The Song of Ice and Fire

[Tamzin Ashevai she/her]

First and foremost, Arya Stark is indeed freaking awesome! She's been my favorite character within the literary series since I first began reading. (The same goes for the HBO series.) Alternately, with regard to the ways in which sexual relations are expressed within the novels, I believe that G.R.R.M. is lacking. Why? Because there really is very little explicit sexual engagement described throughout the series unless what little between Daenerys and Khal Drogo, Cersei and Jaime, Stannis and Melisandre, Robb and Jeyne Westerling and, eventually, between Cersei and whomever.

I think we all know that Sansa was terrified of her husband, Joffrey ... the King, with good reason. Without giving anything away, I've always been in agreement with her regarding her fear. So, maybe we should split this topic between the literary drama and the television series. I'm open to every option ... including continuing just as we've progressed upon this topic.

[Feloxia she/her]

I think he's great at description and most of his character building, but I really dislike how he uses his world. Or, really, how he doesn't use his world. He keeps hinting at the Others and other fantasy elements, but hardly ever actually does something with it. It seems like the world is there just to create fear or to show the characters travelling.

I don't know, I like certain elements and a few characters, but my interest in the series has dwindled a TON for multiple reasons.

[Vikter]

I loved the first three books, because they were all out when I picked up the first one. After it took so long for the fourth I had to reread them all over again to remind myself about the different plots going on.

On a similar note this video sums up most of my frustrations:

[LessThanGeorge]

It's my favorite series of all time. I'm shocked to see so many people don't like it, for whatever reasons. I personally think the proportions of the tale are as epic as it gets, and the characters are some of the most memorable. Not only that, A Song of Ice and Fire has a good chance of being recognized as the greatest literary work of our era; people in the 2100s will look back on culturally significant interestes of today and recognize GRRM as a prominent name.

[Jedidiah he/him]

- Eddard Stark goes to capital. leaving behind an enemy Theon in his family! Who later kills his sons!

- Eddard Stark hates the family of the King's wife,

- He knows this family is treacherous and doesn't know the meaning of honor,

- Stark is considered a great general, as he fought many battles alongside King. He should be smart, no?

- Yet Eddard Stark tells King's wife that he knows that her children are illegitimate.

- King's wife kills her husband, and all hell breaks lose.

Eddard's sense of virtue prevented him from treating Theon like a hostage since the Greyjoys and Starks shared an alliance in the North. He couldn't have known that the Greyjoys were plotting a hostile takeover of Rob's land (in later books), and he wouldn't blame Theon for "the sins of the father", I suppose. The Lannisters were always incredibly corrupt and seemingly opportunists, so it's no surprise to me that Eddard did not trust them--especially since Jaime was more or less a traitor to the crown (Aerys Targaryen). His sense of honor is somewhat Kantian in that it is rooted in duty, not a Divine or purely objective morality, so I would think that he would consider it to be his duty to confront the situation in Kings Landing despite the consequences. Remember, this is the guy (I'm theorizing here) who took in his sister's son (Jon Targaryen, heir to the throne) and feigned infidelity to Catelyn in order to accomplish his duty of defending his family and the crown. I don't think he's stupid, he just values duty above all other things--even when the dutiful option may seem foolish. That's how I see it, anyway.

[The Rooster he/him]

It's my favorite series of all time. I'm shocked to see so many people don't like it, for whatever reasons. I personally think the proportions of the tale are as epic as it gets, and the characters are some of the most memorable. Not only that, A Song of Ice and Fire has a good chance of being recognized as the greatest literary work of our era; people in the 2100s will look back on culturally significant interestes of today and recognize GRRM as a prominent name.

 

I think if you want to talk hardcore GRRM you're better off going to asoiaf.westeros.org .  The Brando Sando crowd here is good for deep Cosmere theory but it's pretty staggering how many shy away from adult content in these forums. 

[Moogle]

I think if you want to talk hardcore GRRM you're better off going to asoiaf.westeros.org .  The Brando Sando crowd here is good for deep Cosmere theory but it's pretty staggering how many shy away from adult content in these forums. 

