Shard-Complements Theory

[Odium's_Shard]

I hope it comes true, if only so I can, at some point in the far, far far, future, reference the exact post I just made in a randomly off-topic thread entitled 'I told you so!'. But it most likely will not be so. I am never completely right.

[Windrunner]

And you know what? I don't think the planet has as much affect as your making it out to be. I bet that the Planet's responsibility is to provide the focus, the Physical portion of the magic. The Human provides the "trigger", the action that usually causes the magic to manifest itself. The Shard. But I don't think that the planet itself is involved in the flow of power. The focus is involved, but not the planet itself.

Well we basically agree here. I think we both think that the physical aspect of the power is tied to the Shardworld, which makes sense. However the physical part isn't always the focus. I'm curious, what do you think decides what powers are granted, and whether the focus is physical, cognitive, or possibly spiritual, if its not the Shardworld? We know its not the Shard that does it, they just provide the fuel, and the mechanism for how the power is accessed, because of their intent. Do you have any other ideas?

Edited March 10, 2012 by Windrunner

[Odium's_Shard]

I have an idea. It is a basic list for now, as at GMT 0 its getting late. I hope I can add to it later after your feedback, I'll probably catch up on it some point next week.

The Aspects of A Shard Categorized by Realmatic Theory (fancy title, check):

Physical

A Shard is connected to its physical aspect by an adaptation of the conditions of its Shardworld, ie metal, color. Sometimes this can be the Shard, or a simple manifestation of raw power as opposed to 'access points' (ie Preservation: raw power, Well of Ascension (and mists, I guess), access point, Allomancy).

Spiritual

The seat of a Power of a Shard. Completely removed from the Physical, the Spiritual is where the power accessed through things such as the Metallic Arts and Surgebinding begins to trickle from. A focus here gives universal availability to those with the correct sDNA (ie having a Breath).

Cognitive

The bridge between the Physical and the Spiritual. The place (Shadesmar) where the 'command' is given for the access point to pull power through. The Cognitive aspect of Allomancy, for example, is the thought behind 'burning' (somewhat subconscious, but for all we know, the subconsciousness may be the whole of it), and pulls the power from the Spiritual Realm (with aligned sDNA of Mistborn/Misting) with the potential aspect of the focus (metal) and it variation (say, pewter), into a Physical derivation (added strength, healing power, etc).

For Feruchemy, the cycle would be: Physical loss of ability (senses, connection, Investiture) -> Cognitive process of storage -> Spiritual storage. Spiritual store -> Cognitive process of 'tapping' -> Physical manifestation (increased attribute, etc).

For Hemalurgy, it might go: Physical death (loss of life) -> Cognitive: potential of (pull of power by) the metal -> (WOG) Spiritual: 'stolen' attribute latches onto the sDNA of the spike. (odd cycle: next stage is transfer of power) Physical piercing -> Cognitive pull of the metal (this is a very exhaustive reasoning) -> Spiritual attribute 'sDNA' swap (metal -> creature).

As I said, needs refining.

[Kaurne]

Can we apply that to Surgebinding?

Physical actions in accordance with Honor (protecting people, in Kaladin's case) -> Cognitive link (acceptance of Honor, devotion to ideals, maybe even oaths?) -> Spiritual access of Honor's power -> Cognitive use of Will to Surgebind (subconscious or conscious utterance of oaths?) -> physical effect (Lashings etc)

The cognitive aspect seems to be the weak link in the chain here... although that may be because we don't know enough about how Surgebinding works.

Wait a second. Honor is dead. Or rather, Tanavast is. But let's think about that for a second. He can't be dead in the spiritual sense, because the Shards are fundamental forces of the universe. His physical body is almost certainly still around - it may even be Stormlight. So what is the bit that is dead? His mind. The mind of the human (we think) Tanavast, was the part conclusively destroyed by Odium. So maybe there is a bit of uncertainty about the Cognitive part of the Surgebinding chain because Honor currently lacks a cognitive aspect. Though that does raise the question of what Surgebinding would be like if Honor got another cognitive aspect again. Would it be more defined? Would it be easier to access? Would it be easier to make the links between Honorable actions and the spiritual power of honor, so more people understand about the importance of Honor? Hey, maybe the reason the world of Roshar is so violent is because the cognitive aspect of Odium is still pervading the minds of people, while Honor doesn't have a cognitive aspect to counter his influence, Yin and Yang style.

