Could Szeth be Spiked?

[b4dave]

I have been wondering, since reading that the art of Hemalurgy has drastic ramifications through out the Cosmere, if we haven't seen it in more places than Mistborn.

If Hemalurgy takes a portion of someones spirit web and puts in into anothers body, but we don't know much about it beyond that. We don't know 100% percent for sure that what passes for Hemalurgy in Mistborn is the same through out the cosmere. It seems like a couple of Shards have similar hemalurgic effects, if not by the same means.

Elantris - the dakhor(not sure if thats right, dont have my book with me)- they forcibly draw aons onto the bones of those who will join their number. We arent sure of the process, and it may be a stretch, but it seems somewhat hemalurgic to me.

Warbreaker - Endowment - the giving of Breath. A part of the persons spiritweb is transfered to another, leaving them a Drab.

Now, what if the process of transfering one's spiritweb is also different on Roshar? What if Szeth has gained his windrunner powers through a hemalurgic process, having has someones elses spiritual DNA transfered to him.

Is it completely far fetched? Is it crazy?

[Commander Spoonface]

I wouldn't say crazy, though far fetched... maybe. If you mean he actually has a hemalurgic spike of metal placed in him, I find that very unlikely. However, there are some implications that his windrunner abilities might be related to possessing his shardblade. It's possible that particular blade has a similar property to spikes in of that it grants a person (stolen) powers.

Although, I remember BS saying that who gets magic on Roshar is related to actions people take, not genetics. In that case, it seems a little less likely that powers could be stolen from someone.

[Windrunner]

Dakhor is Dominion's magic, and as far as we know unrelated to Hemalurgy. Hrathen never thinks about any spikes making him a Dakhor monk, and he was running around shirtless so Sarene would have noticed any pieces of metal sticking out of him.

I would believe Szeth had been spiked if it had happened on Scadrial. We know that Ruin's direct intervention was necessary for Spook and others to get spiked, which couldn't have happened for Szeth. It would take very specialized knowledge to know where to place the spike to steal Surgebinding. It also might require the alloy of a God Metal to steal from other magic systems. (There's no room in the base Hemalurgic table to steal all the magic systems we know to exist) It's an original idea and I wouldn't say never, but I think it's extremely unlikely that Szeth has a Hemalurgic spike. I think it would be too overt for Brandon's hinting about the cosmere, everyone would say, "He already did that". It's a good idea though, and one of the few that could explain how Szeth got his powers.

[lyssie95]

So, I have always been interested in the way magic systems interact with each other. (in fact at the AoL Houston signing, the question I asked was if different magic systems worked on different worlds. THat was before I discovered this place, though )

Earlier I was thinking about Hemalurgy (what I feel is one of the most interesting ones) and thought about how FRIGGIN NIFTY it would be if Hemalurgy could be used to steal powers from off worlders. In the books it talks a lot about the tons of different penetration points, and I'd say it is reasonable that some of those puncture sets could be used to, say, steal Windrunner abilities.

the possible arguments (at least the ones that pop right into my head):

Objection 1-Magic systems on scadrial proven to be compatible with hemalurgy (Feruchemy/Allomancy) are *Genetic* magic systems.

Refutation 1-Hemalurgy, as is understood by Alyssa(me), steals a bit of the soul. It doesn't rely on Genetics, so why couldn't it take windrunning-y-stuff?

meh. Still a work in progress. I'll add on to this as I get more random/illogical ideas.

What do y'all think?

Soo... still relatively new on the forumms, so if there has already been a discussion on this, just point me in the right direction. Did a quick search and didn't see anything, but *shrug*

Edited April 3, 2012 by lyssie95

[master]

Although, I remember BS saying that who gets magic on Roshar is related to actions people take, not genetics. In that case, it seems a little less likely that powers could be stolen from someone.

Isnt that becuase actions attract spren. and if the spren [say an honour spren like syl] was bound similar to how fabrials are made [if i remeber correctly spren stuffed into the gems that power the fabrials] it may be possible to forcibly create a bond allowing the magic. it might also be that the soulcasters ardents uses have the symbolheads trapped in them.

