Taravangian Explained!

[Shardcellist]

So, I was Lost in Thought, and I made a few discoveries. Upon my return from the Cognitive Realm, I feel an urgency to tell you what really happened to Taravangian, King of Kharbranth.

 

First, a little review. After hearing about Gavilar Kholin's visions, and following his assassination by our friend Szeth, Taravangian sought out the Old Magic. His request from the Nightwatcher was for "Capacity. The capacity to save mankind." As we all know, the Nightwatcher hears your requests, then gives you what she feels you deserve, along with an accompanying curse. In Taravangian's case, he has his intelligence (mental capacity) vary day by day, and his compassion vary according to his mental capacity. So on one day he can be brilliant and coldhearted, and the next day is slow of thought but empathetic.

 

Now we get into controversy. Which is his blessing, and which is his curse? One is the ability to be both dumb and smart, and the other is the ability to be both empathetic and indifferent. Neither sounds entirely like a blessing or a curse to me.

 

My discovery, therefore, is this: He was indeed given two abilities, a blessing and a curse, but they are different from what we've previously assumed. One is zinc Allomancy, and the other is zinc Feruchemy. (We leave it to His Majesty's mind, on a strong day, to deduce which is which.) However, he was unaware of these powers. Thus, some days he stores mental speed while Rioting compassion, while other days he taps the "mental capacity" stored previously.

 

And one day, by accident, he began Compounding.

 

Countering objections concerning the Nightwatcher.

Now, one may ask how the Nightwatcher did this. We, however, have WOB that any Shard can power any magic system, but doing so requires expending power in a way they were hesitant to do. The Nightwatcher obviously uses Investiture of some sort, but we have another WOB that says she is not Cultivation. Honor is dead, and Odium is unlikely. Therefore, the Nightwatcher is less likely to care about how this power is expended.

 

Now all Taravangian needs to do is recruit a Scadrian worldhopper to work on the Diagram.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Shardcellist

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I'm... trying to decide if you're serious or not here, but I find this a hard theory to buy into.

 

Either way, I've never thought that the Intelligence/Empathy thing is separate abilities. I've always assumed that for big T his empathy is naturally inversely proportionate to his intelligence. I feel like we don't know what his curse is per se, and I can't find a WoB to support the IQ being either the blessing or the curse. It may be both, but there is probably something else going on. Similar to Dalinar, is not being able to remember Shshshsh his blessing or his curse? 

[Shardcellist]

Not serious.

 

This isn't meant to be an actual theory (contrary to popular belief, I haven't been to Shadesmar recently.) I just thought it interesting that his intelligence fluctuations seemed to fit one of the Feruchemical metals, and that the one Allomantic metal that would let him Compound on Diagram Day happened to be one of the two Emotional metals.

 

Perhaps a few more Realmatic jokes are needed to lighten the mood here...

 

So, a Koloss walked into a bar. The bar said, "Ouch." (It had been Awakened with the Command, "Feel Pain.")

[ShardedPantsBearer]

Taravangian is certainly on a bad path and I think we will discover Mrall and the others involved are walking him down it.

Theory:  His Capacity to save humankind will come from his Compassion, not his Intelligence.  He will have a reversal late in his arc where he redeems himself.

[Islington]

I asked Brandon on Twitter whether it was actually stupidity and compassion or if it was instead Cognitive connection and Spiritual connection and he told me I was on the right track. 

[Krandacth]

On 2014-9-12 at 0:22 AM, Shardcellist said:

It had been Awakened with the Command, "Feel Pain."

That is a horrific sadistic command, especially as there was no reference to cause or even causality. You just gave an unthinking thing pseudo sentience only to feel nothing but unending pain. Kudos.

[Lightflame he/him]

23 hours ago, Islington said:

I asked Brandon on Twitter whether it was actually stupidity and compassion or if it was instead Cognitive connection and Spiritual connection and he told me I was on the right track. 

Dang, this made me consider a new possibility. A lot of people think his "ultimate day of intelligence" was just him being manipulated by Odium or someone else. This could explain how it happened. Since Shards are in the Spiritual Realm, what if his day of "intelligence" was really a day of "compassion" where his connection to the Spiritual Realm was so strong that he was taken over?

[Krandacth]

3 minutes ago, Lightflame said:

Dang, this made me consider a new possibility. A lot of people think his "ultimate day of intelligence" was just him being manipulated by Odium or someone else. This could explain how it happened. Since Shards are in the Spiritual Realm, what if his day of "intelligence" was really a day of "compassion" where his connection to the Spiritual Realm was so strong that he was taken over?

So, this has been discussed quite a lot in the past, though your terminology probably hits the nail more square on the head. Have a link to my old topic on this... topic. (Othertheoriesareavailablebysearch)

 

[Calderis he/him]

6 hours ago, Lightflame said:

Dang, this made me consider a new possibility. A lot of people think his "ultimate day of intelligence" was just him being manipulated by Odium or someone else. This could explain how it happened. Since Shards are in the Spiritual Realm, what if his day of "intelligence" was really a day of "compassion" where his connection to the Spiritual Realm was so strong that he was taken over?