 

Is it really that surprising? Brandon's books are much less... I don't want to use the word 'adult', but Brandon writes more like Robert Jordan. Things are less gritty, more innocent, the characters are much more black and white. For example, I think it's very hard to see many of the characters in Elantris as anything but black and white (except Hrathen). Add in a high percentage of Mormons, and I am not in the least bit surprised ASOIAF is disliked and viewed negatively. The people who are attracted to ASOIAF and those attracted to the Cosmere/WOT are going to be rather different on average.

 

It's interesting because after reading ASOIAF, I feel like the Stormlight Archive has barely any characters. I was reminded of this when a friend complained at me that TWOK had so many characters that they couldn't keep track of them, and I couldn't help but laugh. Not being an author, I don't think I can comment very knowledgeably, but I think GRRM's ASOIAF feels a lot more alive than Roshar, but there's also huge negatives in terms of the fact that each ASOIAF novel takes like five years to write. I think it's a hard tradeoff as a writer. That said, I'm never ever going to complain about only having to wait two years between SA novels.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Moogle

[Argent he/him]

Brandon makes a conscious decision to not write graphic content. It doesn't make his books any less adult (Moogle, I am not picking on you). He is also not as comfortable juggling dozens of viewpoints, and I not only respect that, I like it. What was Robert Jordan's character count, almost 3,000? Right now I can name maybe... 20. 30 tops. I find The Stormlight Archive format much more adequate - no more than 6 viewpoint characters, with interludes introducing more of the world. 

 

But I digress. I used to adore Martin's work, and I still intend to finish the series, assuming he actually finishes it (somebody somewhere pointed out that Brandon wrote 13 books in the time it took Martin to write ADoD). But I can no longer bring myself to give it as much praise as I once did. I originally started reading fantasy for the escapism, and Martin just doesn't provide that for me - not to mention that his plot moves so slowly. 

 

At this point I think I am defending Brandon more than critiquing Martin, so I'll stop. 

[Moogle]

Brandon makes a conscious decision to not write graphic content. It doesn't make his books any less adult (Moogle, I am not picking on you).

I think this is where I'm supposed to act indignant or something, right? <Insert indignant comment here>.

I get what you're talking about, and I tried to get across my feelings on it... but 'adult' is such a poor word to describe it. The issue is that Brandon doesn't shy away from writing graphic content:

She didn’t have a choice. Vin burned duralumin and flared her pewter. She flung her opponent’s hands aside and smashed her head upward into his face. The man’s head exploded as easily as the eyeball had earlier. Vin gasped for breath and pushed the headless corpse off her. Elend stumbled back, his suit and face sprayed red. Vin stumbled to her feet. Her vision swam as her pewter dissipated—but even through that, she could see an emotion on Elend’s face, stark as the blood on his brilliant white uniform.

Horror.

Then Vin saw the trickle of dark red liquid seeping around the side of Kelsier’s foot. It pooled slightly, then began to drip down the first step. Oh, Lord Ruler… Kelsier stumbled into the room. Vin followed, but she knew what she’d see. The corpse lay near the center of the chamber, flayed and dismembered, the head completely crushed. It was barely recognizable as human. The walls were sprayed red.

But whenever he mentions or alludes to sexual content, it's always something bad (Tresting raping a skaa woman, Straff being a sexual deviant and having over ten mistresses). Did you get the impression that Vin and Elend never had sex? I certainly did, and it surprised me to find out they did in an interview. I'm going to be interested in seeing if BS goes a little more explicit with Dalinar and Navani, or Adolin and his many girls, though I'd be willing to be money to the effect that we will never see anything more explicit than Mistborn.

I'm not trying to make a judgement call or say whether I prefer GRRM's sex scenes (which, honestly, I think are overdone in both the books and the show) or Brandon's sexless world, but I just want to get across what I feel is a major major difference between GRRM and BS and how 'innocent' Brandon's worlds feel by comparison. Where GRRM writes a character like Jaime Lannister, a guy who threw a kid out of a window, sympathetically, we have Brandon's Sarene, a woman without any flaw except apparently that she can't draw well. BS comes across more as a 'fantasy' or 'fairy tale' atmosphere in his novels, whereas GRRM actively tries to make things as gritty and horrible as possible, to the point where it's very easy for me to get depressed reading yet another description of a plague. Again, I don't want to try and say which I enjoy more (it is fair to say that I enjoy both). Criticizing BS is not what I want to do, particularly on a fan forum devoted to him, but it's hard not to come across that when comparing authors.