I guess that it could be similar to hemelurgy in that actions draw spren in. so to steal a spren you have to take it from someone who has already attracted them.

[Zas678]

I know that there was some discussion on this, based off the Ars Arcanum of the Alloy of Law, but I don't know if it had its own thread or not.

But otherwise, I think that Hemalurgy used properly could be used for almost all of the magic systems. The only one I'm unsure of is Surgebinding. That seems to take a Nahel Bond with an active spren, and I don't know if that bond can be forced.

Maybe that's what Voidbinding is- forcing the cognitively active spren (like Syl and the Truthspren) to bind to Voidbringers/Odium's followers, granting them evil magical powers. Which then leads to an interesting moral dilemma when Navani finds out, because she's like "Am I a Voidbringer? I've been trapping spren!" which Dalinar would negate saying "No, my sweet [Roshar vegetable]. Those spren are dumb, besides you didn't know any of them help us." Then Dalinar would try to get Kaladin to join in helping cheer her up, but Kaladin would be ticked, because he'd have Syl gone (thus how they found out how Voidbringing works), and frustrated that Navani's been doing a similar thing for years! Conflict and Worldbuilding!

Ummm, back on topic....

Besides Surgebinding, I think Hemalurgy could work in a number of peculiar ways. Since ONLY Nalthians are able to give up their Breaths, I'd imagine that is something in their Spiritual DNA that could be stolen from a spike. Elantrians the same; you have to be of Aonic descendant to become Elantrian, so that is something that is in the Spiritual DNA as well that could be stolen. Same (assumably) with ClayShan and Dahkor.

EDIT- I'm merging this thread into the other Hemalurgy thread that popped up because of Hoid's Timeliness rule.

[Windrunner]

This has been discussed a tad before right about when Alloy of Law came out, we were discussing the essay in the back about how Hemalurgy is of great usefulness cosmere-wise. As I understand it Hemalurgy will steal part of your spiritual aspect. What Allomancy and Feruchemy have is spiritual DNA (or sDNA as we will sometimes refer to it). It seems that some spiritual traits, like what Metallic Arts you have access to, are hardwired into your Spiritweb and will be passed down like regular genetics. We don't know why this is, although it is possible that the parent's spiritual aspects give rise to their children's spiritual aspects, so they end up being similar. I think Surgebinding works kind of similar to Hemalurgy. The spren grafts onto your Spiritweb in a certain location, just like giving someone a spike in a certain place. (This is all speculation)

There is a problem though. It may be that Hemalurgy will only work on people from Scadrial regularly. Also if you look at how many things regular Hemalurgy can steal, there's no way there are enough slots left in the base 16 to steal all the magic systems we know of. The best solution I've seen is that atium alloys will allow you to steal from other magic systems. This could potentially override any problems that might occur because other people have different Shards inside them. Also since we know that there are more then 16 but less then infinite atium alloys, there are plenty of possible metals that could steal any type of Investiture. Does this help?

(Sorry that I posted this twice, I'm a nut)

[b4dave]

I think I didn't focus on my point, what I was trying to say is that spiking is the way to steal powers via hemalurgy on Scadrial, but what if its not the same for every planet/shard? All we know for sure is that it steals part of the spirit web, but unless I'm missing something, I don't think Ive seen it anywhere that spiking is always necessary for Hemalurgy, just that its how its done on Scadrial. Since each of the Shards are different, maybe the way to steal their powers is as well.

Hemalurgy with Ruin - it ruins the body, aligning with his shard, uses metal as that it what fuels the metalic arts, and steals the metallic arts.

Hemalurgy with Endowment - the person giving up their breath is endowing it on someone else, there by giving up a portion of their spiritual DNA.

Hemalurgy with Dominion - I am not sure it would work here, I'll admit that, but it would probably have something to do with having Dominion over your body and allowing your sDNA to be altered with Aons, as well as showing that Dominion has its hold on you.