The biggest problem I have with this (and any variation of the day of the Diagram was his stupid days) is that his intelligence and compassion are proportionally inverted. 

The Diagram was constructed with an invented language, piecing together facts to create a plan over the course of years that is goal oriented with no thought for the cost in life and suffering. 

If his compassionate days at their height allowed a glimpse into the spiritual, and the Diagram were made on those days, the Diagram would reflect his compassion and proceed in a very different sequence of events. 

Now, it's possible that on his compassionate days he got that glimpse, and on his day of Supreme intelligence he was able to use those glimpses to formulate the plan. But the Diagram itself is a remorseless, goal oriented plan with no regard for the suffering it imposes. It was constructed in a blur of pure intellect that needed a new language to be created, and facts to be processed at a rate that says his assumptions about that day are mostly correct. 

His sources for the information he extrapolated from are an entirely different matter though. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Calderis

[Lightflame he/him]

32 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

So, this has been discussed quite a lot in the past, though your terminology probably hits the nail more square on the head. Have a link to my old topic on this... topic. (Othertheoriesareavailablebysearch)

 

Wow, this sums everything up nicely. It even says that Cultivation did it, which is what I was thinking.

Also, it made me think of a way for Taravangian to still help the heroes. After learning that he was manipulated, he somehow gets Odium to possess him on another "day of compassion", and the Radiants are able to use him to seal Odium away.

The evil king becomes the Champion of the dark god, but he does it to save the world.

[Calderis he/him]

40 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

So, this has been discussed quite a lot in the past, though your terminology probably hits the nail more square on the head. Have a link to my old topic on this... topic. (Othertheoriesareavailablebysearch)

 

This actually covers all of the points I brought up in my previous post. It does fit Cultivation well... Hmm. 

I like it. 

[Ari he/him]

On 12/09/2014 at 11:02 AM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I'm... trying to decide if you're serious or not here, but I find this a hard theory to buy into.

 

Either way, I've never thought that the Intelligence/Empathy thing is separate abilities. I've always assumed that for big T his empathy is naturally inversely proportionate to his intelligence. I feel like we don't know what his curse is per se, and I can't find a WoB to support the IQ being either the blessing or the curse. It may be both, but there is probably something else going on. Similar to Dalinar, is not being able to remember Shshshsh his blessing or his curse? 

That's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis. My guess has always been that the capacity he was granted by the nightwatcher was actually the enhanced empathy he displays when stupid, and he's gotten completely sidetracked with the enhanced intelligence thing, which has also left him open to subtle manipulation by one of the Unmade, and that the intelligence is in fact his curse, but it's entirely possible that it's just part of his blessing and we don't know his curse at all.

5 hours ago, Lightflame said:

Wow, this sums everything up nicely. It even says that Cultivation did it, which is what I was thinking.

Also, it made me think of a way for Taravangian to still help the heroes. After learning that he was manipulated, he somehow gets Odium to possess him on another "day of compassion", and the Radiants are able to use him to seal Odium away.

The evil king becomes the Champion of the dark god, but he does it to save the world.

I find that theory very hard to buy into because so many of the conclusions Taravangian comes to when writing the Diagram are cold, intellectual ones about sacrificing lives "for the greater good" rather than ones based on empathy. If he's being influenced by Cultivation, which is a very real possibility, (from what Brandon has said about her before, it's a very real possibility she would see the logic to allowing much of the human race on Roshar to die in order to save a few, as she's apparently one of the most compatible Shards with Ruin's intent) I would have thought it happened on a supremely intelligent day, like they surmise. I certainly feel like the Diagram isn't entirely his own work, whatever's going on.

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, Ari said:

That's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis. My guess has always been that the capacity he was granted by the nightwatcher was actually the enhanced empathy he displays when stupid, and he's gotten completely sidetracked with the enhanced intelligence thing, which has also left him open to subtle manipulation by one of the Unmade, and that the intelligence is in fact his curse, but it's entirely possible that it's just part of his blessing and we don't know his curse at all.

I find that theory very hard to buy into because so many of the conclusions Taravangian comes to when writing the Diagram are cold, intellectual ones about sacrificing lives "for the greater good" rather than ones based on empathy. If he's being influenced by Cultivation, which is a very real possibility, (from what Brandon has said about her before, it's a very real possibility she would see the logic to allowing much of the human race on Roshar to die in order to save a few, as she's apparently one of the most compatible Shards with Ruin's intent) I would have thought it happened on a supremely intelligent day, like they surmise. I certainly feel like the Diagram isn't entirely his own work, whatever's going on.

The intent of Cultivation fits perfectly. View humanity as the plant and the Diagram is the instructions on how to prune for a plant hardy enough to survive and grow after a terrible storm.

Cultivation is not just growth, but shaped and guided growth. You don't feel empathy for the plant you're pruning, you just look to the future of what you want that plant to become. 