Hopefully this gets across my views a bit more clearly.

[Argent he/him]

Well, in regards to sex specifically, I side with Brandon because detailed sex scenes serve no storytelling purpose. First and foremost, Brandon tells stories - and from this point of view describing what Dalinar and Navani (or any other couple) do in at night is pointless. It was strongly implied that they slept together, but only because Dalinar's last vision took him mere minutes after that, as they were in bed. Though I agree that Vin and Elend came out a little too platonic - Siri and Susebron were handled better.

 

I guess my main point is that graphic content, be it sexual or blood (which in Martin's case are not mutually exclusive...), serves no purpose. So why bother? There are much better ways to depict a brutal world than describing a massacre or a torture scene. Just like there are much better ways of conveying that two people are (physically) attracted to each other than showing them rutting and grunting. 

[Ete'ni]

damnation you guys, i intended to skip that but. Well,

- In Elantris some princess actually mentions the wedding night and escort her broom to the ceremony

- Mistborn is kinda about politics, so... still, Ham has wife and kids, Kelsier too, Docson had a romantic relations including night dates. Vin and Elend spend nights naked in a tent during their trips. Even Sazed... actually, that was a poem. Breeze wakes and seed a sleeping face of Alrianna. And somehow Wax was born Ladrian, so go figure yourself.

- The Way of Kings... Sort of... there's this Dalinar/NAvani scene that is more appealing than any sex scene.

- The Alloy of Law... I kinda don't see any possibility for sex since the main character are either fighting, wounded, dying or in crowd. Though shirless Wayne is highly appreciated here. Wax's no bad either.

 

And yeah... I've read the Sonf of Ice and Fire and regretting having it in phisical form. And I don't know... I just feel that it's less more entertaining with each book. I don't mind crying over a character. Once I shed a tear over a little brave caravella.  And very single character turn out annoying at some point. About relationships... they're annoying, disturbing. Immature in adult sense.

 

I just find that I don't have any favourite moments any more in the whole series and it's pretty bad. I'm gonna read it for sure since I've already that far.

[Moogle]

I guess my main point is that graphic content, be it sexual or blood (which in Martin's case are not mutually exclusive...), serves no purpose. So why bother? There are much better ways to depict a brutal world than describing a massacre or a torture scene. Just like there are much better ways of conveying that two people are (physically) attracted to each other than showing them rutting and grunting. 

 

I agree strongly with the last part, though not so much with the first part. Graphic scenes, be it fight scenes or sex scenes, do serve a purpose, even if they do not advance the story. I think that at least some of the sex scenes in ASOIAF can be seen as ways for the reader to get into a character's head, a prime example probably being the poor Kingsguard at the start of AFFC, who is wracked by guilt even as he breaks his vows with Arianne. Did GRRM need to physically describe the sex? No, and I think there are perhaps more subtle ways to convey the same sort of thing, but claiming it serves "no purpose" seems to be missing the point. GRRM is a poor erotica writer, if you want to claim his sex scenes border on erotica. (I still have nightmares about the descriptions of a certain scene with Tyrion.) Sex as a method of characterization is, I think, a valid storytelling method, though not one I would welcome in Brandon's novels.

 

As something of an interesting note, it was wrong of me to describe Brandon's novels as "sexless". I would say rather that sex is never shown in a positive light, or very understated if it is (Breeze and Alrianne, Dalinar and Navani). Warbreaker is, I would agree, the best Brandon has done in that particular arena. Here's a few examples of how sex/nakedness is shown negatively:

• Tresting and the nobility raping skaa girls (and killing them after)
• Straff's mistresses and Straff in general.
• Zane's rather interesting use of knives.
• Adolin meets a prostitute who was kicked out of a guy's tent when he wanted to avoid paying her. He rather lewdly laces up his pants and appears to be something of a jerk.
• Siri's first night with Susebron was incredibly awkward.
• Iadon sacrificing women was, I think, done naked.
• Steris' rather, uh, sterile approach.
• Breeze's constant guilt (which he got over, I suppose).

