So my friend and I had a brain child together. Anyone willing to help me raise and shape it?

[lwd24era he/him]

Basically he helped me come up with a basis for a magic system. But in all honesty it's just a baby compared to what it could be. So I'm searching for fellow readers/writers/Brandon fans to help me pull it out of its nebulous form and be a magic system I can be proud of. Also if I succeed and it makes it into a published book I will of course credit those who have helped me(:

So here goes.

Edited October 8, 2014 by lwd24era

[Truthwatcher Ferring]

I'll help. You can see if you like the way I think here.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I can help with stress-testing it a bit, if you'd like. If we're doing credentials...

[lwd24era he/him]

Thanks! Basically my system revolves around the idea of Power gained through Loss.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Would you care to expand a bit?

[lwd24era he/him]

Hmm well essentially people can only gain magical powers by sacrificing something. The more something means to the person the more Power it generates. Example: a person killing a loved one in order to stop a plague, or a man cutting off a limb to tip the tide of a battle for his nations side. Sorry I'm really bad at explaining. I could probably answer specific questions though.

[Kurkistan he/him]

That's a fine starting point.

 

Okay, questions then:

-How do they lose the thing? Do you just say "abracadabra" and then poof your arm is gone and the army is dead? Or do you chop it off with a hacksaw first? Do the (physical) wounds heal over or will magic-users be contending with shock and bloodloss?

 

-Who can use this? Can anyone and everyone use the magic if they do the sacrifices, or is it a select few?

 

-Do the sacrifices need to be of the non-recoverable kind? Could I shave that beard I love for a cup of coffee one day and then do it again a month later? Could I give up use of my hand for a day and then get back the use at the end of the period?

 

-Do the sacrifices need to be "visceral", for lack of a better word? Could you make the "sacrifice" of foregoing a day with a loved one with no ill-effects to follow?

--On that note, just how abstract can we get? Could I sacrifice my ability to appreciate kittens or something?

--Could I sacrifice something a bit less meaty, say my ability to see green or something?

 

--

Tell me if/when you want me to stop grilling you.

[Talanic he/him]

Defenses.  Does one sacrifice negate another?  Sure, the enemy has a dozen heroes (or very poor people whose families stand to benefit) ready to sacrifice themselves to kill my army (or my general).  Do I need to have TWO dozen heroes ready to sacrifice themselves?  

 

I see mages in this system only dueling once in their lives.  After all, they're duelling for their own lives; the one who lives is the one who's willing to survive with that much less of their own life left, and is therefore probably blind, deaf, and impotent, with no dress sense or ability to carry a tune; the one who lost decided that they had something left they'd rather die than lose.  Alternatively, if monetary sacrifices count, the winner was the one who was rich.

 

We probably need more detail to be able to helpfully flesh things out.  Are sacrifices made in advance, or must they be made at the moment that you want to alter reality?  Is mass conserved, or can you make things go 'poof' either as a trigger for a spell or as the result of a spell?  Is this magic only for grand gestures, or is it something that can theoretically be used day-to-day?  Can foregoing an action be a sacrifice, e.g. a vow of celibacy?  If so, would the celibate person gain anything if they actually had no opportunity to break said vow, being stranded alone on a deserted island, for example?

[lwd24era he/him]

That's a fine starting point.

 

Okay, questions then:

-How do they lose the thing? Do you just say "abracadabra" and then poof your arm is gone and the army is dead? Or do you chop it off with a hacksaw first? Do the (physical) wounds heal over or will magic-users be contending with shock and bloodloss?

 

-Who can use this? Can anyone and everyone use the magic if they do the sacrifices, or is it a select few?

 

-Do the sacrifices need to be of the non-recoverable kind? Could I shave that beard I love for a cup of coffee one day and then do it again a month later? Could I give up use of my hand for a day and then get back the use at the end of the period?

 

-Do the sacrifices need to be "visceral", for lack of a better word? Could you make the "sacrifice" of foregoing a day with a loved one with no ill-effects to follow?

--On that note, just how abstract can we get? Could I sacrifice my ability to appreciate kittens or something?

--Could I sacrifice something a bit less meaty, say my ability to see green or something?

 

--

Tell me if/when you want me to stop grilling you.

 

 

Defenses.  Does one sacrifice negate another?  Sure, the enemy has a dozen heroes (or very poor people whose families stand to benefit) ready to sacrifice themselves to kill my army (or my general).  Do I need to have TWO dozen heroes ready to sacrifice themselves?  