Edited April 3, 2012 by b4dave

[b4dave]

Isnt that becuase actions attract spren. and if the spren [say an honour spren like syl] was bound similar to how fabrials are made [if i remeber correctly spren stuffed into the gems that power the fabrials] it may be possible to forcibly create a bond allowing the magic. it might also be that the soulcasters ardents uses have the symbolheads trapped in them.

I guess that it could be similar to hemelurgy in that actions draw spren in. so to steal a spren you have to take it from someone who has already attracted them.

maybe the Spren that was stolen is trapped in his Oathstone...which he seems pretty bound to obey who holds it

[Windrunner]

The problem is that Hemalurgy is Ruin's system, using spikes is just how it works. Short of Ruin leaving Scadrial and going to a different Shardworld I don't see the focus/physical aspect changing at all. Hemalurgy doesn't change from world to world just like Allomancers on different worlds would still need to burn metals, Awakeners would still need Commands/color, and Elantrians would still need Aons. The metal itself is important, it is actually charged with a part of a person's soul.

It would take something extremely drastic to alter a magic system that much, and from the way Brandon's talked about it, focuses/physical aspects don't change from world to world. We've asked him about Allomancers being able to use the metals of different planets and he said it would work fine. Unless something huge changes like Ruin leaving Scadrial, and perhaps not even then, Hemalurgy should always work the same way, regardless of the world. Magic doesn't depend what world you're on, it's all about what world the source of your power is on, whether it be a Splinter or a whole Shard. Does that make sense?

[master]

The problem is that Hemalurgy is Ruin's system, using spikes is just how it works. Short of Ruin leaving Scadrial and going to a different Shardworld I don't see the focus/physical aspect changing at all. Hemalurgy doesn't change from world to world just like Allomancers on different worlds would still need to burn metals, Awakeners would still need Commands/color, and Elantrians would still need Aons. The metal itself is important, it is actually charged with a part of a person's soul.

who said anything about using actual spikes. I think the op used it becuase it was the best example for understanding.

from the op these examples are given.

Elantris - the dakhor(not sure if thats right, dont have my book with me)- they forcibly draw aons onto the bones of those who will join their number. We arent sure of the process, and it may be a stretch, but it seems somewhat hemalurgic to me.

Warbreaker - Endowment - the giving of Breath. A part of the persons spiritweb is transfered to another, leaving them a Drab.

Now, what if the process of transfering one's spiritweb is also different on Roshar? What if Szeth has gained his windrunner powers through a hemalurgic process, having has someones elses spiritual DNA transfered to him.

Is it completely far fetched? Is it crazy?

maybe the Spren that was stolen is trapped in his Oathstone...which he seems pretty bound to obey who holds it

its possible that the oathstone gives his powers. but I think the control is more of an honour thing.

[Windrunner]

who said anything about using actual spikes. I think the op used it becuase it was the best example for understanding.

b4dave did say something about using actual spikes.

I think I didn't focus on my point, what I was trying to say is that spiking is the way to steal powers via hemalurgy on Scadrial, but what if its not the same for every planet/shard? All we know for sure is that it steals part of the spirit web, but unless I'm missing something, I don't think Ive seen it anywhere that spiking is always necessary for Hemalurgy, just that its how its done on Scadrial. Since each of the Shards are different, maybe the way to steal their powers is as well.

My explanation is about how Hemalurgy is Ruin's system, it doesn't change on each world because it is tied to him. All that matter's with magic is where the Shard is, not where you are. (Although if you're an Elantrian on another world you'll be weaker)

[master]

My explanation is about how Hemalurgy is Ruin's system, it doesn't change on each world because it is tied to him. All that matter's with magic is where the Shard is, not where you are. (Although if you're an Elantrian on another world you'll be weaker

what I read from his post it's the ability to transfer powers is whats important to the topic. using the name might be a mistake, but I've just assumed that its a term we all understand. He's talking about transfering powers, not ruins magic.

b4dave did say something about using actual spikes.

