus]

I remember that quote, but I took that as specific to Inquisitors who have so many spikes that they would now die without them given their placements, the death caused by the loss of the spike, not necessarily by burning it.

Only the linchpin spike is vital for their survival, the others can be removed I believe.

[Oudeis]

Only the linchpin spike is vital for their survival, the others can be removed I believe.

 

We know that removing both eyespikes kills them, too. It seems the whole system is, spiritually speaking, unstable, and the linchpin provides stability. Remove the linchpin and everything falls to pieces instantly. With the linchpin in, removing enough other spikes will work, too.

 

It seems to be that an Inquisitor's spiritweb is simply a mess. Once enough outside support is removed, the whole thing falls to pieces, and you die, just as surely as if the same thing happened to your physical body or your cognitive aspect.

 

Hrm. Interesting thought. Do Inquisitors lose their color when they are killed via linchpin removal, a la shardsevered limbs?

[killersquirrel59]

You get triple compounding by burning a metal for allomantic power that is already imbued with both a Feruchemical and Hemalurgic charge. 

[Edgedancer]

You get triple compounding by burning a metal for allomantic power that is already imbued with both a Feruchemical and Hemalurgic charge. 

The charge inside the metal has nothing to to with the strenght of Compounding. The power is still the same as with normal Allomancy, just through a different filter, which is where the charge comes in. Given that Hemalurgy doesn´t save Investure as "energy" like Feruchemy does but by transfering the spirit web, I would doubt the allomantic Investure would copy it, but even if it does you should only be able to compound one charge.

[Moogle]

To burn a Hemalurgic spike, it would have had to come from you. It's like burning metalminds. WoB:

Czanos
Would anything interesting happen if an Allomancer Burned a Hemalurgic spike, or a Feruchemist Tapped one?

Brandon Sanderson
Er, well, it’s possible. But you’d have to be burning a Hemalurgic spike that killed you and took your power... Just like you can’t gain anything by burning a metalmind unless you infused it yourself.
(source)

 
As to what would actually happen:

Maru Nui ()
What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson ()
Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

(source)

 
He's also said that an Inquisitor burning their spikes would result in horrific pain and knock them out, but I can't find that WoB.
 
So... it's a bit inconsistent. Also, from the same interview as the second WoB there:

Maru Nui ()
Can you both Feruchemically charge and Hemalurgically invest in the same piece of metal?

Brandon Sanderson ()

Yes.

Maru Nui
What would happen if you burned the Feruchemically charged and Hemalurgically invested metal?

Brandon Sanderson
RAFO.

(source)

Edited October 9, 2014 by Moogle

[18th Shard]

If you would look at my theory the Mechanics of Compounding, I loom at the possible benefits and disadvantages of this. Shameless plug for theory, I know, but it seemed relevant. : )

[killersquirrel59]

Thank you for quotes.

[Stormwalker]

To burn a Hemalurgic spike, it would have had to come from you. It's like burning metalminds. WoB:

 

As to what would actually happen:

 

He's also said that an Inquisitor burning their spikes would result in horrific pain and knock them out, but I can't find that WoB.

 

So... it's a bit inconsistent. Also, from the same interview as the second WoB there:

 

This makes it harder, but I think the situation is still doable. Suppose you are a double gold twinborn. You first store some health in a gold spike as well as some gold shavings. You then swallow the shavings, and spike your gold feruchemy out of yourself with your gold spike, while burning your health-imbued gold shavings in order to stay alive. You then re-spike yourself with the gold spike (which now contains your own gold feruchemical ability) in the appropriate place, and then burn it. The splicing of spiritual DNA (which may also be the source of the pain, might not matter then) as it is your own sDNA to begin with (not to mention the restorative effects of the health you are burning).

 

Personally, I don't see how this would be triple compounding, however, I think it would work as double: You get extra health for burning a metalmind, and you get extra feruchemical ability for burning your charged spike. You could then theoretically do this as many times as you wanted to to get unlimited gold feruchemy power.

 

However, I don't know if it would actually be useful. I think that increased feruchemical power only allows you to draw from your metalminds faster (which is why most inquisitors couldn't draw from their gold-minds very fast). But clearly Miles was already at the point where he could draw as quickly as he needed to, so after a point, there doesn't seem much reason to be better at it. It would be nice if you could do this with your allomantic powers, but I think you'd need to be more than a twinborn to be able to do it (as you'd need at least Feruchemical gold in order to survive the spiking).

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Yes you would need to be a twinborn.