But now I'm getting off topic...

[Odium's_Shard]

Honor, the Shard, still, and will always, exist. Tanavast, the Bearer, is dead.

But I always thought Surgebinding might go:

Transformation Surge:

Physical touch of the object -> Cognitive interference in Shadesmar (plea of the object to 'free' it) -> Spiritual Essence (seat of Honor's power) -> Cognitive 'freeing' of the object (altering it) -> Physical rendition (goblet -> blood).

Of course, you'll all just start going: 'B-but Jasnah can S-Soulcast from a distance'. To which I say, I have no answer for. It has been theorized that it may be something to do with a 'Travel' Surge. Or maybe she was still technically 'touching' the thief through the rock. Because, y'know, rock is sacred and stuff. /rambling

Lashings:

Physical Touch (touch seems to be important) -> Cognitive will of Stormlight into object (or close of eye -> suspension of belief, if Goradel's Nephew is to be believed in this post) -> Spiritual pull of power -> Cognitive thought of Lashing to use/ Stormlight's use (Full, Reverse, Basic, etc) (?)-> Physical rendition (man -> ceiling) .

Hope it helped.

[Windrunner]

Another thing to remember is that Preservation had no holder, several times in fact. Nothing funny happened with Allomancy, so I don't think anything would change with Surgebinding either.

[Aradel]

Kelsier grabbed the shard after Lerasi died. If he hadn't ruin might have had more influence than he did. So we haven't seen a whole lot of "downtime" as far as allomancy goes. It ran well enough with Leras's cognitive presence diminished if that's what you meant.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[Aradel]

I had a sudden thought. Brandon hasn't been very forthcoming with what being a splinter entails. (A splinter is someone who has heald a significant portion of a shard, large enough to make an unexplained permanent change in them)

I've also been wondering how and if allomancy can work on other worlds when Preservation is still on Scadrial.

My raw theory is this, an allomancer who worldhops will have a significant decrease in power due to enormous physical distance. A sliver of preservation, having a much deeper connection with the shard would suffer less decrease or no change in power at all.

Is there anything we know that might contradict this?

[Aeshdan]

However, one thing bugs me about the entire thing that I can't get a handle on. What happens to the 'mystical number'? I don't know what it is for Nalthis/Endowment. But for Scadrial/Harmony it is 16. How would they combine? Would it be averaged, so (say Endowment's number is 10), Endowment lands on Scadrial, new magic system thrown up operates around ([16+10]/2)= 13.

Any thoughts? I'd appreciate them.

EDIT: Needs improvement, at some point.

16 and 10 have something to do with Adonalsium. So i don't think a magic system will have any theme other than those. My guess is that complementary pairs produce a "16" system, while a Shard with no available complements will produce a "10" system.

[Windrunner]

Well there were at least one, possibly two points where Preservation had no holder. We have no knowledge of how long it took Kelsier to take up Preservation after Leras died, so there could have been a gap there. There was also the brief time between Vin's death and Sazed's Ascension. Granted they were both fairly brief, but there was no mention of Allomancy changing at all. Also AonDor, and DakhorDor, presumably work in the same ways they once did, even though both Shards are not only dead but Splintered. This isn't fact though, just presumed from the fact that the carvings of Aons in Elantris worked until the Reod. I really don't think a Shard not having a holder changes how a magic system works.

Also, about your Sliver Theory. I'm not entirely sure I buy it for a couple reasons. One is that I'm not sure that being a Sliver increases your connection to a Shard. It seems like it should, but in Allomancy your power level is directly related to your connection to a Shard. Vin becomes a Sliver, but it does not increase her Allomantic strength as it should if her connection to Preservation has increased. She is still much weaker then Elend. Do you have a quote where Brandon contradicts this?

Another potential problem is that I don't think that Allomancy works in the same way AonDor does. AonDor isn't tied to the land any more then Allomancy is, they just have inherently weak powers, probably as check on their limitless abilities. The reason AonDor is more powerful is Elantris, which presumably boosts the Spiritual aspects of the Elantrians, allowing them to channel more Dor through the Aons. The booster acts like a radio tower the Elantrians can pick up on, the closer they are the easier it gets. Since Allomancy has no power booster similar to Elantris, I don't think moving away from Scadrial would decrease their power at all. They probably would still just draw it through that little piece of Preservation that fuels their life, regardless of location. Does this make any sense?

[Zas678]

Well there were at least one, possibly two points where Preservation had no holder. We have no knowledge of how long it took Kelsier to take up Preservation after Leras died, so there could have been a gap there. There was also the brief time between Vin's death and Sazed's Ascension. Granted they were both fairly brief, but there was no mention of Allomancy changing at all. Also AonDor, and DakhorDor, presumably work in the same ways they once did, even though both Shards are not only dead but Splintered. This isn't fact though, just presumed from the fact that the carvings of Aons in Elantris worked until the Reod. I really don't think a Shard not having a holder changes how a magic system works.

I agree that a Shard without a person directing it probably doesn't change the magic system. However, I believe that the gap in between Vin's death and Sazed's Ascension is too brief to count. As for Kelsier...

TWG HoA

FIRSTRAINBOWROSE (17 OCTOBER 2008)

I just wanted to add in my two cents and say it was absolutely brilliant... and I think I'm starting to be able to breath again (crying that much hurts)...I also really loved that there's an "cameo" for Kelsier at the end... that made me really happy to see.

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Glad you liked the book, Rainbow!

You may want to note that the moment Preservation dropped out and let the last of his consciousness die, someone was waiting in the Cognitive Realm to seize the power and hold on for a short period until Vin could take it up more fully. You'll find him using it to whisper in moments of great stress in the book, to one person in specific in two places. (I'll bet someone on here has already found them.)

He never could just let things well enough alone....

FOOTNOTE

The person Brandon mentions is Spook. After the spike is removed, Kelsier prompts him to send the letter to Vin, and then prompts him to send people underground.

So I don't think we've ever seen a functional Shard without an intelligence guiding it. Odium completely broke Devotion and Dominion. In the Letter from WoK, it says " In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse. "

So Devotion and Dominion aren't just shards without a person guiding them- it seems like it is no longer possible to have a person guiding them. Maybe the fact that there wasn't a person guiding them is why the AonDor "broke" when the Land broke.

Also, about your Sliver Theory. I'm not entirely sure I buy it for a couple reasons. One is that I'm not sure that being a Sliver increases your connection to a Shard. It seems like it should, but in Allomancy your power level is directly related to your connection to a Shard. Vin becomes a Sliver, but it does not increase her Allomantic strength as it should if her connection to Preservation has increased. She is still much weaker then Elend. Do you have a quote where Brandon contradicts this?

You still have a little bit of Preservation in you, but not necessarily in the allomantic way. Indeed, this may be why the Lord Ruler acted so much on Preservation's principles (thousand year empire, no change in leader, no change in land, economy, or technology). And Vin doesn't seem to want to battle as much after going through the Well. This is probably overshadowed by what she went through in WoA, but I think it's still there.

If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver.When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

Plus, Sazed(?) mentions it being an "attuning force", meant to help get one closer so that Vin could fully take the mists.

Since Allomancy has no power booster similar to Elantris, I don't think moving away from Scadrial would decrease their power at all. They probably would still just draw it through that little piece of Preservation that fuels their life, regardless of location. Does this make any sense?

It does. And I agree. And I also think that after being outside the "Elantris Effect" range, I bet that it stays the same. What is the Elantris Effect?

Barnes and Nobles Q&A

ZAS678

What is the X in Aon Mea? Is it one of the Shard-pools?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Afraid not. Aon Mea references the expanded region within which the "Elantris Effect" will create Elantrians. The X is fertile valley with a high density of life, a place with a lot of cognitive activity. (Cognitive as defined by Realmatic Theory includes the 'thoughts' of all things that exist, not just human beings. The more complex the life form, the stronger its presence on the Cognitive Realm.)

I'm betting that the Aons are just as effective a million miles away from Sel as they are just outside of the Elantris Effect zone.

EDIT- But I believe the same things you do- just for different reasons.

[Dros]

Well we basically agree here. I think we both think that the physical aspect of the power is tied to the Shardworld, which makes sense. However the physical part isn't always the focus. I'm curious, what do you think decides what powers are granted, and whether the focus is physical, cognitive, or possibly spiritual, if its not the Shardworld? We know its not the Shard that does it, they just provide the fuel, and the mechanism for how the power is accessed, because of their intent. Do you have any other ideas?

Didn't BS say magic systems were human's interpretation of the Power of Creation as "funnelled" through the Shards? So perhaps the focus of a particular planet was not the Shard's choice, but just how human's on that particular planet learned how to use the Power of Creation.

[Aeshdan]

Another potential problem is that I don't think that Allomancy works in the same way AonDor does. AonDor isn't tied to the land any more then Allomancy is, they just have inherently weak powers, probably as check on their limitless abilities. The reason AonDor is more powerful is Elantris, which presumably boosts the Spiritual aspects of the Elantrians, allowing them to channel more Dor through the Aons. The booster acts like a radio tower the Elantrians can pick up on, the closer they are the easier it gets.

I've been trying to point this out for a while. +1!

[Windrunner]

Thank you Reader!

Didn't BS say magic systems were human's interpretation of the Power of Creation as "funnelled" through the Shards? So perhaps the focus of a particular planet was not the Shard's choice, but just how human's on that particular planet learned how to use the Power of Creation.

I'm not sure I understand what your saying here. Do you think that humans choose a specific focus? Because I'm pretty sure Brandon has said that, at least in Allomancy, the power is hardwired into your sDNA, which I'm pretty sure means that they can't choose to use something else as the physical/focus component of the magic. Did I misinterpret what you were saying? Anyway one quote relevant to your question is here.

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Hero of Ages Q&A 2

[Zas678]

There's a recent Power of Creation quote that makes that position stronger. Let me see if I can find it.

EDIT- well, there's this one:

Norway Signing

THORONDIR

Is the Dor the same as the power of creation that powers Allomancy?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He said that the Dor is similar to that which powers allomancy but not 100% the same.

Here it is, it's the Open The Fridge interview

BRANDON SANDERSON

One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

<snip>

But Chaos does have a rebuttal to the idea of a single consolidated Power of Creation. He believes that the Power of Creation is just another word for the power that the Shards hold. If he wants to say more about it he can.

[Windrunner]

Something cool and semi-related to how the powers work. Today in chemistry my teacher mentioned that the second law of nature is that form dictates function. Which seemed awesomely cosmerey to me. The molecular structure of the metals and Aons dictates what the function the power drawn through them provides. Both are form based. I wonder if thinking commands gives them some sort of cognitive form going on, that dictates what the Breath does. It makes me wonder if Investiture can be divided up into Physical Form based and Cognitive form based. Perhaps spiritual form as well. If only we could come to some consensus on what Surgebinding's focus is.

[Odium's_Shard]

It is my belief that all Power of Creation, as BS puts it in Zas' interview, is seated in a Spiritual domain, as is the fractured power of all independent Shards.

And so, the Spiritual domain has two keys (for the sake of this argument, don't take this literally and flame it). One is, the code of the focus you are attempting to use (because it is agreed that the focus must be present in all acts of magic). For example, the molecular structure of the metal tells the Spiritual domain something (like the troughs and points on a key) and it frees the appropriate power.

Next, Cognitively, you will the power into you. This previously required some Physical action (ingestion, touch, closing the eyes, drawing the Aon, etc). Except, the power of the metal, say, doesn't just flow into anyone. Here comes in your sDNA. Your sDNA is another, second, code that makes sure you are at liberty to use the funnel of power the metal has triggered. Say you are attempting to burn pewter. You Physically ate it, Cognitively gave the command to burn, Spiritually invoke the power (and are checked at these two locks) Cognitively use the power (in practice, ie, Push here) and then are Physically altered (stronger, faster healing rate, resistance to alcohol, etc).

So Investiture, as in the Power of Creation in mortal form, can only be accessed in these two ways (structure/code of focus variation (ie pewter is a variant of metal) used, code of sDNA), and this makes sense by everything we know.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Dros]

Thank you Reader!

I'm not sure I understand what your saying here. Do you think that humans choose a specific focus? Because I'm pretty sure Brandon has said that, at least in Allomancy, the power is hardwired into your sDNA, which I'm pretty sure means that they can't choose to use something else as the physical/focus component of the magic. Did I misinterpret what you were saying? Anyway one quote relevant to your question is here.

I'm somewhat saying that. My point was if someone from Roshar went to Sel, their interpretation of the magic system output there might be different than the natives. Their focus might indeed be different because their DNA and Realmatic interaction is different than a native.