I think I didn't focus on my point, what I was trying to say is that spiking is the way to steal powers via hemalurgy on Scadrial, but what if its not the same for every planet/shard? All we know for sure is that it steals part of the spirit web, but unless I'm missing something, I don't think Ive seen it anywhere that spiking is always necessary for Hemalurgy, just that its how its done on Scadrial. Since each of the Shards are different, maybe the way to steal their powers is as well.

My explanation is about how Hemalurgy is Ruin's system, it doesn't change on each world because it is tied to him. All that matter's with magic is where the Shard is, not where you are. (Although if you're an Elantrian on another world you'll be weaker)

nope, he's talking about not using spikes in any place besides Scadrial. while his understanding of terms and concepts might be slightly wrong, he's talking about stealing magic or other traits from some people and giving them to someone else. not the actual system seen in mistborn.

Edited April 3, 2012 by master

[Windrunner]

Well the only way to forcibly transfer powers is with Ruin's magic. Not every planet has some inherent transfer magic. Scadrial has one because Ruin is powering it, it's his only magic system. The reason Awakening has some transfer of power is because it follows Endowment's intent of giving. Dakhor is... I don't know we haven't seen enough, sometimes people are killed and sometimes not. If you think about it killing is a pretty ultimate type of Domination, but not the only type. We know that getting powers does require the death of people though, but it's difficult to speculate on something under-explained. Transfer of power works, but if you're looking for a stealing type magic, Hemalurgy is your only option.

I still don't think Szeth has stolen his powers from anyone. One idea, Nohadon mentions Surgebinders that aren't Knights Radiant, could Szeth be one of these?

[Brassmind]

Thoughts:

• I think somewhere it was said that Preservation and Ruin could fuel each other's magics, but it would be less efficient. If this expands, Hemalurgy could, conceivably, work on other worlds with other Shards, just not quite as well as on Scadrial.

• However (unless a stab in the heart can do anything) it would probably take some study and/or trial and error to figure out where to put the spike to steal Surgebinding.

• Didn't Brandon say Szeth's way of Surgebinding was different from Kaladin's, even though the things they do with them look similar? I can't remember the source, unfortunately, but it seems to me that was said. So Szeth might not need to be spren-bonded to get the power, because he is unusual. I'd rather like to know if he had it before he got his Shardblade, personally. He's very skilled with the power, it seems. Reminds me of how Vasher is an extremely skilled Awakener, but we notice it less because we usually see it from his viewpoint, where that skill level is normal for him.

I'm still mulling over the ways in which Hemalurgy and giving Breath are alike/different in terms of changes in the giver/receiver of the power...

Edited April 4, 2012 by Brassmind

[Zas678]

Definition of Hema- blood.

There probably is a term in-universe for powers that come from other people, that require either stealing or giving something you have to someone else. We see this with Hemalurgy, Awakening, and possibly Dahkor (as you've said). But the term for this isn't Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is Ruin's magic that seems to involve using spikes to steal a piece of someone else's soul and sticking it to your own.

Here's how Brandon explains it:

BRANDON SANDERSON

I used as my model on [Hemalurgy] the concept of acupuncture and pressure points. Placing a Hemalurgic spike is a very delicate and specific art. Imagine there being a different overlay on a human body, like a new network of nerves, representing lines, points, and 'veins' of the soul's spiritual makeup.

What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.

Hemalurgy is a very brutal way of making changes like this, though, so it often has monstrous effects. (Like with the koloss.) And in most cases, it leaves a kind of 'hole' in the spirit's natural defenses, which is how Ruin was able to touch the souls of Hemalurgists directly.

[Windrunner]

Thanks for explaining that Zas, you did a better job then I showing that Hemalurgy is a magic system rather then a term used to describe powers accumulated from others. I was a little confused by the question, so that's why some of my replies may be a little strange.

Now that I know what you're saying b4dave, I agree absolutely that many magic systems are built by accumulating the powers of others. I wouldn't say each world specifically though, rather some magic systems. If it's not built into the mechanics of the system I'd say you'd be better off trying to use Hemalurgy.

