Ars Arcanum 2.0

[Odium's_Shard]

The epigraph is correct when it states that this sample is of particular note. It is a clear link to the truthspren and also actively corrects your (or someone else's, apologies for the mindlapse) theory that they are Guardians. Surely if a dying chull-trainer can perceive the symbolspren, then any and all who wish to gain access may be appropriately allowed. Perhaps what attracted them was that he was indeed prone to 'honesty' as opposed to having the potential to give a great 'truth'.

This lead me to form this theory, and off the back of yours too, Telcontar. Please help to correct me!

Ok, so my perception of the symbolsprens Intent is as follows. Symbolspren are known to have been near people, according by one of three (mutual) things.

1. The potential to hold great knowledge/ perform great feats
   
2. The grasp of a tantamount secret
   
3. Having followed the path of honesty
   

This make me refer to the truthspren (symbolspren, a less common name)as almost scavengers of knowledge. They can perceive if one is in the line of business as to receive a secret, holds a secret and lies about it, or is prone to being honest with all information they handle.

However, this is not what I feel symbolspren are attracted by. Telcontar said that the spren (shorthand) were attracted to the dying chull trainer in the epigraph. It is my belief that it is because he is dying that he was able to see the symbolspren, similarly to how they can perceive the samples that Taravangian takes from them, because dying people momentarily have access to all three planes.

This makes sense, because the chull trainer (the mundane job inferring that there is nothing special about him) was all at once able to see through the Physical, as everyone else can, in order to perceive the 'healer' that he mentions. He earns a glance at the Spiritual, in order to witness the symbolspren that was attracted to the 'healer'. And yet he gives a clear link to the Cognitive (Shadesmar) when he talks about a 'sun in a black sky', as we know Shadesmar to also have.

This is my theory about the dying over. Now onto the reason symbolspren are attracted.

I believe it is through either being greatly Learned (primary attribute of Palah) or greatly Creative (primary attribute of Shash). This forms the initial bond, or interest. Now, Shallan does not appear to be 'bonded' to the spren, but, correct me if I'm wrong, she is because the one spren follows her around ever since the 'incident' with the vase and the blood. It is the only one she sees whenever she Sketches from that point onwards. Clearly, the moment the sympolspren because first attracted to her was during her work on the portrait of Taravangian, in which she describes intense bursts of creativity, saying it is her greater piece.

And we see that Jasnah is sought out by the symbolspren by her Learned attribute. This alludes to Telcontar mentioning she learned Soulcasting out of a book, but either way, nobody can dispute that she is rightly Learned.

Now I believe that the Surge is activated by the secondary attribute, while the Nahel bond is activated by the primary. This is clear when we see Syl being attracted to Kaladin while he first protects Tien, and then his Squad in the Alethi Army, followed by Bridge Four. This maintains the bond. However, it is when he leads Bridge Four, when he is at the head of the bridge, or leading the charge, that his Surges activate.

Similarly for Jasnah or Shallan. Transformation (and thus Shadesmar access) becomes available when the Give, or when Shallan tells the Truth. Now, in this instance, it reinforces the links between Order 5 and Order 6 as the Soulcasting Orders, because the act of Giving a Truth and Truly Giving seem synonymous with each other, and so Jasnah recognises the process Shallan uses to enter Shadesmar. However, Jasnah's may vary, as in she may be able to give items of note, were Shallan can give only truth.

This is my theory. Feel free to comment, and please do respond and criticize.

Odium's_Shard

[Telcontar]

As you helped developping my theory (if only by pointing out flaws), you deserve of course a proper response. I saw that you also posted it over on General theories, for my response I'd rather stay here because my response will of course be influenced by my interpretation of symbolheads.

I'll use the term "Investiture-spren" to refer to the spren forming the initial bond which gives a person magical abilities.

I agree with you about the sample is of particular note. My first question however was: of particular note to whom? As Taravangian is collecting the samples the obvious answer would be: to him. We don't know who is going through the samples of course, but I believe it will be Taravangian himself, as he seems to have an understanding of what is happening on Roshar. If it's some servant of his, that that one will need to have acces to Taravangian's knowledge to be able to register the samples good enough.

So, if the sample is of particular note to Taravangian, then he should at least have some perception of what symbolheads and the description of Shadesmar mean. Either by having seen it himself (1) or by having found out thanks to his Palaneum (2). Appearently knowledge of Shadesmar is not restricted on Roshar, so there should be books about it.

(1) If he has indeed seen symbolheads and Shadesmar himself, then there is even more to him than we thought.

(2) then he was just looking out for references to Shadesmar.

Further interpretation of the epigraph. I believe that the chull trainer actually was talking to the healer who was talking his blood. Then seeing a symbolhead because he was dying. In that I agree with you, Odium. The phrase "I'm dying" could be the truth permitting him to see Shadesmar.

If you understood my statement the way that I said, the chull trainer attracted it, then I didn't phrase it good enough. My intention was to show that he SAW a symbolhead. Not necessarily that he attracted it. That maybe they are indeed around everywhere, like I theorized.

Ok, so my perception of the symbolsprens Intent is as follows. Symbolspren are known to have been near people, according by one of three (mutual) things.

1. The potential to hold great knowledge/ perform great feats
   
2. The grasp of a tantamount secret
   
3. Having followed the path of honesty
   

I don't agree, but you could have guessed that before In WoK so far we have met only three people who have perceived the symbolheads in a visual way. Shallan through her Memories, the dying chull-trainer and Elhokar in the mirror.

We don't know about nr.1 concerning the chull-trainer, the great knowledge part of Elhokar has to be proven. As a king he is likely to have the potential to perform great feats but for now he is a pretty weak king, whatever Dalinar says.