I think lust and physical attraction are portrayed negatively in Brandon's novels, or at least that they tend to be characteristics of his villains and darker characters. This is not a constant; Legion had a rather amusing scene as I recall that bucked the trend. Still, overall, sex is not a huge part of Brandon's novels, partially due to Mormon influences I would imagine.

 

Again, I want to emphasize that I am not trying to criticize Brandon, just compare and contrast his work with ASOIAF and show why people on this board tend to not like ASOIAF. As for my actual thoughts on the topic, I would prefer if Brandon was a little bit more blatant about the fact that sex goes on, but it's hardly something I'm worried about. The occasional thought by Dalinar thinking about how smooth Navani's skin or something is all I ask for to make things subtle-but-there. Vin and Elend had a rather glaring lack of that sort of thing. Happily, Brandon improves with every book and he keeps getting better at showing-not-telling.

 

As for ASOIAF, I would like to take a moment to say how wonderful Arya is and how disappointed I am that GRRM said he threw away an idea for writing an entire novel based on her, and following themes of identity and growing up. I would have killed for that.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Moogle

[Ete'ni]

Moogle, I understand that but the gift to write sex scenes are not given to every writer. So, why not just leave it behind the pages? Actually there's probably nothing new to add to the issue seeing how people tried to write those piles of books.

 

And I don't know what value actually raping & sex scene can add. Nope. I'd say there are books that tell better of that. why use so many words for that? I don't see such nesessity as we are talking about fantasy fiction not some women's novels.

 

And come on, what would fans write about?

Edited November 6, 2013 by Aetae

[Zizoz he/him]

GRRM hates fanfiction, so maybe he's trying to make it unnecessary by including sex scenes?  

 

I'm a fan of both authors personally, if anyone's keeping count. I can see how people here could either like or dislike ASOIAF. And Arya is my favorite character ever and totally deserves her own book.

[Moogle]

And come on, what would fans write about?

 

Everything they'd normally write about, I guess? Sex isn't really integral to GRRM's books, in the same way that Robert Jordan's longwinded prose wasn't integral to the Wheel of Time, it just added value.

 

As to what value it adds... the same as a combat scene, I guess? I find the sheer 'ick' most people (including me) get when reading sex scenes interesting, especially when it's completely absent from descriptions of fighting and death. It seems odd most people get very upset with people loving each other and not so much with people getting their heads chopped off. Culture can be a bit silly.

 

Things sex does in GRRM's novels:

• Worldbuilding. Catelyn's first bit with Ned in AGOT was quite telling: she wants to give him more sons. This sets the world as medieval, and also shows how gender roles work.
• Character development: Ser Arys Oakheart breaking his vows at the start of AFFC. Tyrion showing that he really does just want to be loved in every single scene. Cersei wanting to be a man (oh god that scene still makes me feel so awkward). Sex shows off a character's emotions.
• Plot development: Cersei. I won't be more specific to avoid spoiling things.

I could go on for a while, but I don't think it's necessary. Sex adds value in ASOIAF. It's certainly not for erotic purposes (or at least, not just for that), regardless of whether or not GRRM is a dirty dirty old man (which he might be).

Edited November 7, 2013 by Moogle

[Argent he/him]

But the vast majority of those things could have been done as internal monologue and character conflict after the fact. You don't need to show me Tyrion's bedding mechanics with every whore in King's Landing if you want me to understand that he cares about love. In fact, I don't need any of that. The way he thinks about his first love, and to a lesser extent how he thinks about Shae and Sansa, is enough.

[Moogle]

But the vast majority of those things could have been done as internal monologue and character conflict after the fact. You don't need to show me Tyrion's bedding mechanics with every whore in King's Landing if you want me to understand that he cares about love. In fact, I don't need any of that. The way he thinks about his first love, and to a lesser extent how he thinks about Shae and Sansa, is enough.

