Trust Sadeas

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

So it's been established that the Voice in Dalinar's visions is Honour (or what's left of it). With that in mind, why is it telling him to trust Sadeas?

I see two possibilities:

 

1) As the aspect of Honour, it cannot encourage mistrust, even of the dishonourable, even if it is only a small chance that Sadeas wouldn't turn out to be an utter bastard. Honour requires Dalinar to be the better man and maintain that level of trust of his supposed ally.

 

2) Honour is planning all of this and needed a way to bring Dalinar and Kaladin together. It knew that Sadeas would make some great betrayal and in that moment Kaladin would take up his true mantle and save the day. Without something like Sadeas' betrayal, Kaladin would eventually either have fallen on the field or gone through with his plan and led Bridge 4 in a daring escape. Whether or not it was successful, it would have taken him away from where he needed to be. 

 

 

Thoughts? Any other possible theories?

[Topomouse he/him]

I think you are a bit confused, it gets explained at the and of the Way of Kings. It seems that you have already reached that point but I will put the explanation in spoilers to be sure:

At the end of the book Dalinar has one last vision, the one when the speaker reveals himself as the Almighty/Honor. In that vision Dalinar realise that the visions were all pre-recorded messages. So when he thought that Honor was telling him to trust Sadeas, it was actually Dalinar talking about Sadeas and the message coincidentally talking about trust.

 

I hope this answers your question.

[Shadowspren he/him]

Yeah, I think that you basically said it. I don't have the quote, but in one of his visions (I think) it says something like "act with honor and honor will aid you." So I am pretty sure that Honor has an ability similar to Preservation in being able to see into the future (to an extent) which is how he was able to make the visions. And so he would have known about Dalinar and Kaladin's potential (Kaladin as a windrunner and Dalinar as a Bondsmith). 

Therefore, 

1. Sadeas's betrayal brought Dalinar and Kaladin together to eventually reform the Knights Radiant 
2. That was a fulfilment of Dalinar acting with honor by fighting with Sadeas with the intention to attempt bring the Highprinces together and unite Alethkar and how honor aided him 
3. And it showed Kaldin what being a Windrunner was all about (protecting people who cannot protect themselves)

Therefore my conclusion is that Honor knew Sadeas was dishonorable, but he also knew what it would take to reform the knights radiant and therefore weighed his options and told Dalinar to trust him.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Zaci-chan

[kaellok he/him]

I didn't realize that there would  be confusion over this.  If you haven't finished reading WoK yet, do so.  If you're still confused or missed something, then read Topomouse's explanation.  This issue is explicitly answered in-text.  Since in-text is not completely reliable, it is not a fool-proof answer, and prone to being wrong--however, any alternative theorizing will have a much harder job to explain a few things.

 

WoR spoilers:

 

The visions repeat.  I'm at work, and without the book on hand, but I remember it stated that the visions repeat in a set order each time.  Dalinar is able to find out more by interfering less, but the words of Honor at the end are always exactly the same.  This heavily favors the explanation that Dalinar gives towards the end of WoK, of it being essentially a pre-recorded message.  Any other explanation needs to provide substantially greater explanation than those we've seen so far, to explain how and why the repeating messages occur, rather than always new ones that respond to new questions Dalinar has.

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I know that Honour was basically answering as a recording, but in that recording he talks of seeing the future. 

 

Also, his precise answer to Dalinar after Dalinar asks the question, "Should I trust Sadeas?" is an emphatic "YES!". If this were simply part of the recording, there would be some context for this "YES!" in the previous or next statements. There isn't. It comes out of nowhere. Therefore, logic dictates that it must be answering the question, foreseen to be asked from the distant past.

[Topomouse he/him]

I just re-read the relevant part, and I still think your theory is too forced.

In all the visions Honor's discourse is very fragmented, he jumps from one argument to another in each sentence so it's understandable that Dalinar assumes to be having a conversation, but the "yes" you talk about does have it's context.

The full paragraph is:

"Yes," the being said. "This is important. Do not let strife consume you. be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you.

While this statement can be referred to Sadeas, it has meaning by itself. Also Honor says that he is not so good at predicting the future, so I don't think he could have predicted a minute detail like what Dalinar would say at that precise moment.

[kaellok he/him]

Try reading what Honor said, without all of the in-between bits.

"I miss these times. They were one, once. The orders. Men. Not without problems or strife, of course. But focused. I wish I could help you. You have to unite them. To speak of what might be is forbidden. To speak of what was depends on perspective. But I will try to help. Yes. This is important. Do not let strife consume you. Be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you. I will give you what I can. I am sorry for not giving more."

Those are clear, complete thoughts that work well together, independently from Dalinar's questions. There is not the emphatic "YES!" that you mention; it is a simple "Yes." It is not all-caps, and there is absolutely no emotion given to it by context or text.

Furthermore, if there is a response to "Should I trust Sadeas?" from Dalinar, then why is there not an answer to literally any of the other questions or comments that Dalinar has? For instance, Dalinar, in this same passage, asks the following (again, taken all at once):

"Who are you? The things the knight said about Alethkar. Are they true? Can we really be that way again? Should I continue to trust Sadeas? What should I do about Elhokar, and the war? What kind of answer is that?"

Exactly one of these has anything that resembles a real answer.

And, of course, Honor isn't the best at seeing into the future. His own words:

"I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It's as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future...I can only guess."

There's a minimum of a few hundred years between WoK and when Honor died, which certainly seems to be a rather long period of time to be trying to see into the future in order to see very specific questions asked at a very specific time by a very specific person. A person that Honor knows nothing about.

"I don't know who you are, or how you have found your way here."

If Honor has no idea who he's talking to, or when, then why is he prepared to answer one, singular, question--one question that, honestly, isn't all that important? Kaladin would have been revealed soon or later, whether he wanted to or not. Shallan would have been revealed before him regardless, in basically the exact same circumstances, even if Sadeas had never had the opportunity to betray Dalinar. The biggest difference that is most likely, to be honest, is that Dalinar would have had an army large enough to stop the Stormform Parshendi from summoning the Everstorm.

I really thought that I read from Dalinar that he had seen multiple repeat visions within WoR, but I could not find reference to that when I skimmed through the pages. I sadly don't have basic locations within the book of various scenes of import as well memorized as I do WoK. Regardless, though, even if that was a mis-memory on my part, what we have is a preponderance of evidence suggesting that Dalinar's interpretation of the visions being recorded seems the logical conclusion.

If you can show some response, any response at all, from Honor to Dalinar then you'd have something. But you're continuing to make the same mistake that Dalinar did, without learning from the lessons he lived.

Edit: I started typing this before Topomouse's reply, I just took forever and a day because I got distracted by things. Much of what I said is the same.

Edited September 9, 2014 by kaellok

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I'm not contending that the visions aren't recorded. That is abundantly clear. What I'm suggesting is that "not being good at seeing the future" doesn't mean that the future is vague and blurry, but that Honour sees only small certain moments of it, probably randomly, but in full clarity. I contend that that question of Dalinar's is one of those few moments he saw and, being Honour, even not knowing any of the context would always answer "yes" to a question of whether or not to trust.

[kaellok he/him]

I'm not contending that the visions aren't recorded. That is abundantly clear. What I'm suggesting is that "not being good at seeing the future" doesn't mean that the future is vague and blurry, but that Honour sees only small certain moments of it, probably randomly, but in full clarity. I contend that that question of Dalinar's is one of those few moments he saw and, being Honour, even not knowing any of the context would always answer "yes" to a question of whether or not to trust.

It's possible you are correct.  It goes against a mountain of evidence from in-text, as well as failing a few basic logic tests. (If Honor is speaking to Dalinar by directly responding to one of his questions, he should do so on at least one other time.  If Honor specifically answers Dalinar just once, and never before or again, then that one answer should have Roshar-saving implications).

 

Continue to believe what you want, if it makes you enjoy the story better.  If you're looking to convince others of your theory, though, you have a very, very long way to go.

[dyring]

Point is, Honor is not replying to a question.

 

Dalinar could have asked why the sky is blue and the "reply" from honor would have been exactely the same. It does not listen to what dalinar says at all.

Dalinar is just watching a recording and mistakenly thinks its an interaktive conversation. 

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

I'm not contending that the visions aren't recorded. That is abundantly clear. What I'm suggesting is that "not being good at seeing the future" doesn't mean that the future is vague and blurry, but that Honour sees only small certain moments of it, probably randomly, but in full clarity. I contend that that question of Dalinar's is one of those few moments he saw and, being Honour, even not knowing any of the context would always answer "yes" to a question of whether or not to trust.

 

Honor sees the future as a shattering window. He can see the future clearly at first, but the further he looks into the future, the more variations and different outcomes he sees. I am interpreting from that that Honor can see the whole future clearly, just that there's too many of them.

[Topomouse he/him]

Honor sees the future as a shattering window. He can see the future clearly at first, but the further he looks into the future, the more variations and different outcomes he sees. I am interpreting from that that Honor can see the whole future clearly, just that there's too many of them.

 

That still doesn't help much. Even if you see each possibility very well you are not going to get a clear picture of the future if there are millions of them. Also, we can assume that most possible futures are going to be pretty similar to each other on the macroscopic scale (there are some big events that are going to happen regardless of the actions of an individual), but very different in the little details. Little details like what the undetermined person your Cognitive Shadow is going to send your vision to is going to say in a determinate moment and what the situation around him is going to be.

 

I really can't call what you describe seeing clearly. it's like having 100 different  very high quality photos of something, one is true the others have been modified in some ways, you have no means of distinguishing the true one. The best you can do is guess the general shape of whatever is depicted in the photos by taking the most common shape for each feature. You are probably going to get the general shape mostly right but you are going to be fuzzy on the details.

[el_warko he/him]

 If Honor specifically answers Dalinar just once, and never before or again, then that one answer should have Roshar-saving implications.

 

Which is what OP is suggesting.

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

Which is what OP is suggesting.

Exactly. This is pure speculation by the way. I have no evidence to back it up. Just raising an interesting possibility that perhaps Dalinar's conclusion that it was all completely random might not have been entirely correct.

[kaellok he/him]

Which is what OP is suggesting.

 

WoR spoilers contained within:

 

Nothing we've seen in WoK or WoR easily lend themselves to the conclusion that Kaladin needs to be in the position he is in to save Roshar.  The best that can be said is that Kaladin stops the Assassin in White from killing Dalinar in the palace/keep thing.  Without Kaladin's warning, no one would have been prepared, and it's quite possible that Adolin would have survived.

 

The Kholinar armies would be largely in-tact, instead of at roughly 30% strength.  Adolin in charge would be a very capable leader, even if lacking in the brilliance and experience of Dalinar (we get to see that he follows from lessons learned from Dalinar in battle, and that he's capable of seeing/acting on his own as well.)  Needing to have something more to offer Adolin to cement a marriage alliance, Shallan could do a better job of helping him with the other High Princes using Jasnah's notes.  The other High Princes may also be in a somewhat shocked position of wanting to renew the attack against the Parshendi; the Assassin in White is what started their war in the first place, and if he's come back to kill High Princes, then they'll want to deal with that threat with an Army. The clock was already ticking down, with Dalinar contributing little to determining what/why, and hell, with Adolin in charge, maybe Renarin would have been comfortable enough to tell him what was going on.  

 

Why didn't Honor go with that plan?  Preventing the Everstorm at all seems to be much more beneficial than having a Bondsmith in a position of power.  In a game of chess, it would be like sacrificing a Bishop to take the opponent's Queen.  And this alternate possibility of mine seems quite plausible to me only if Dalinar doesn't trust Sadeas.   

 

There is no doubting Dalinar's importance, but he is not singularly important, unique, or irreplaceable in the fight against Odium--based on the first two books.  Later evidence may clearly show how very important he is to the overall effort, and without whom all would collapse and fail even if the enemy didn't have the Everstorm.  Of course, like viewing any future, there's approximately ten thousand things that I've ignored that I could address, and a billion that I have no knowledge of at all.  

 

Honestly though, right now, I'm just not seeing anything to make the justification to support this is the case.  How is the one decision to answer one question in one potential future that is by no means assured so integral to saving Roshar from Odium?

Edited September 11, 2014 by kaellok

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I'm not saying that Dalinar is singularly important to saving Roshar. Where did you get that from the OP? I'm saying one of the few moments of clarity Honour got in his visions of the future was an unclear question about whether or not to trust and that, being Honour, he could not answer other than in the affirmative. That's it. That's all I'm saying.

[Topomouse he/him]

But in the second possibility you wrote in the OP you said Kaladin was, that uniting him and Dalinar was important.

 

Anyway, what I (and many others it seems) am skeptic about is the fact that Honor could have seen the future in such details, which is a prerequisite for both of the possibilities you outline in your post.

Now, it's possible that as you say now that was a brief moment of clarity on Honor's part, but it seems a odd. It's such a little detail whose consequences depend on the actions of many different people that it could have happened in many different ways, so it seems unlikely that it was a tentative from Honor to guide Dalinar through a determinate path. Especially since the vision could have been received by someone else entirely instead of Dalinar.

For the same reasons, I highly doubt about the other possibility, him encouraging trust since he can't do anything else. This one is even more unlikely because from a storytelling point of view it's just strange to bring in precognition and what not just to show a minor point about a character.

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I was starting with the premise of the theory that he did answer this one question, then posited two possibilities as to WHY he answered the question.

 

I guess I had a very different idea of what not being good at seeing the future meant than most readers. To me, this meant that he got flashes of clear images, but not in any sane or controlled way. The further he looked, the more disjointed these images got. Each was still clear, but more and more context was missing. It seems that most other readers have interpreted not being good at seeing the future as it getting generally blurry until it couldn't be read at all. My theory was based on my own interpretation of dwindling future-sight and the premise that this question of Dalinar's was one such "moment of clarity", albeit absent any real context. Basically I was asking if people believed that Honour had any context about Sadeas or not. Clearly however, this interpretation is not shared by most of the community.

[kaellok he/him]

First, my previous post was a direct refutation of your second point, that bringing Kaladin and Dalinar together is of the utmost importance.  I don't see it, and you haven't really explained why or how it's so important.

 

Second, if the question is asked without any context, then how can Honor know which way to answer?  Especially one as vague as that about trust?  What if Dalinar was asking if he could trust Sadeas to pay him back for that time they ordered pizza?  Was Honor answering in the affirmative just because he clearly saw/heard something regarding trust?  Does that mean that if Dalinar were asking if he could trust that Adolin would mature a bit and stick to courting just one girl, Honor would have also answered yes?

 

Neither of the base premises you've offered really seem to be supported by the events we have seen so far.  It could be rather neat if they were.  One of my favorite Dr. Who episodes has a scene where the Tenth Doctor (Tenant) answers questions from the future, recorded on a DVD, to someone in the past (episode titled Blink).  So, while I agree that the concept has a lot of potential to be quite interesting or awesome, I just don't see anything to support that that is what is happening.  If that's your preferred head-canon (something that you believe makes it a better story that may or may not be supported by text) then that's more than fine, and part of the beauty of fans discussing books as well written as these.  Even if we have differing opinions, thoughts, and theories, we still can agree that they're flat-out awesome!

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

That is one thing I think everyone on these forums can agree on. 

[dilburt]

Sadeas is definitely more trustworthy now...      

Edited September 14, 2014 by dilburt