About the secrets, again, we only know about Shallan.

As to nr.3 I still don't see where Shallan followed the path of honesty. Elhokar does not appear to be known for honesty. and the chull-trainer, he proves nothing, in either way.

The only other person, symbolheads have been sneaking up to, could be Taravangian. He surely fits nr.1 and 2. But not nr.3.

I don't see any common base for those 3 or 4 permitting to say how we are going to find symbolheads around people.

This make me refer to the truthspren (symbolspren, a less common name)as almost scavengers of knowledge. They can perceive if one is in the line of business as to receive a secret, holds a secret and lies about it, or is prone to being honest with all information they handle.

I have problems to spren being able to perceive secrets. Spren are attracted to how one acts. They are also attracted by changes which can be perceived by others. And finally they are attracted to emotions. But one also could say that even emotions get to the outside, showing in your face and posture and your smell.

Do you have an example maybe proving me wrong? I'm not very learned yet in general spren-theory.

Now onto the reason symbolspren are attracted.

I believe it is through either being greatly Learned (primary attribute of Palah) or greatly Creative (primary attribute of Shash). This forms the initial bond, or interest. Now, Shallan does not appear to be 'bonded' to the spren, but, correct me if I'm wrong, she is because the one spren follows her around ever since the 'incident' with the vase and the blood. It is the only one she sees whenever she Sketches from that point onwards. Clearly, the moment the sympolspren because first attracted to her was during her work on the portrait of Taravangian, in which she describes intense bursts of creativity, saying it is her greater piece.

When Shallan was in the hospit she saw more than one symbolspren, waiting in the corners.

paperback, pg.1208

She passed several pictures of the symbol-headed creatures, some set in this very room. They lurked around her, always.

If a symbolhead is a spren with potential to form the "Investiture-bond" (independent of which ideal attracts it) so why are they always around, more than one? I understand the "Investiture-bond" as a bond between one single spren with a single person. The person gaining abilities, the spren gaining sentience.

If we say that the symbolhead who "bonded" with Shallan at the end while confronting Jasnah is her "Investiture-spren" then why was it sentient before?

And we see that Jasnah is sought out by the symbolspren by her Learned attribute. This alludes to Telcontar mentioning she learned Soulcasting out of a book, but either way, nobody can dispute that she is rightly Learned.

Yes, she is probably the most learned person on Roshar. However, we have no confirmation that Jasnah is sought out by symbolheads. She didn't even know the symbolheads by sight.

paperback pg.1224

"Do you see them too? How are they related?"

Jasnah frowned, taking the image. "You see beings like this? in Shadesmar?"

"They appear in my drawings," Shallan said. "They're around me, Jasnah. You don't see them? Am I-"

Jasnah held up a hand. "These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do. [...] Two orders of the KR possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; [...] I had assumed that you... But no, that obviously wouldn't make sense. I see now."

While this dialogue is pretty mysterious, I think it shows us, that Jasnah knew about symbolheads but has not seen one herself.

If Jasnah is sought out by symbolheads because she is learned, AND Shallan is sought out because she is creative, then according to your theory (if I understand it right), symbolheads are "Investiture-spren" for at least two orders. I have problems with that:

Either every "Investiture-spren" is honorspren like Syl, or each order has a different one. But one spren for two orders...

If symbolheads are related to Surgebinding (and not just to Shadesmar as in my theory), then they have something to do with the Surge of Transformation, explaining why people from different, but adjacent orders, make use of them.

Now I believe that the Surge is activated by the secondary attribute, while the Nahel bond is activated by the primary. This is clear when we see Syl being attracted to Kaladin while he first protects Tien, and then his Squad in the Alethi Army, followed by Bridge Four. This maintains the bond. However, it is when he leads Bridge Four, when he is at the head of the bridge, or leading the charge, that his Surges activate.

Similarly for Jasnah or Shallan. Transformation (and thus Shadesmar access) becomes available when the Give, or when Shallan tells the Truth. Now, in this instance, it reinforces the links between Order 5 and Order 6 as the Soulcasting Orders, because the act of Giving a Truth and Truly Giving seem synonymous with each other, and so Jasnah recognises the process Shallan uses to enter Shadesmar. However, Jasnah's may vary, as in she may be able to give items of note, were Shallan can give only truth.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to explain to me further your idea, I don't believe I really get it.

IMO when you first get Invested then you already get access to two Surges. Kaladin used a Full Lashing before he spoke the second oath.

I assume that you speak of the Nahel bond as being the "Investiture-bond". We agree, seemingly, that this bond forms because you attracted a spren by acting according to an ideal/primary attribute. But the whole concept of Investiture is that once you are Invested, you have acces to magic abilites. Maybe you don't know how to use them, but in theory you can tap into the magic. So access to Surges is free once the "Investiture-bond" has formed.

Hope this helps to shape your idea like your comments did to shape mine.

Weird though, that your post convinced me even more about symbolheads being spren who are "always around" and attracted to people who can perceive them. As explained in the beginning of this post, Taravangian obviously has an idea of symbolheads and Shadesmar. So maybe he does not see them, but it is enough, that he is looking for them to attract them.

Another idea. We don't know much about what you can do in Shadesmar. But if you can use it to travel between different worlds, maybe it is also possible to Travel (capital T this time) by going to Shadesmar physically (to Soulcast your body stays in the physical realm) willing yourself to another place, then stepping out of Shadesmar. A concept very much like Travel using Tel'aran'rhiod in WoT. (Which speaks against the idea, because it's just too similar). But then, there would be other orders as well with access to Shadesmar.