 

Reasonable. You can get the same ideas across in multiple ways, some subtler than others. GRRM chose sex, and I am certainly not arguing that anyone has to like it. I also think that a similar argument can be made for the fighting in something like Mistborn - did we really have to see a flayed corpse with its skull crushed? Vin's horror could be shown after the fact. It's the author's choice as to what they show directly, and ultimately different people will like (and dislike) different things. GRRM's own words on the matter interest me:

 

 

I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it's madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. Axes entering skulls, well, not so much.

 

Everyone finding sex much more shocking than descriptions of death and sadness is an artifact of our culture, and I can't help but find it interesting because I feel it myself. This sort of thing is part of why I read fantasy novels.

 

On a side note, I don't believe Tyrion ever actually has a sex scene with any whores in King's Landing besides Shae. He certainly talks to whores, and some are beaten by Cersei because she thinks he's visiting them, but I don't recall any sex. I think that the sex scenes seem more numerous than they are simply because they're moderately shocking. I wonder if anyone's counted them?

[Ete'ni]

.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[Moogle]

Warning of ASOIAF book spoilers.

 

That's not much love in TSOIAF, sorry to dissapoint you. Sex doesn't equals love. I'd say there's not anymore. the last book didn't even have enough good jokes. It was just grim. And not having god jokes is a sin for a book.

• Jon and Ygritte,
• Ned and Catelyn,
• Jaime and Cersei,
• Dany and Drogo,
• Arys and Arianne,
• Sam and Gilly.

All had sex scenes, all were in love. You can make a case for Dany and Daario as well. The books almost have a disgusting amount of romances. Those who didn't have sex scenes include:

• Renly and Loras (for obvious reasons),
• and Robb and Jeyne.

For flings and/or alluded love we have:

• Ned and Ashara (potentially),
• Arya and Gendry (potentially),
• Jaime and Brienne (potentially),
• Sansa and Sandor (potentially),
• Rhaegar and Lyanna,
• Tyrion and his crofter's girl,
• and Tyrion and Penny (potentially).

For unrequited love:

• Robert's love for Lyanna.
• Jorah's love for Dany.
• Lysa's love for Petyr.
• Petyr's love for Catelyn.
• Tyrion's love for Shae.
• Jon Connington's love for Rhaegar.
• Bran's love for Meera.

Rather than A Song of Ice and Fire, the series really should have been named "Everyone Looks for Love In The Middle Of An Ice Monster Attack (Also Some Political Intrigue!)".

 

Yeah, sex isn't love, and yes there are sex scenes without the participants being in love but those are few and far in between in ASOIAF. I don't even know if there's been a rape on screen (unless you want to count Dany and Drogo, though the books had Dany as quite willing).

 

As for the last book... yeah, ADWD was depressing, same as AFFC. The books are on a downwards spiral on the happiness front, and have been since the start. Rereading the first bit of AGOT almost made me want to cry. I agree with whoever said that they can't recommend ASOIAF as much anymore. Can't disagree with you saying the books are grim. GRRM said the ending will be bittersweet, and originally I thought he meant something like Hero of Ages bittersweet, but now...

 

The humor is there, though it's not the humor Brandon does. Stannis has some great dry humor, as does Dolorous Edd.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Moogle

[Ete'ni]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by Ete'ni

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Well for any complaints that there hasn't been much Wight Walker activity, it's because it's just now Winter. Can't really have the evil forces of snow and Winter doing much in the Summer/Fall. But I am positive the next book is going to give us the cold, undead army we've been waiting for.

As for the sex scenes. Are they really that distracting/harmful to the book? I think the consistent tugging of braids and horribly drawn out, dry explanations of every single type of gilded inlay and fancy embroidery a characters sees is a bit more annoying than two people mashing bodies together.

And I don't know about the argument that people aren't actually in love in the books. That is a little bit of a bold statement. Of course Ned loved his wife. Daenarys and Khal Drogo? Yes. That was love after a while. Let's look at their first sex scene. First impression: Okay. Crazy barbaric warlord is about to violate this poor teenager.
But what happens? Khol Drogo shows a part of him that people wouldn't even think to exist. His slow, tender touches. The way he deliberately and methodically warms up Dany to his touch, the way he actually makes her feel comfortable and show that he is not just trying to have sex with her. He wanted her to want him. He asks, "No?" until she finally says Yes. Granted, I won't claim that that scene right there is love between them. But it's the first step.