 

I see mages in this system only dueling once in their lives.  After all, they're duelling for their own lives; the one who lives is the one who's willing to survive with that much less of their own life left, and is therefore probably blind, deaf, and impotent, with no dress sense or ability to carry a tune; the one who lost decided that they had something left they'd rather die than lose.  Alternatively, if monetary sacrifices count, the winner was the one who was rich.

 

We probably need more detail to be able to helpfully flesh things out.  Are sacrifices made in advance, or must they be made at the moment that you want to alter reality?  Is mass conserved, or can you make things go 'poof' either as a trigger for a spell or as the result of a spell?  Is this magic only for grand gestures, or is it something that can theoretically be used day-to-day?  Can foregoing an action be a sacrifice, e.g. a vow of celibacy?  If so, would the celibate person gain anything if they actually had no opportunity to break said vow, being stranded alone on a deserted island, for example?

First quote:

You have to cause the loss yourself. No magical healing. Everyone has the potential, just very few know about it. Well it generally has to be something that's genuinely hard for you to give up and does tend to be irreversible. If you give up something, it's gone. It has to be a truly jarring sacrifice. You can give up abstract things like your love for someone, or your empathy(although as of yet I'm unsure as of how you would go about sacrificing those sort of things). Feel free to keep piling on the questions. 

 

Second quote: Like I said very few people know about the magic, so it being used in armies as a tactic to winning wars regularly isn't really viable. The sacrifice needs to be made when you want to alter reality. Mass is conserved. No "poofing" happens. Yes to grand gestures, nay on everyday. In order to sacrifice your celibacy would probably require self-castration or something similar. As for your last question: the power you obtain is equal to the amount of loss you feel. So no, on a desert island it probably wouldn't be worth much. 

 

Also a note: The magic system in my world is fickle. Imagine genie wishes in some settings and how they can backfire. Like that. 

[Kurkistan he/him]

So it seems that you do actually lose in a magical way, then: no hacksaw required.

 

Okay, more stuff:

 

-How precise are the expected prices/effects? Since you say "genie" I'm guessing not very, but let's narrow it down.

--Do I know when I wish for a cup of coffee that that's going to cost me a pinkie, and that if it's the pinkie on my off-hand the coffee will have slightly too much sugar? Or is it like "well there goes the pinkie, hope that coffee is good"?

---On that note, which comes first, the cost or the effect? Do I say "I'm willing to give up X, what can I get for it?" Or do I say "What do I need to spend to get Y" or do I say "I want Y" and then find out the consequences later?

 

-How sincere/dearly-held need the sacrifice/desire be? Tal up above mentioned, third-party sacrificing could be a thing: grab a guy, tell him that if he doesn't sacrifice an arm and a leg to accomplish Y that his family will die and that if he does they'll be taken care of. Is that a thing that can/should happen?

 

-Could we get a bit more fine-grained of a scale on what it costs to accomplish Y? How much will I have to sacrifice to levitate a rock? A boulder? A car? etc.

--On that note, the degree of fickleness would be nice to know. As a classic genie example, if I ask for wealth will the magic drop off some untraceable money at my feet, kill my parents for the inheritance, or drown me in molten gold? How much variance can I expect in the magic actually accomplishing what I want it to, in regards to what it does and the unintended consequences?

 

-Does how much you want the thing to happen at all effect how much it costs to do so? So levitating a rock to impress a girl versus levitating that same rock somehow saving a baby or something: do both cost the same?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Talanic he/him]

Hmm.  If these sacrifices are being made TO something intelligent, do the people know the nature of this being?  Is there more than one, and that's how disputes would be decided?  If you offer an insufficient sacrifice does it take what you offer, then say no, or does it refuse to take anything until you pile on enough?

[Edgedancer he/him]

I think it would be good for it´s education if... wait it´s not that kind of child.

 

-How apparent is the use of magic? In the case of let´s say winning a war, would the soldiers on my side simply become "better" or would fire rain down from the sky and destroy my enemies?

-On that note is it the magic itself that isn´t well know or the ritual to activate it?

-Does it matter how willingly the sacrifice is? For example, whether I have come to terms with killing my wife for the greater good or if someone holds a gun to my head. I would certainly feel worse about the later but the person lost is still the same.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Truthwatcher Ferring]

I personally like the idea of the magic being more subtle. So you wouldn't wish for a new car and have one suddenly appear in your driveway, you'd discover you won the car in a lottery or something like that. This supports the idea that you don't want most people to know about your magic.