As mentioned above, the existence of Shadesmar is no secret on Roshar. Surely because the KR used it and the knowledge has survived until today. Shadesmar probably will have too many functions to be only means of Soulcasting. But then you'll need either symbolheads to acces Shadesmar or another way to access it.

Have fun responding

[Aradel he/him]

What about Shallan changed to attract the symbolheads to her? She's been doing her drawings pretty much her entire life, so creativity can't be the root cause.

Maybe honesty is less about being honest with others, and more about being honest with oneself. When Shallan became Jasnah's ward, she started to change as a person. She started to reject the person she had been taught to be, and became the person she wanted to be. Minus a few bumps on the way, this would have culminated at the "I killed my father" scene.

[Telcontar]

What about Shallan changed to attract the symbolheads to her? She's been doing her drawings pretty much her entire life, so creativity can't be the root cause.

Maybe honesty is less about being honest with others, and more about being honest with oneself. When Shallan became Jasnah's ward, she started to change as a person. She started to reject the person she had been taught to be, and became the person she wanted to be. Minus a few bumps on the way, this would have culminated at the "I killed my father" scene.

Might be me, but I don't really get where you want to go with this.

Appearently change is not what attracts "Investiture-spren" but your actions. If you go with the terminology used by zas in this post, then it's only Everyday-spren that are attracted by change. And I don't think that symbolheads can be qualified as Everyday-spren.

In my opinion, and I believe that Odium's Shard does agree with me by now, it is Shallan's creativity that formed her "Investiture-bond".

About honesty being honest with yourself: it seems to me that on Roshar everything is about actions. Not personal inner conflicts but what you do.

Sorry if I get your post totally wrong.

[Odium's_Shard]

I agree with many points in your post, Telcontar, and so I, too, will grant you a proper answer. Make sure it continues!

I agree with you about the sample is of particular note. My first question however was: of particular note to whom? As Taravangian is collecting the samples the obvious answer would be: to him. We don't know who is going through the samples of course, but I believe it will be Taravangian himself, as he seems to have an understanding of what is happening on Roshar. If it's some servant of his, that that one will need to have acces to Taravangian's knowledge to be able to register the samples good enough.

So, if the sample is of particular note to Taravangian, then he should at least have some perception of what symbolheads and the description of Shadesmar mean. Either by having seen it himself (1) or by having found out thanks to his Palaneum (2). Appearently knowledge of Shadesmar is not restricted on Roshar, so there should be books about it.

(1) If he has indeed seen symbolheads and Shadesmar himself, then there is even more to him than we thought.

(2) then he was just looking out for references to Shadesmar.

The epigraph is one hundred percent linked to Taravangian. If you remember, towards the end of the book when Taravangian takes Seth to see the 'hospital' in which he sort of kills people in order for them to spill these secrets about the world through what I shall coin 'death-perception', he does so by draining their blood. He recalls that a slow death gives better time to record samples. So, the 'healer' he speaks of is clearly Taravangian or one of his assistants, but I believe it to be Taravangian.

This means that the symbolspren is hovering around Taravangian specifically. This means that he knows of Shadesmar, and perhaps of Soulcasting, and even more possible that he knows of Jasnah's/Shallan's inherent Soulcasting ability. So Taravangian knows of Shadesmar, and of the spren that 'guard' it.

I take note of your point that we are unsure as to whether Jasnah also uses symbolspren for her access point, as she seems only to recall their purpose and vague uses. This means either she is unfamiliar with them/ cannot see them as she performs SC (new abbreviation of SoulCasting). The former means that Order 5 (or whatever Jasnah's order turns out to be) doesn't utilise symbolspren.

I also take note of your point that the secondary attribute cannot facilitate the use of the appropriated Surge, but the strengthening of the Nahel bond. I will run with this for now.

I have problems to spren being able to perceive secrets. Spren are attracted to how one acts. They are also attracted by changes which can be perceived by others. And finally they are attracted to emotions. But one also could say that even emotions get to the outside, showing in your face and posture and your smell.

I had a weird feeling that perhaps they could just tell a liar. However I disagree with your point that we can definitely rule out the possibility that Taravangian isn't following the path of honesty in order to attract his symbolspren. I have a feeling we might all be wrong about Taravangian being 'evil'. Brandon has been shown to mess around with our perceptions of 'good' and 'bad' in the Mistborn series, in which Ruin, while continually portrayed as the 'evil' character, turned out to be just as honest and correct in what he does (destroy) as Preservation, and in fact towards the end it looked like what Preservation had done in ordering Ruin's demise was the worst offence.

Perhaps Taravangian is in fact trying to save the world by 'destroying' it, or protecting it from those who would do it most harm (perhaps the corrupt higher-class would be the first to be tainted by Odium) or put them on guard so they are ready to protect their people against the coming Everstorm, the Final Desolation, and that Taravangian is far better informed about EVERYTHING than we previously imagined. Now, onto my own pet theory that spawned from defending myself from your constructive criticism (which I value, please, send more).

Taravangian is behind Shallan's perception of truthspren. That's right. My theory is that Taravangian is linked to Shallan suddenly being able to see/hear/respond to the symbolspren. After all, he was there on the day where she first saw them. Why was she unable to see them before? She had the Memories, took them often, had the creativity, arguably had the honesty (or potential for truth, etc) that we have said should attract swarms of them to her. Why now?

The answer: Taravangian. He gave Shallan access to the Sixth Order, and instead of the evil mastermind is infact: the Leader of the Knights Radiant. Or the giver of their power, etc. He might have given Jasnah her power. Kaladin, Dalinar, all under the thrall of the truest hero of all: the kindly old gentleman who harmlessly sucks the life from innocent, homeless victims to quench his insatiable thirst for knowledge about Realmatic Theory.