[Ari he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

The intent of Cultivation fits perfectly. View humanity as the plant and the Diagram is the instructions on how to prune for a plant hardy enough to survive and grow after a terrible storm.

Cultivation is not just growth, but shaped and guided growth. You don't feel empathy for the plant you're pruning, you just look to the future of what you want that plant to become. 

Actually a lot of good gardeners do feel empathy when they prune a plant, (which is rather hilarious as an analogy, because as far as we know plant life can't feel pain) they just accept the necessity and feel that they're being compassionate in the long term, somewhat like setting a broken bone or something.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about it fitting Cultivation's intent to provide that info to Taravangian, even though it's not my personal favoured theory. I just disagree that the method being used is heightened empathy, because that in no way resembles the internal dialogue that's reflected in some of the excerpts of the diagram, which largely talks about needs, strategies, and uses very utilitarian language.

It's not the conclusions that are the problem, it's that the language used reflects a style of thinking that makes it reasonably clear that the diagram was written from a place of intelligence, not of empathy. Also, if Cultivation wanted to influence Taravangian, she didn't even need to gift him empathy to do that. He was asking a boon of one of her Spren, she could have just given him the knowledge she wanted to impart if that suited her. It has a few problems with Occam's Razor.

[Calderis he/him]

@Ari I agree. I don't pretend to know what's going on with Taravangian, but if you look at my first post in this thread, I make the same points you're making. 

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

The biggest problem I have with this (and any variation of the day of the Diagram was his stupid days) is that his intelligence and compassion are proportionally inverted. 

The Diagram was constructed with an invented language, piecing together facts to create a plan over the course of years that is goal oriented with no thought for the cost in life and suffering. 

If his compassionate days at their height allowed a glimpse into the spiritual, and the Diagram were made on those days, the Diagram would reflect his compassion and proceed in a very different sequence of events. 

Now, it's possible that on his compassionate days he got that glimpse, and on his day of Supreme intelligence he was able to use those glimpses to formulate the plan. But the Diagram itself is a remorseless, goal oriented plan with no regard for the suffering it imposes. It was constructed in a blur of pure intellect that needed a new language to be created, and facts to be processed at a rate that says his assumptions about that day are mostly correct. 

His sources for the information he extrapolated from are an entirely different matter though. 

I like the idea that he could be influenced by cultivation, but I also think it would be his interpretation on a intelligent day. As much as I believe cultivation as a concept can be goal oriented and purely utilitarian, I think that Cultivation as an intent is more nurturing. Accepting pain where needed, but not disregarding it. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

@Ari @Calderis
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I remember there being an in-book mention that he needed another day of intelligence to actually interpret/understand what he wrote on the Day of Brilliance(Diagram Day, if you will)

If I am remembering correctly, then his disposition on Diagram Day may not really be the deciding factor anymore. His intelligence on the Day of Interpretation helped shape how he acted on his works from the Day of Brilliance. Diagram Day could've been a day on unrivaled compassion, but if Cultivation interfered with what he saw, his disposition isn't really in charge anyway.

Now, if someone were to interfere on the Day of Interpretation...

[Calderis he/him]

20 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

@Ari @Calderis
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I remember there being an in-book mention that he needed another day of intelligence to actually interpret/understand what he wrote on the Day of Brilliance(Diagram Day, if you will)

If I am remembering correctly, then his disposition on Diagram Day may not really be the deciding factor anymore. His intelligence on the Day of Interpretation helped shape how he acted on his works from the Day of Brilliance. Diagram Day could've been a day on unrivaled compassion, but if Cultivation interfered with what he saw, his disposition isn't really in charge anyway.

Now, if someone were to interfere on the Day of Interpretation...

You are absolutely correct, and that does change quite a bit. 

[Ari he/him]

5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

@Ari @Calderis
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I remember there being an in-book mention that he needed another day of intelligence to actually interpret/understand what he wrote on the Day of Brilliance(Diagram Day, if you will)

If I am remembering correctly, then his disposition on Diagram Day may not really be the deciding factor anymore. His intelligence on the Day of Interpretation helped shape how he acted on his works from the Day of Brilliance. Diagram Day could've been a day on unrivaled compassion, but if Cultivation interfered with what he saw, his disposition isn't really in charge anyway.

Now, if someone were to interfere on the Day of Interpretation...

That is absolutely a fair point too.

[GildedBear]

I've always felt that his gift was the intelligent and compassion (together the capacity if you will) to allow humanity to survive and his curse is that he doesn't have them at the same time so his ability to use that capacity is limited.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

4 minutes ago, GildedBear said:

I've always felt that his gift was the intelligent and compassion (together the capacity if you will) to allow humanity to survive and his curse is that he doesn't have them at the same time so his ability to use that capacity is limited.

Oh yay, another person who agrees with me I always felt that was the primary reason he wrote it down. Not to remember it, but so that both sides of his intellect could interpret it.