 

If the magic comes from an intelligent being:

Does the entity or force that allows these exchanges actively try to twist your words against you like some genies do?

Does the force perfer specific people or certain kinds of people?

Does it enjoy granting magically gifts or does it find the task bothersome?

If it finds the task bothersome, would it start asking for more in exchange for it's help after every wish?

 

How does someone make the exchange? Do they chant, say a spell, or just think about it?

[lwd24era he/him]

Kurkistan:

-Sorry I must not have been clear: no magical healing. No “poofing”. So yes, you’d have to remove your arm yourself.

-As to precision, it varies.

-Maybe? It might end up like that.

-The cost isn’t really the focus. It’s the sense of loss the person feels. There isn’t any entity that oversees the sacrifice so it’s not a bartering system or anything.

-The thing to be sacrificed generally is dearly held. No you can’t force someone to do it. Hardly anyone knows about it.

-Fine grained?? People don’t levitate boulders or rocks with this magic system.

-As for the amount of fickleness, the “gift” received for the sacrifice is generally soured by something. ex: Loss-arm, Desired effect-wealth, Effect-you find a wallet with a ton of money in it on the street.

-Like I said before, there is no being making judgments on how you use the power. That said, can you think of a reason why intent should matter?

 

Talanic:

No there is no being.

 

Edgedancer:

-The magic is subtle. So one side would simply pull through and prevail. No fire raining down.

-The first, there really isn’t a ritual.

-Willingness is needed for the Loss to translate into Power. So no someone couldn’t force you.

 

Truthwatcher Ferring:

-The magic does not come from an intelligent being, unless you count the person making the sacrifice.

In the world the ancients knew of the magic, but over the centuries knowledge of it was hidden or destroyed by the new church/religion that was founded. So the few who know of it either were informed by a family member, discovered an ancient text, or gleaned it from a practitioner of the Old traditions.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Re: "poofing":

 

Ah, my mistake. I thought when you confirmed that non-physical things could be sacrificed that there would be some degree of poofing. Not necessarily magical healing, but more like "oh look my arm is gone and now there's lots of blood" as opposed to needing the hacksaw. It does seem somewhat inconsistent, though, if you can sacrifice your empathy without the need for brain surgery but still need elbow grease to remove a limb.

 

Re: "Forcing"

 

There's forcing and then there's forcing and then there's forcing. Is torturing someone into compliance not going to work? Is holding a gun to a guy's head forcing him? What about threatening his family? His livelihood? His cat?

 

Re: Grainage

 

I don't necessarily mean those as literal examples (though it's good to know those aren't the kind of things the magic system does) but more as a way to gauge the sacrifice:power ratio.  What the upper and lower limits are and how they scale.

 

Re: Intent

 

Oh you poor thing... *shakes head in pitying fashion*

 

You see, intent matters because a magical effect which is small in and of itself can have very large consequences in the right situation. If you say "well, boiling a pot's worth of water isn't to big a deal, so let's say that's a pinkie" then I will say "GREAT! Now I'd like to boil about a mL worth of water in each one of the brains of the 4,000 or so soldiers standing over there. That's about a pot, right?!"

 

On a less broken scale, these things can still matter quite a lot in small cases. Let's say you want to make someone turn left instead of right at a crossroad. That doesn't seem too big a deal, so far as scope of effect. If it's a hated in-law who you don't want to talk to, then it's probably not worth whatever sacrifice. If it's the enemy general at the head of an army, and to the left is where your ambush is set up, it might matter a bit more.

 

--

 

Now you have said this is a bit more subtle than the water-boiling would seem to be, but I think the crossroads scenario, at the very least, is a question worth asking.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Ashiok]

Ok. So are the effects themselves Physical or emotional and/or are they immediate, if I want money, will something instantly happen? 

[Talanic he/him]

Hmm.  I have a name to suggest for a user of this magic:

 

Bittermage.

 

I think I see what you're trying to drive at.  This is magic that only works when the caster feels regret over the cost - only if you complete your spell and feel as if you overpayed.  E.g. a pinky would be overpayment for boiling a pot of water, so it would work - unless a pot of boiling water was vital for saving your beloved's life.  Then the spell might fail because the stakes are so high that you might feel that the pinky was worth it.

 

So if the caster - a monarch - tries to sacrifice a random schlub to kill an enemy army, it would probably fail, but if he sacrificed his only heir, it MIGHT work.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Talanic

[lwd24era he/him]

Talanic you hit the nailspren on the head with your second paragraph.