Ok, that last statement was melodramatic. But I genuinely have the idea that Taravangian is behind the symbolspren, or at least Shallan's sudden contact with them. It is the only way I can see to explain the strange and sudeen happenings, and why they hadn;'t previously occurred if she did indeed fit the bill before coming into Taravangian's company. And after the first sighting, they suddenly swarm her! Taravangian's fault.

Odium's_Shard

Please help with your feedback!

[Guest Jacob Santos]

I don't think Taravangian thinks he is evil. I think he thinks that he thinks he is evil. He would also not be the first leader who justified the deaths of hundreds of thousands to save millions. It just dawned on me just how many examples there are to prove the previous statement. Lets play a game to see if we can list them all.

I'll give a hint. It is basically every war ever fought, ever.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Jacob Santos

[Telcontar]

It is funny how we agree in some things and are completely off in others

The reason why I didn't put the healer and Taravangian together is because there is no need for Taravangian to have been there himself. Of course the king himself has helped out in his hidden hospital. So it might have been him. But also, it could have been a normal healer.

Then there is much of what you say with which I agree.

Later on, you're talking about Taravangian following the path of honesty. I have a problem in general with the use of the term honesty. Not only in this particular thread though. People only will see someone as honest, if they do interact with that person often enough to figure out that this person is honest when there is a situation one can be honest. Honest is not telling always the truth. I see it more like being sincere. Hiding a truth only makes someone dishonest when asked after the truth. So honesty needs interaction. And for that we just have not seen enough of Taravangian's interactions with people.

And finally there is the thing about honesty being the secondary attribute. Those also are considered as divine. So honesty (as the attribute) would need to be interpreted as an ideal-like something. Well, I'm more babbling than saying anything here.

I also agree with Taravangian not necessarily being an "evil" guy. Even if murdering all those people is not really very nice of him.

But towards the end this gets funnier again

Taravangian being behind Shallan's perception of symbolheads.

Why did Elhokar see them then?

Why didn't Shallan draw them anytime before? There is one thing about her, when she is drawing Taravangian. She doesn't pay attention to what she is drawing. That is very very unusual for her. Of course she does not need to pay attention, but she always does, drinking in the act to relax and all. When she is drawing Taravangian, her mind is completely occupied with other stuff (I don't remember exactly what, something about Jasnah having killed the street-toughs or the stealing of the Soulcaster or Kabsal telling her, he will quit being an ardent for her. All that stuff).

Later she only draws symbolheads when not paying attention to her drawing. When she tries to draw them intentionally she takes a Memory, then draws without watching.

It is not that hard to assume that she never drew without paying attention before. It's the first time she gets in a real internal conflict (stealing when she likes Jasnah, having to leave when she loves to study). Before her life had always been simple, everyday-routine. And when she killed her father that did not leave an internal conflict.

The thing about her only drawing them when not paying attention indicates that she perceives the symbolhead through her sub-conscience, that being also where she stores her Memories. Also spren are cognitive aspects of things, Shadesmar is the cognitive realm. Maybe the cognitive aspect of a person is that sub-conscience. This needs further investigation.

Anyway, that's the reason why she never saw smybolheads before.

Edit: I forgot one related thought:

the pre-death-quotes started about when Gavilar first explored the Shattered Plains, thus also being the time he first time he crossed the Parshendi. I always thought that the Parshendi came out of their hiding place at the SP at that particular moment (after hiding for centuries or millenaires) for a reason. If it's that they saw the Everstorm approaching, that would at least give a hint of why the pre-death-quotes started. An event announcing the Everstorm, having an impact on the coginitive or spiritual part of people.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Telcontar

[Aeshdan he/him]

I don't think Taravangian thinks he is evil. I think he thinks that he thinks he is evil. He would also not be the first leader who justified the deaths of hundreds of thousands to save millions. It just dawned on me just how many examples there are to prove the previous statement. Lets play a game to see if we can list them all.

I'll give a hint. It is basically every war ever fought, ever.

And, as you just pointed out, the leaders are often right. I don't think Tavarangian is right in his calculations, but he would be justified if he were.

[Aiken Frost he/him]

Ok, I didn't read the entire topic yet, sorry. But this just jump me while I was reading the first message:

Following this logic, Stonewardens would appear to be able to do something related to stone. I believe Satsuoni came up with the idea that Travel functions via stone.

Maybe they Travel through Ley lines? There is a RPG setting called Iron Kingdoms. In this setting, traditional Teleportation magic like seem in D&D is highly dangerous because it attracts Infernals, so the druids meld with Ley lines and travel as energy to get to distant places. Maybe the Stonewardens work in a similar way in Roshar, what you think?

[Telcontar]

Ok, I didn't read the entire topic yet, sorry. But this just jump me while I was reading the first message:

Maybe they Travel through Ley lines? There is a RPG setting called Iron Kingdoms. In this setting, traditional Teleportation magic like seem in D&D is highly dangerous because it attracts Infernals, so the druids meld with Ley lines and travel as energy to get to distant places. Maybe the Stonewardens work in a similar way in Roshar, what you think?

It has grown pretty long, you'll be forgiven for not having read our (essentially Odium's Shard and my) fantastic theories.

I have not really thought about Travel through stones. As I said, it appearently was Satsuoni's idea. I only cited it because I like the logic in his posts in general. Would be interesting to know why has come up with that idea. Maybe just because the woman arrived and she probably is a Stonewarden, therefore connecting her arrival to stone... I don't know, sorry.

What are Ley lines? (I'm no native speaker)

[Odium's_Shard]

They are lines caused when rock formations are pressured and crushed together into vertical rock folds, the 'ley lines' are the seams.

/geography

In some settings, the are the edges of small village areas (if you live in England, like 'boroughs', if in America/elsewhere, I don't know what you guys have for that... like a large district, I guess), and the area would be controlled by a manor house and the land owning Lord there. His 'hold' would be known as his 'ley' and the lines would have marked the edges of his territory.

/history

However, in some traditions, such as druidism, paganism, etc., 'Ley lines' were paths of spiritual energy in nature, that could be 'tapped', like in Aiken's Iron Kingdoms for Travel, or set up as warning lines, etc. Basically paths (like string) of spiritual connectivity.

/religious-contextual-study

However, onto the main part of my post.

Why did Elhokar see them then?

Of course I'll just pin it on Taravangian, but I feel that that would be beyond his power, if not something he might attempt (I don't think he controls symbolspren, just influences them in some way...). Elhokar may just be particularly gifted in this sense, or they might not be what we know as 'symbolspren', but as Nahel spren of a different order. I think 'careful' (cautious) is a trait he is particularly inclined in, but Wise doesn't match the young King.

Later she only draws symbolheads when not paying attention to her drawing. When she tries to draw them intentionally she takes a Memory, then draws without watching.

*Emphasis mine

This is really important for me. It has been linked with Surgebinding (at least Lashings) in this post, and I thing you really should read up on it, because for me it really highlights what you are saying. Your point could also be tangible evidence you could add to help the guys on the thread out.

But, in short, the post I linked states: Szeth and Kaladin blink during Lashings. The original theorizer thought this may have to do with a necessity to maintain suspension of disbelief in reality, and thus gain a mild belief in the more mystical properties of the Surgebinding they perform. This might linked with Shallan being able to perceive symbolspren without 'trying' to perceive them. Akin to the saying I find in many fantasy books during the teaching of magics (namely: The Fifth Sorceress) 'let it come to you' and 'think without thinking', for magic surely cannot be a logical (scientific) process.

Also spren are cognitive aspects of things, Shadesmar is the cognitive realm. Maybe the cognitive aspect of a person is that sub-conscience. This needs further investigation.

I'll get back to you on this with its own separate post later, most likely this weekend. I can feel the theory sort of forming right now, but I need to give it proper shape before pitching it.

I don't think Taravangian thinks he is evil. I think he thinks that he thinks he is evil. He would also not be the first leader who justified the deaths of hundreds of thousands to save millions. It just dawned on me just how many examples there are to prove the previous statement. Lets play a game to see if we can list them all.

Not only justifies, but would be right in his justification. If his ploys truly are the savior of Roshar, nobody will complain about all the deaths that he will have 'tucked under the carpet' so to speak.

/rambling

Edited March 10, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Connerjade]

Answering how Taravangian may have influenced the SymbolSpren's bonding to Shallan. I am increasingly becoming convinced that as a general rule, Investiture-Spren follow certain families/bloodlines, probably because they are likely confirmed sources of honor. Much how a Mad Seon in Elantris would go crazy but stay generally near the family's domain (when their person was taken by the Sheod), I think Investiture-Spren essentially did that when the bonds were all dropped (regardless of the mechanism that the Recreance took place through). Jasnah, Elhokar, and Dalinar, are all part of the same family, so they were already being "evaluated" when they become what a spren was looking for. I am of the opinion that Taravangian is probably a second bloodline that is normally followed. Shallan on the other hand, might not be, however, when she was creatively drawing an honest portrait of Taravangian, Taravangian's spren put her under surveillance. From that point on, she has a spren following her because she is now a confirmed candidate. I discuss the bloodline thing here.

Side Note on Elhokar: I have the feeling that he will be in Order 3. For the majority of The Way of Kings, Dalinar was not resolute. He was wavering, wondering what he should do, how it would be perceived. He was a builder, we saw that immediately in the way that he had built his army, but the second item was something that he had to work on, it was an attribute that caused conflict within the character to make him his ideal self. Elhokar is currently obediant. He constantly seems to be looking around, trying to get someone to tell him what he is supposed to do, which at times is hard for him because he is supposed to be king and kings should be independent. And Elhokar is brave, Dalinar notes this at least once when thinking of him. Elhokar is a brave man who can't understand why no one even acknowledges the perceived threats that he sees.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Connerjade

[Odium's_Shard]

I am increasingly becoming convinced that as a general rule, Investiture-Spren follow certain families/bloodlines, probably because they are likely confirmed sources of honor.

Brandon mentioned somewhere that, because things like Allomancy and Feruchemy are genetic, there was a way of telling whether somebody was Allomantically viable: its called their 'Spiritual DNA', often referred to as 'sDNA', and things such as Lerasium and its alloys can 'alter' it in order to give you the power of a Mistborn/specific Misting. Its all written there in your sDNA.

The interesting thing about the Nahel bond is, because it isn't genetic, it is hard to put a pin on the necessity of your 'sDNA' in this environment. Most people agree that forming a Nahel bond in some way updates your sDNA in order to give you access to the power of Surgebinding sat in the Spiritual Realm. The Oaths may create more openings, if we are thinking of sDNA as similar to a 'door' from your Cognitive to the Spiritual, and 'allows' certain powers through depending on the configuration.

However, your point about the spren perhaps observing people of certain bloodlines is interesting. Perhaps on Roshar, if your father was an honorable person, it is in your DNA, or perhaps your sDNA to follow in his footsteps, thus becoming a likely candidate for the other spren. But I feel in this example, it is less likely that it is ingrained into you, or part of any aspect of your DNA, whether pDNA or sDNA, I feel that instead it is ingrained into a completely out of the box, new idea, Cognitive DNA. This is less of a thing that you inherit than something you obtain throughout life. However, if your father was a 'creative' person, surely it is more likely that, having watched him while growing up, and having spoken to him, perhaps being guided through engaging in 'creative' acts by him, that you will grow up to be a 'creative' person also? Simply because of the environment surrounding your upbringing.

Thus, Cognitive DNA. Your mindset, your emotional package/rationale. You personality. This is what I believe Nahel spren look for, whereas metals look for sDNA, and perhaps Breath just focuses on pDNA, meaning that everyone can access the Breath, because everyone has a similar Physical manifestation.

Just a thought.

[Satsuoni he/him]

I have not really thought about Travel through stones. As I said, it appearently was Satsuoni's idea. I only cited it because I like the logic in his posts in general. Would be interesting to know why has come up with that idea. Maybe just because the woman arrived and she probably is a Stonewarden, therefore connecting her arrival to stone... I don't know, sorry.

Well, several reasons, many of which have been already mentioned in the threads, including this one. The first that she somehow appears without being seen, and if we accept that plate corresponds to KR order, that she was Stonewarden. Next was the mention of the protruding rock:

He spun, picking out the dark patches ahead. He cursed, looking around. “There,” he said, pointing to a nearby rock formation. It was tall and flat. He shoved Taffa forward, and she towed Seeli, their single-piece, blue dresses rippling in the wind.

They ran more quickly than he could in his state, and Taffa reached the rock wall first. She looked up, as if to climb to the top. It was too steep for that; Dalinar just wanted something solid to put at his back. He stepped onto a flat, open section of rock before the formation and raised his weapon.

[snip]

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright.

So, I have mentioned that there is at least a possibility that she used the rock as an exit point, possibly traveling through bedrock somehow. Given that most of the Roshar is rock, that would allow Stonewardens access to just about anywhere. Mind you, that is just a possibility, since there is not enough evidence for it.

Also, there is mention of Shinovar Stone Shamans, which may have abilities of Stonewardens, just as Szeth has the abilities of a Windrunner. That would allow them ability to get the Shardblade back from almost anywhere, if they could locate it, and might explain why the stone is revered like this in Shinovar (since there is soil, the Shamans can only come out of bare rocks, and a sight of a figure emerging from stone protrusion in, say , the field should certainly generate enough awe for some level of worship, at least. If they also have regrowth, well...)

However, your point about the spren perhaps observing people of certain bloodlines is interesting. Perhaps on Roshar, if your father was an honorable person, it is in your DNA, or perhaps your sDNA to follow in his footsteps, thus becoming a likely candidate for the other spren. But I feel in this example, it is less likely that it is ingrained into you, or part of any aspect of your DNA, whether pDNA or sDNA, I feel that instead it is ingrained into a completely out of the box, new idea, Cognitive DNA.

Hard to say. You see, there is always a question : will the very same magic work for somebody outside Roshar? Just as nobody knows if Human Attribute Hemalurgy would work if the "donor" is not from Scadrial - they don't have Preservation in them, so what is it stealing? Honor? It is possible, but unlikely. So, in this case, sDNA gives you not the magic, but the possibility to do magic. For the person from Roshar that means, if he/she follows the ideal (honor, honesty, possibly faith?, etc), the spren may be attracted, and give him/her some spren qualities (feeding off stormlight, spren abilities), in exchange for some human qualities (sentience in case of Syl, something else (maybe identity?) in case of Secretspren). But if a person from Scadrial comes to Roshar, that won't work. So in a way, possibly, Snapping in Allomancy is similar to Bonding in surgebinding. And just as all people on Scadrial have potential for Hemalurgy, so do all (or most) people of Roshar have potential for Surgebinding.

Soryy, got carried away again. I'll try to contain myself better next time.

[Odium's_Shard]

Hard to say. You see, there is always a question : will the very same magic work for somebody outside Roshar? Just as nobody knows if Human Attribute Hemalurgy would work if the "donor" is not from Scadrial - they don't have Preservation in them, so what is it stealing? Honor? It is possible, but unlikely. So, in this case, sDNA gives you not the magic, but the possibility to do magic. For the person from Roshar that means, if he/she follows the ideal (honor, honesty, possibly faith?, etc), the spren may be attracted, and give him/her some spren qualities (feeding off stormlight, spren abilities), in exchange for some human qualities (sentience in case of Syl, something else (maybe identity?) in case of Secretspren). But if a person from Scadrial comes to Roshar, that won't work. So in a way, possibly, Snapping in Allomancy is similar to Bonding in surgebinding. And just as all people on Scadrial have potential for Hemalurgy, so do all (or most) people of Roshar have potential for Surgebinding.

Soryy, got carried away again. I'll try to contain myself better next time.

No, no, you see this thread is a hotspot for us ramblers, specifically I.

But this is interesting, sort of like a control check of 'does it fit into the Cosmere' is what I presume you mean? Lets see. So, say Kaladin is somehow transported to Scadrial. He is worldhopped through Shadesmar for example, just to keep it possible. He is now in the domain of Harmony. And so, it is my belief that he no longer has access to Surgebinding, but not because of what you might think. Say he carries three gems filled with Stormlight. Once he has used up the Stormlight in those three gems, he can no longer perform a Surgebinding. No Stormlight, no Surgebinding. No highstorms, no Stormlight. Same way if an Allomancer came to Roshar. No metal, no Allomantic powers (although I am unsure about metals on Roshar, this seems to be an unfair advantage, but we do not know if metals on Scadrial are special in someway, being the focus of a Shard). However, lets say Kaladin is beset upon by a crazy Hemalurgist, and is stabbed with a spike. Normally, as all human beings have 'attributes' such as strength and senses written into their sDNA as standard, and so if it was a spike of Iron, say, it would still steal Kaladin's strength.

However, this is the pinnacle of my theory: if it was say, a Steel spike of pure Allomantic alloy that Kaladin was stabbed with, with the intention of stealing Allomantic physical powers (burning of Pewter, Tin, Steel, Iron)- nothing would happen. Kaladin would die, but the spike wouldn't be infused. Just as if you stabbed a Scadrial native with no Allomantic capability - no result.

But, say a Feruchemist came to Roshar. I'm sure they could still store and release from their metal reserves - just have to bring them with them.

Thing about Surgebinding and the Metallic Arts is, they are very good at not mingling. Jasnah travels to Scadrial with Stormlight-filled gems. She can still turn someone into crystal, but she wouldn't be able to sustain it for the lack of Stormlight. Allomancer comes to Roshar: once they burn all their metal, that's the limit of their power. They still need a source.

Hope it helped.

[Satsuoni he/him]

No, I know that. What I am not sure about, is whether Hemalurgy would steal Strenth from Kaladin, since:

Hemalurgy can be used to steal Allomantic or Feruchemical powers and give them to another person. However, a Hemalurgic spike can also be created by killing a normal person, one who is neither an Allomancer nor a Feruchemist. In that case, the spike instead steals the very power of Preservation existing within the soul of the people. (The power that, in fact, gives all people sentience.)

So, no preservation- no stealing. But here is another part of my theory - Hemlurgy can be transferred, too You kill someone on Scadrial (with atium spike, just to be sure), and spike someone on Roshar -and then you can steal his strength by spiking him with Iron. Pretty wasteful, though.

[Odium's_Shard]

Try to keep in mind Hemalurgic decay. Do we have any evidence that, say, worldhopping in Shadesmar doesn't accelerate this process? It might never reach Roshar before having depleted. But it would be cool anyway, as surely atium cannot exist on Roshar.

[Telcontar]

wow, this gets pretty heavy. I belive your points would fit better over on General Theories. Especially that DNA and Hemalurgy-stuff.

However about that quote. If you can steal a person's Preservation-soul-energy-stuff. Could you bring a dead person to life by spiking him with that spike? I only like this thought because it is so much like Awakening and gives us another similarity between magic-systems. I'm actually slowly gathering those.

thanks Satsuoni for filling in with your Travel-through-stone idea.

as to spren following bloodlines. If they indeed follow bloodlines (which I personally think unlikely) they could just do it because of normally a father raises his children according to his moral codes. Installing a sense of honor in his kids. Dalinar is a very good example for this.

Back to Shallan and the symbolheads.

I had another related thought, which supports my theory that symbolheads are not Investiture-spren. It's about bonding. While Shallan bounds a symbolhead by telling a truth, Kaladin never actively bonded with Syl. There has never been an understanding between them which made them bonded. Syl just bonded herself to Kal because of how he protected kids in Amaram's army.

I think a simple telling of a truth (which can be done by anyone) not sufficient a foundation for an Investiture-bond.

Looking forward to a theory about sub-conscience and cognitive aspects and Shadesmar. I'll make sure to discuss it with you.

As far as I can tell this covers what I had to respond to. If I forgot something, please remind me.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Try to keep in mind Hemalurgic decay. Do we have any evidence that, say, worldhopping in Shadesmar doesn't accelerate this process? It might never reach Roshar before having depleted. But it would be cool anyway, as surely atium cannot exist on Roshar.

Ah, well, we don't. But we can make a spike on-site!Just bring a supply of scadrial inhabitants with you. And while Atium does not have natural deposits on Roshar, nothing stops us from bringing some with you, if Sazed lets you have it (it being part of his body, and all)

Back to Shallan and the symbolheads.

I had another related thought, which supports my theory that symbolheads are not Investiture-spren. It's about bonding. While Shallan bounds a symbolhead by telling a truth, Kaladin never actively bonded with Syl. There has never been an understanding between them which made them bonded. Syl just bonded herself to Kal because of how he protected kids in Amaram's army.

I think a simple telling of a truth (which can be done by anyone) not sufficient a foundation for an Investiture-bond.

Looking forward to a theory about sub-conscience and cognitive aspects and Shadesmar. I'll make sure to discuss it with you.

We'll have have to agree to disagree on these points, probaly. I, for one, think that Secretspren are, in fact, Shallans bond spren, and that they are different from Jasnah's spren, whatever those are. Also, I believe tat they are a distinct subspecies from Syl. Syl, IMO, was a physical realm-based spren, originally without intelligence (which she borrows from Kaladin later). The symbolhead, on the other hand, are Cognitive-based spren, which may not be even able to influence physical realm without help, but they have intelligence originally, so they explain to potential bondees the process, since they want the bond (no idea why. Toaccess the physical realm? Just for kicks? For identity, since they may be sentience without identity?) Also, the bond with the Shallan is probably not complete yet, so it need more of her secrects to complete it.

[Telcontar]

From Brandonthology:

Louise wrote: "Is spren lost their memories and personalities because of the loss of their attached radiants? But retain a basic attraction to things associated with the radiants they bonded to previously?"

Brandon: Not all types of spren bonded to Radiants. You will find out more about this in the future. However, if you're speaking specifically of spren that were bonded to Radiants, then yes, you're on the right track.