And if you had some one else Feruchemical gold that they survived/restored spiking out and can compound infinite charges that you can use as its the same feruchemy source sounds a very useful way to make some horrible monsters. That said I Think the process would be a little more involved to copy Feruchemical gold. Things to consider are:

1) Can they still use the Feruchemical gold charges they made in any way prior to spiking out the trait?

2) Will Hemalurgy Spike out traits your getting from a spike and not your natural soul web?

3)Could some one else burn your Hemalurgical spike if they had Your allomantic power?

 

They may need something like another Feruchemical gold spike with charges of Feruchemical gold from another Feruchemist or something else equally convoluted to make it work. That said once you had the first 3 Spikes made I see no reason you would have an issue making and passing this power on infinitely and compounding metal minds for others to use to pass traits back.

 

All of that said this sounds both extremely evil and Highly world breaking, there is no way Harmony would not become involved. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar

[the winter system]

I hope we find out what happens in the sequel to the AoL. 

[killersquirrel59]

I was not aware of the WoB that said you could only burn energy from a spike that is yours as if it is a metal mind. This makes very little sense with Hemalurgy as the entire point of Hemalurgy is to transfer power from one to another. It hints at more hidden misunderstandings of the magic in my mind.

[Moogle]

I was not aware of the WoB that said you could only burn energy from a spike that is yours as if it is a metal mind. This makes very little sense with Hemalurgy as the entire point of Hemalurgy is to transfer power from one to another. It hints at more hidden misunderstandings of the magic in my mind.

 

There's a transfer of power, sure, but it seems ultimately to be a matter of identity. You can only draw in a Full Lashing if it 'belongs' to you, you can only use a metalmind if it's yours, you can only command Breath to become yours if you originally put it in something... the bit of Investiture in a spike is still 'yours' even though it killed you, so it makes sense other people can't burn it. It's not theirs.

 

The power of Hemalurgy, then, is forcing something that doesn't belong to you to belong to you by stitching it onto your soul. And even then, it's not "theirs" - it still belongs to you. So they can't burn it.

[Windrunner]

There's a transfer of power, sure, but it seems ultimately to be a matter of identity. You can only draw in a Full Lashing if it 'belongs' to you, you can only use a metalmind if it's yours, you can only command Breath to become yours if you originally put it in something... the bit of Investiture in a spike is still 'yours' even though it killed you, so it makes sense other people can't burn it. It's not theirs.

 

The power of Hemalurgy, then, is forcing something that doesn't belong to you to belong to you by stitching it onto your soul. And even then, it's not "theirs" - it still belongs to you. So they can't burn it.

If that's really the case, and I'm not sure that it is due to the inconsistency you mentioned, could the same identity trick that allows you to access another Feruchemist's metalminds come into play here?

[Edgedancer]

If that's really the case, and I'm not sure that it is due to the inconsistency you mentioned, could the same identity trick that allows you to access another Feruchemist's metalminds come into play here?

On that accord, given that Aluminum can store identity shouldn´t it (or Atium at the very least) be able to steal it, allowing you to bypass the "Identity-lock"? Seems easier than spiking a Feruchemist currently storing Identity.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

On that accord, given that Aluminum can store identity shouldn´t it (or Atium at the very least) be able to steal it, allowing you to bypass the "Identity-lock"? Seems easier than spiking a Feruchemist currently storing Identity.

 

That's possible. But it begs several questions that we don't have answers to as Hemalurgy's exact effects are still not all out there. 

Aluminum by the way steals Allomantic Enhancement Metals.

 

Metals we don't know the powers they grab Are:

Chromium, Nicrosil, Electrum, Cadmium, Bendalloy, Alloys of Atium, and Lerasium.

Since Chromium and Nicrosil are Spiritual/Enhancement metals stealing Identity may be within there powers but I would have to wonder if that would be alright for the person using those spikes.

 

Mood changes at the very least would be possible and its more likely that if the spike was powerful enough it would over power the host and replace their personality with its own. With a copper spike for the Doners memories...... *Shiver*

[Oudeis]

How would hemalurgic decay affect a stored Identity?

[Edgedancer]

How would hemalurgic decay affect a stored Identity?

Good question. We know next to nothing about the element of Identity but depending on how it works my two guesses would be it either weaken the "force" of the Identity, going from personality overwritting mindrape to a soft voice in the back of your head, or muddle details, such as likes and dislikes.

[Oudeis]

Whichever one makes for a crazier host; that's the one I want to believe is real.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Well as Hemalurgy only rips of and store's pieces of a spirit web maybe it would only store the Strongest part of some ones Identity? This kind of thing really needs a WoB to get any real concrete Ideas.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar