Storing Gravity

[A Joe in the Bush]

In the thread, The Most Useless Uses for Useful Powers, We had a Conversation about splitting someone in Half using the Surge of Gravitation. I didn't post this, But I though, that I could easily escape a Windrunner or Skybreaker Storing or Tapping Weight to Counteract the Gravity. Then I started wondering if that was possible.

 

The Powers according to the Coppermind Wiki:

Iron

Iron stores Physical Weight. Iron is used to store physical mass, or more accurately, density. This is accomplished by changing the Feruchemist's mass, not by changing the effect of gravity on the Feruchemist.The greater density has no effect on the Feruchemist's vulnerability to penetration. Tapping iron grants the Feruchemist the strength requisite to remain standing.

An iron Ferring is known as a Skimmer

 

Gravitation

Reverse Lashing

By using the Reverse Lashing, a Surgebinder can increase the gravitational pull of an object, allowing them to subtly pull nearby objects toward it. The Surgebinder must maintain contact with the object to Reverse Lash it.

 

So the Windrunner can increase or change the Gravity of a person, making them heavier or Lighter. Kaladin did this to himself in the duel in the Arena Lashing himself several times to another Duelist, effectively falling with Incredible weight onto the man.

 

So, if Kaladin were to Lash Sazed Downwards a couple hundred times, could Sazed Store this 'Weight' in his Ironmind?

[Dellexe]

Question

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

 

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They're storing Mass, so I'd guess that they'd still store at the same rate regardless of how strongly their being pulled down. I could be wrong.

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Interesting theory though. It'd make Feruchemy even more OP.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Kal Dell

[Lightsworn Panda]

I think you mean Basic Lashing, instead of Reverse Lashing.

 

According to the Coppermind Wiki:

 

 

This ability alters an object's or being's spiritual gravitational bond to the planet below, instead temporarily linking it to a different object or direction. It allows the Surgebinder to run up walls, send objects or people flying off into the air. Advanced users of Basic Lashing can employ partial Lashings—a half Lashing upward, for example, would make the Surgebinder effectively weightless, while a quarter Lashing would halve the person's weight.

 

So if the Basic Lashing increases the bond of an object to the planet below, but not the mass, then Feruchemy in my view would theoretically not store the added weight.

 

...

 

Wait... our weight is what  planet's gravity makes out of our mass, so by Lashing someone, we increase their bond to the planet, effectively increasing their mass... And Iron can store weight...

 

...

 

Looks like Feruchemy CAN store the added weight of a lashing.

[Stormwalker]

So if the Basic Lashing increases the bond of an object to the planet below, but not the mass, then Feruchemy in my view would theoretically not store the added weight.

 

...

 

Wait... our weight is what  planet's gravity makes out of our mass, so by Lashing someone, we increase their bond to the planet, effectively increasing their mass... And Iron can store weight...

 

I think you were right with the first sentence. Saying that a Lashing increases the 'bond' of objects together suggests to me that it is the classical physics equivalent of increasing G (Newton's gravitational constant), which would increase the force of gravity between the two objects without changing the mass (F= -GmM/r^2). This is evident as (in a vacuum), gravity makes everything falls at the same acceleration, so just increasing the mass of an object would not significantly increase its falling speed (at least until it neared terminal velocity, where the effects of air resistance would become more significant). Thus basic Lashings increase a persons weight, not their mass.

[Moogle]

The words used to describe Iron are that they store "mass" or "density". They don't store weight. A Feruchemist should be able to store when in the middle of deep space, and it would make it easier for them to travel around with a jetpack or something. A Lashing should not affect storage rates, though tapping weight to make yourself really heavy should basically let you 'shrug off' Lashings (since heavier objects are harder to Lash - although, is this true? Is it a function of size or is it a function of weight?).

[king of nowhere]

probably you cannot store the lashing, but you can make yourself wheightless so as to ignore them. what moogle suggested is also an intersting possibility, it may cause the other guy to accidentally drain all his stormlight.

[weebojello]

Well, Brandon has stated that Allomancy will be pushing spaceships in the final Misborn trilogy. Interesting idea that lashing / storing could be used in a contraption to allow for similar things to happen.

[Cstryon]

The way I see it, tapping iron effectively makes me heavier, or more massive, storing does the opposite.

Now being lashed in a direction makes gravity change for me right? So I'd assume that I'd still fall in that direction. If just be heavier or lighter as I did. I don't think I could cancel the lashing because the bond to gravity has been changed for me.

So to avoid falling up I'd want to store weight, making air resistance slow my "fall" as apposed to trying to get heavier.

[the winter system]

I think you mean Basic Lashing, instead of Reverse Lashing.

 

According to the Coppermind Wiki:

 

So if the Basic Lashing increases the bond of an object to the planet below, but not the mass, then Feruchemy in my view would theoretically not store the added weight.

 

...

 

Wait... our weight is what  planet's gravity makes out of our mass, so by Lashing someone, we increase their bond to the planet, effectively increasing their mass... And Iron can store weight...

 

...

 

Looks like Feruchemy CAN store the added weight of a lashing.

Increasing WEIGHT, not MASS. Weight is how gravity effects you. 

EDIT: Sorry. I didn't mean that. It was a "heat of the moment" sort of thing. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by pir2h

[Windrunner]

Increasing WEIGHT, not MASS. Weight is how gravity effects you. Ugh. Can people get simple scientific terms right?

No need for rudeness, pir2h. Some people are new to this sort of thing, and everyone makes mistakes. Please keep it civil.

[echaozh]

The words used to describe Iron are that they store "mass" or "density". They don't store weight. A Feruchemist should be able to store when in the middle of deep space, and it would make it easier for them to travel around with a jetpack or something. A Lashing should not affect storage rates, though tapping weight to make yourself really heavy should basically let you 'shrug off' Lashings (since heavier objects are harder to Lash - although, is this true? Is it a function of size or is it a function of weight?).

 

Well, if you're creating another bond for the object to defy gravity, it certainly has to be stronger than the gravity force on the object. So the weight affects how much effort is needed to lash an object.

 

The way I see it, tapping iron effectively makes me heavier, or more massive, storing does the opposite.

Now being lashed in a direction makes gravity change for me right? So I'd assume that I'd still fall in that direction. If just be heavier or lighter as I did. I don't think I could cancel the lashing because the bond to gravity has been changed for me.

So to avoid falling up I'd want to store weight, making air resistance slow my "fall" as apposed to trying to get heavier.

 

More mass is better, because then there will be a larger gravity force for the new bond to cope with.

[Incheoul]

Force (Newtons) = Mass (kg) * Acceleration (m/s²)

 

Weight is the force on a person due to their mass and gravity. It is a vector and thus, has a direction as well.  It follows the same formula as F=ma but can be written as W=mg where W is Weight and g is gravity.  

 

Windrunners are able to alter an existing gravitational force by manipulating the acceleration and choosing a different direction for the vector.  On top of this, they can apply multiple lashings which would then result in more forces acting on the target.

 

A feruchemist making himself heavier or leighter would not make much of a difference when lashed to the sky.  You'll still fall into the sky regardless of how heavy or light you are.  If he makes himself heavier, he'll just fall upwards with more force.  If he makes himself lighter, he'll still fall upwards just with less force.  The surgebinder is the one manipulating acceleration whereas manipulating mass just changes how strong or weak the force is

 

In order to make any significant difference, the feruchemist would have to store his mass to 0kg causing the force applied to him to be 0 Newtons which would result in no movement from gravitational forces.  I don't think it'd be possible to store literally all of your mass at one time in your metalminds.

[Paragrin]

pssst

air resistance will slow you down if the force is small enough

[Incheoul]

Air resistance will slow you down either way but what does that really matter when you're falling into the deep blue sky? It's pretty negligible.

[Paragrin]

Not when you have a really low mass-to-surface area ratio. Think Sazed's trick in Well of Ascension. He falls at a speed comparable to that of a piece of paper. I don't think that counts as negligible.

And it would be really easy for a Feruchemist to /survive/ a Lashing into the air. Fall up really slowly and wait for the Stormlight to run out, fall really slowly back down....

[Incheoul]

Well I assume there's a limit to how much mass you can store at once without hurting or killing yourself. Even if you make your mass 10% of normal, a wind runner can apply multiple lashings. I see your point however.

I guess if a wind runner wanted to kill the feruchemist, he could just crush him with multiple lashings to the ground instead.

[Redbird]

Just a thought, it it truly is mass( I know it isn't) then your volume is static, so, would you float better? Since that is lowering density.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Redbird3000

[Moogle]

Just a thought, it it truly is mass, then your volume is static, so, would you float better? Since that is lowering density.

 

While it probably would help you float/sink, you're not more or less "dense" in actuality. Bullets will still harm you the same.

 

Doesn't make sense, but Brandon does point this out as literally just being magic and not really sensical.

 

Feruchemical iron and time bubbles, my two worst enemies in the Cosmere.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

While it probably would help you float/sink, you're not more or less "dense" in actuality. Bullets will still harm you the same.

 

Doesn't make sense, but Brandon does point this out as literally just being magic and not really sensical.

 

Feruchemical iron and time bubbles, my two worst enemies in the Cosmere.

Feruchemical iron does make some sort of sense. There's no reason why the mass of any given particle has to be any given value. Feruchemical iron just alters that, and presumably hacks in some sort of physics-preserver on the rest of the interactions to avoid messing with everything else.

 

Time bubbles, on the other hand... There are so many problems waiting to happen with those. Some have been thought of, but there are probably hordes of others lurking in the exotic situations.

[Moogle]

Feruchemical iron does make some sort of sense. There's no reason why the mass of any given particle has to be any given value. Feruchemical iron just alters that, and presumably hacks in some sort of physics-preserver on the rest of the interactions to avoid messing with everything else.

 

If the molecules making you up have a heavier weight, the bonds between them have to be stronger or else you'd fall apart. That means you'd be more resistant to bullets. Because of this, I don't think your explanation works, though this may be what you meant when you said 'physics-preserver'. In that case, nevermind.

 

I've tried to model Feruchemical iron, and I just give up every time. It is disgusting and I want it and time bubbles to go away despite how cool both are.

 

(I'd also argue from a Standard Model point of view that the mass of a given particle does have to be a given value. We confirmed the existence of the Higgs boson because we knew what weight range it had to fall under, as I recall. Changing the weights of particles ruins everything.)

Edited October 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Incheoul]

Feruchemical iron appears to ignore anything that would change with the altering mass other than weight. I don't really like it but it is what it is.

[Scriptorian]

Maybe what Feruchemical iron does is summon an invisible inertiaspren. It pushes on you to make you think your weight/mass has changed. Like, when your storing, someone comes along and shoves you, the inertiaspren also pushes on you, in the same direction and with a force proportional to how much you are storring, so effectively you are pushed as though your mass was less and the force the same. Vise-versa for when you're tapping.

 

This spren theory also explains how you can store Feruchemical iron to slow your fall. When you jump over the edge, just it grabs on to your body and spreads itself out like a parachute to increase you air resistant several times over.

 

So no, you couldn't store more weight when lashed because the spren doesn't care about your weight, he just likes pushing you around.

 

This is getting a little silly, but I suppose its as good a model as any for Feruchemical iron. I wonder if invisible spren could also explain timebubbles...