Yeah, GRRM could have written that as a memory. Dany fondly recalling the past nights events in the morning. But wasn't it so much stronger when it was immediate? There's no way to capture that emotion of in-the-minute as it's happening in past tense.

Jamie and Cersei? Twisted. But love. At least at first. Yeah it's a bit messed up. But it's real. Sex, whether you agree or not, is one of the most important aspects of human civilization. Without it, we wouldn't exist. It is a crucial part of real life. So I don't really think it's that bad when you have time in book spend on it. Was it over done? Barely, I'd say. And it's not even that I was getting off on it or anything. It's real. It's consistent. The show does it more than the books anyway. Now that is a bit overdone.

[Argent he/him]

Peeing and pooping are pretty essential too, and far more frequent than sex (you claim otherwise, I call you a dirty liar), but it's almost never present in books. Throwaway figures of speech ("um," "uh," "er...") are another fact of life we rarely see in books. Books, and novels especially, filter much of reality in order to paint a picture whose emphasis is in line with the idea of the book. So Martin's books focus on a world where violence and sex are dominant enough aspects to warrant a presence in his prose. Which, to me, is not a very interesting world - I would, in a heartbeat, replace all the sex scenes with infodumps about dragons and Old Valyria.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Chaos
Language

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Well we'd all know that info. But when we follow these characters stories, they don't come across people with Old Valyrian or Dragon info. They do have sex and all that gross stuff people do (like pooping and peeing). Which is what I think GRRM is kind of going for. People have historically done way worse and nastier things. And sex and violence have been two of the most pivotal themes is human history. We are some aggressive perverts. I just don't think a fantasy world depicting that is that much of a stretch.

But I do understand that some people don't like it and would prefer it not to be there. Yes, some of the sex scenes are inconsequential overall to the whole major plots of the books, but I think it help adds that touch of realism. When all the old great war generals of the past had victories and settled down for the night, they went and banged their concubines.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Gamma Fiend

[Ete'ni]

Actually, sex, and potty business were considers a comedy stuff in early days. Just go check ancient Greek comedies. Still, is it essencial for the story, how a character does it? that's a question for an author himself.

 

Gamma Fiend

Love can't be twisted. Some things are just whether are or not. If it's twisted, it has another term. That's the problem with the society: they need to use a higher term to justify things. Then they think they can do anything since the reason is worth the means. Well, actually, not. It doesn't work that way. If you twist a thing, it'll become a lie.

[EC11 he/him]

 I would, in a heartbeat, replace all the sex scenes with infodumps about dragons and Old Valyria.

 Problem is that would ruin all the mystery and careful plotting Martin is trying to set up by leaving things intentionally vague or unclear, much like Brandon does 

 

Now don't get me wrong, I agree some of the sex scenes are over the top (and some of the gratuitous rape and torture references as well, and ADWD had two scenes that really irked me for the sheer grotesqueness of them, but even I admitted they were necessary as world building and characterization purposes) but I personally think he has a point when saying they are necessary in describing the human condition. He is also an author who subscribes heavily to the 'show don't tell' side of writing, and if a character has traits that can only be shown then by God he will show them to you.

 

I personally love both Sanderson and Martin, and I love them for different reasons. I love Martin because he is a master of characterization and his world is fascinating and unique, not to mention his grasp of politics and Machiavellian schemes is second to none. I love Sanderson because he builds fabulous worlds and populates them with both interesting characters and amazing magic systems.

 

The two serve cross purposes for me. Martin reminds me of the gritty dirty nasty reality of the world and how humans can be bastards (but also well meaning and ultimately good doing ones as well, see Dany, Jon, Tyrion, and Robb) while Sanderson shows people who are ultimately good at heart who face other misguided people, and on some occassions outright monsters, (Straff, Ruin, or Mr. Suit anyone?).

 

I read Sanderson as escapist fiction mostly, while I read Martin as a brain bending and sometimes frustrating thriller series which keeps me guessing around every corner. Brandon does the same thing, but in different ways.

 

It all comes down to how a different author wants to portray something and how he wishes to go about accomplishing it. Simple as that I think.

 

But that's just my opinion