But you're spot on about Awakening and Hemalurgy gathering power form others and I'd say you're right about Dakhor too. Dilaf says it took the deaths of 50 men to give him the ability to negate Aons.

[master]

I still don't think Szeth has stolen his powers from anyone. One idea, Nohadon mentions Surgebinders that aren't Knights Radiant, could Szeth be one of these?

I read that chapter yesterday. and if I remember correctly it was said that it was probably before the radients. its possible when they formed that all surgebinders joined. or daliner msy be wrong, but I doubt it. whatshisname under kaladin said that the radients were guided by a book that sounds a lot like the way of kings. and if there oaths came from the book theres a good chance it came before.

[Windrunner]

Nohadon wrote that book, the Way of Kings. The Radiants formed Orders around the tenets described there. I see only two possibilities. One is that in the past Surgebinding didn't require you to speak any Oaths, and somehow that was altered. There are problems with this though. Aaths are integral to Honor, and while altering a magic system is possible, it would be difficult and unlikely that humans would know how to do this, or be able to even if they did.

The other possibility is that the Oaths always existed, and no one knew how to say them. Everyone who was a Surgebinder was a weak one like Kaladin before he said the Second Oath. Nohadon was inspired somehow by the Almighty to write this book, describing the Oaths that would need to be spoken. This has problems as well. Kaladin instinctively knew the Second Oath, wouldn't others in the past have known as well?

[master]

I'm not sure what to think of the oaths but if I had to guess I'd tentatively say that since some of the oaths of each order are different each oath is based off of the spren the order is bound to. defending people is honourable, so saying the oath would booste kaladins connection to honour. not really anything divine, just a confirmation that he is loyal to the path of honour. I'm guessing if shallan is on the path to becoming a radient her oath would be based around truth [if you assume that the symbolheads are truth spren, which is my only guess for what they are].

getting back to the topic.

still don't think Szeth has stolen his powers from anyone. One idea, Nohadon mentions Surgebinders that aren't Knights Radiant, could Szeth be one of these?

I think even non-radient surgebinders would have spren.

chapter 59, an honour

vision of nohadon

Alakavish was a surgebinder. And yet the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are discernng as honour spren

that kind of prooves that even non radients would have spren. since as far as we know this is before the radiants. and since szeth doesnt have any spren he can't be a non-radiant surgebinder.

[Zas678]

There are many that believe that Nohadon, along with possibly organizing the Knight Radiants, may have set the Oaths Ideals of the Knight Radiants in place as well. But it is possible that the oaths existed before the Knight Radiants, but I don't think so. They're called the Oaths Ideals of the Knight Radiants for a reason.

Another interesting thing- Do you remember the piece of stone that decides who Szeth's master is? The name of it? An Oathshard. It was actually the name of The Way of Kings, back when Way of Kings was the series name when Brandon published Hero of Ages. It's possible that his spren is contained in there, much like normal spren are caught in fabrials.

Also, we don't know what happens when a Nahel Bond is broken, or what happens after a spren leaves their human. How long is the Nahel Bond in effect? Maybe Szeth had a spren, but it had to leave, because it couldn't bear to watch all that destroying and killing.

EDIT- My bad, my brain died. It is Ideals, and not Orders.

[master]

They're called the Oaths of the Knight Radiants for a reason.

odd, my copy calls them Ideals.

Another interesting thing- Do you remember the piece of stone that decides who Szeth's master is? The name of it? An Oathshard. It was actually the name of The Way of Kings, back when Way of Kings was the series name when Brandon published Hero of Ages. It's possible that his spren is contained in there, much like normal spren are caught in fabrials.

makes sense. I wonder if the historic name for the oathstone [or whatever its called] is a voidstone or voidshard.

Also, we don't know what happens when a Nahel Bond is broken, or what happens after a spren leaves their human. How long is the Nahel Bond in effect? Maybe Szeth had a spren, but it had to leave, because it couldn't bear to watch all that destroying and killing.

I guess it would be possible, but brandon saying he is something different makes it unlikely. at least in my opinion.