This is why I believe that all KR-Investiture-spren will have to gain sentience as a result of the bond. Therefore excluding symbolheads.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, maybe. But you can lose your personality without losing sentience, you know. It is a little hard for Humans to imagine, but possible .

[Aradel he/him]

Thing about Surgebinding and the Metallic Arts is, they are very good at not mingling. Jasnah travels to Scadrial with Stormlight-filled gems. She can still turn someone into crystal, but she wouldn't be able to sustain it for the lack of Stormlight. Allomancer comes to Roshar: once they burn all their metal, that's the limit of their power. They still need a source.

Hope it helped.

Hasn't Brandon said that it is the molecular structure of the metals that tells preservation's power which form to take, similar to aons, only really small. So metal from anywhere would work for allomancers, as long as it was close enough on a molecular level.

My question is how much of an allomancer's power comes from having preservation in 'orbit' around scadrial, and what happens to their powers then they're on a world where preservation isn't around?

Edit: Sorry, off-topic.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[Odium's_Shard]

I didn't know that, Goradel's Nephew. But it would make sense. Maybe your sDNA and the configuration of the metal have to 'match' in order for you to use it? However, I appreciate your point that this would mean that metals everywhere would work, if they were precisely Allomantically alloyed.

I had another related thought, which supports my theory that symbolheads are not Investiture-spren. It's about bonding. While Shallan bounds a symbolhead by telling a truth, Kaladin never actively bonded with Syl. There has never been an understanding between them which made them bonded. Syl just bonded herself to Kal because of how he protected kids in Amaram's army.

I think a simple telling of a truth (which can be done by anyone) not sufficient a foundation for an Investiture-bond.

Looking forward to a theory about sub-conscience and cognitive aspects and Shadesmar. I'll make sure to discuss it with you.

You're right about symbolspren not necessarily responding only to truth. Now, I will split my post in half to deal with two ideas about symbolspren.

Shallan-only Symbolspren (in accordance with Satsuoni's point):

In this idea, symbolspren are only the Nahel-spren of Shallan, and not the guardians of Shadesmar or anything. So, in this ideal, it would make more sense that telling truth only increases the bond to the truthspren, instead of forming bonds with them every time you wanted to access Shadesmar. In this idea, you would have to use the primary attribute in order to form the bonds with the Nahel-spren, ie, Shallan's creativity would've attracted the spren who were gathered around Taravangian that day she drew his portrait (may also have been to do with the act she wasn't concentrating that the portrait showed the symbolspren).

Guardians-of-Shadesmar Symbolspren (in accordance with mine and Telcontar's previous posts):

Thinking about symbolspren as universal aspects of the Cognitive Realm (as in both Shallan and Jasnah would have to profer turths in order to access ) doesn't reallt make sense in this context as you are trying to argue that symbolspren should only accept truths in order to increase the bond between the spren and it Nahel-owner, while at the same time trying to argue that Jasnah should also be able to do this, even though Honesty isn't her secondary ideal. However it isn't too hard to imagine that Giving Truth covers both aspects of the two Orders, as opposed to just being Giving increasing the bond, or just generally being Honest, not necessarily in conjunction with interaction with you and the symbolspren.

Hope it helped.

[Telcontar]

Guardians-of-Shadesmar Symbolspren (in accordance with mine and Telcontar's previous posts):

Thinking about symbolspren as universal aspects of the Cognitive Realm (as in both Shallan and Jasnah would have to profer turths in order to access ) doesn't reallt make sense in this context as you are trying to argue that symbolspren should only accept truths in order to increase the bond between the spren and it Nahel-owner, while at the same time trying to argue that Jasnah should also be able to do this, even though Honesty isn't her secondary ideal. However it isn't too hard to imagine that Giving Truth covers both aspects of the two Orders, as opposed to just being Giving increasing the bond, or just generally being Honest, not necessarily in conjunction with interaction with you and the symbolspren.

I don't really get with whom you're arguing (the idea just above?)

Also a summary of my thesis for anyone who is not inclined to read every post we made.

My idea about symbolhead still is that they don't have something do to with the Nahel-bond. So there is no problem at all for Jasnah or anybody else to get in touch with symbolheads and forming a bond with them by telling a truth.

I believe the biggest problem people will have with this idea is that Shallan then will be bonded to two spren. The first being her personal 'honorspren' or Investiture-spren as I called them. This one is the spren granting her abilities to manipulate two surges by the use of Stormlight.

The second bond being the bond with a symbolhead which will give her access to Shadesmar whenever she needs to go there.

The secondary attribute for Shallan (honest) won't be of any importance in regard to her Investiture. (initial post of this thread) I took the point that her secondary attribute will play a role in her ascencion to a KR. Possibly her third Oath will be about honesty, the speaking of which will give her bigger power.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, I base the theory that symbolheads are Shallan-only on the following statements by Jasnah:

“No, Soulcasting fabrials are real. Quite real. So far as I know, everyone else who does what I—what we—can do uses a fabrial to accomplish it.”

(emphasis mine)

and:

“These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.”

“Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”

So, in the first statement Jasnah says that they share an ability (soulcasting). In the second, however, she says "you", not "we", implying that only Shallan uses these particular spren.

Besides, only two KR orders could soulcast, not just anybody who sees/ talks to them.

Also, going on the wild tangent [warning : stupid joke-like sentences ahead] : as the relationship between Shallan and spren progresses, and spren no longer has to ask her explicitly:

[shallan] (after a hard day's work) (to herself) Boy, I am hungry.

[spen] This is true (sucks Shallan into Shadesmar)

[shallan] Oops. Note to self - always carry infused spheres. *Glurgh* (drowning in the Bead Sea)