How Many "Truths" Shallan said so far?

[hoser he/him]

In ...  I've searched the WoB Compiled thread and been utterly unable to find any WoB that indicate how many Ideals there are in total, so it might be four + the First Ideal of the Immortal Words like Teft says, but his information may also be a bit wrong.  I guess what I'm saying is that that's a good guideline, but not something we should treat as absolute truth because the information is from an unreliable source....

It's not authoritative, but Nohadon's book is said to have 40 parables and the introductory story about walking to Urithiru.  Each parable supposedly alludes to an ideal, so it would work for 10 orders times 4 unique ideals.  This is somewhat confirming to me, so until I see evidence that one order has more or less than 4 unique ideal (or ordeals, or tests), my working assumption is that all orders have 4 unique whatever. 

 

I think it would round up things quite neatly for Shallan to have our last truth be about her future instead of her past. So far, she has acknowledged the grim past she has spent 6 years running away from, but she has not acknowledge what she wants to do with her future. ...

I like this idea.  Where Kaladin's purpose has to be all about protecting and leading, creativity and honesty really don't constrain Shallan.  I think of a truth about life purpose.  Much as I want to know about it, for me, neither her current romance nor the next measure up to her purpose in importance for her evolution as a Radiant.  

[Vaspin]

Did people in the book miss the mention in the book about how the Lightweavers progression works? It's not about "truths." Pattern says Shallan uses her lies to mask the truths about herself, which is how this all began presumably, but she needs to be able to see beyond the lies personally. It has less to do with what is going on in her life and everything to do with her knowledge of herself, self-awareness. Pattern describes them as truths because he thinks of such ideas as being either a truth or a falsity. 

 

It's not authoritative, but Nohadon's book is said to have 40 parables and the introductory story about walking to Urithiru.  Each parable supposedly alludes to an ideal, so it would work for 10 orders times 4 unique ideals.  This is somewhat confirming to me, so until I see evidence that one order has more or less than 4 unique ideal (or ordeals, or tests), my working assumption is that all orders have 4 unique whatever.

 

It's unlikely his book has a minimal impact on the Orders for a couple of reasons. One, the parables work towards teaching the reader the proper way to treat other people, especially those in a position of authority. This is not how the Orders function. They are not positions of authority but guardians for the people in varying ways. Second, we know of two Orders that are fundamentally are at odds with each other, Windrunners and Skybreakers. I wouldn't think "Way of Kings" would be seen as being cohesive if it contained parables which counteracted each other. And also the most glaring piece of evidence against your working theory is the Lightweavers themselves.

 

Words of Radiance, Ch. 57 "To Kill the Wind"

 

...he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to self-awareness...

 

This applies to Nohadon's book and my earlier stated point. There are no words which can help any of the Orders progress in their bond, least of which the Lightweavers.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Vaspin

[Fatebreaker he/him]

Her final oath should definitely be the following:

 

 

"I AM A STICK."

[hoser he/him]

Did people in the book miss the mention in the book about how the Lightweavers progression works? It's not about "truths." Pattern says Shallan uses her lies to mask the truths about herself, which is how this all began presumably, but she needs to be able to see beyond the lies personally. It has less to do with what is going on in her life and everything to do with her knowledge of herself, self-awareness. Pattern describes them as truths because he thinks of such ideas as being either a truth or a falsity. 

 

 

It's unlikely his book has a minimal impact on the Orders for a couple of reasons. One, the parables work towards teaching the reader the proper way to treat other people, especially those in a position of authority. This is not how the Orders function. They are not positions of authority but guardians for the people in varying ways. Second, we know of two Orders that are fundamentally are at odds with each other, Windrunners and Skybreakers. I wouldn't think "Way of Kings" would be seen as being cohesive if it contained parables which counteracted each other. And also the most glaring piece of evidence against your working theory is the Lightweavers themselves.

 

Words of Radiance, Ch. 57 "To Kill the Wind"

 

This applies to Nohadon's book and my earlier stated point. There are no words which can help any of the Orders progress in their bond, least of which the Lightweavers.

While there are a number of sentences that make no sense to me, notably the ones including "Did people in the book miss the mention in the book" and "It's unlikely his book has a minimal impact on the Orders," I guess you are trying to say that:

1. The in-world Way of Kings was just a manual for leadership and had no role in helping people become or advance as Radiants. 
2. The forty is just a coincidence and the parables do not correspond to the four levels of the ten orders Radiant ideals/truths/tests/whatever. 
3. The parables would particularly not apply to a Lightweaver like Shallan, who does not have fixed oaths. 
4. Since the Skybreakers and Windrunners had disagreements, they were fundamentally opposed and their ideals would have contradicted each other.  The book would then have had to be self-contradictory. 

Here are some other things that seem relevant to me:

1. The figure in the visions encourages Dalinar to read the book so that he can return to men the Shards they once bore. 
2. Shallan did read the Way of Kings and it did help her become a Lightweaver. 
3. Information from the book, relayed through Teft, helped Kaladin become a Radiant. 
4. Partly through reading the Way of Kings, Dalinar became a Radiant. 
5. The story of the walk to Urithiru is a rendering of the first, shared ideal of the Radiants. 
6. With ten orders having different goals and priorities, there are bound to be disagreements.  This does not mean that the orders or their ideals are contradictory.  Consider the Skybreaker ideal "I will put the law before all else."  There could easily be a parable illustrating the importance of following the law.  There could be a different parable illustrating the importance of protecting even those one hates.  In practice, there would inevitably be conflicts between people dedicated to one over the other and vice versa.  These conflicts could exist without predominating.  The Radiants worked together (apparently led by the Heralds) and helped fight off multiple Desolations. 

 

“It’s a quote,” Dalinar said. “From an ancient book called The Way of Kings. Gavilar favored readings from the volume near the end of his life—he spoke to me of it often . I didn’t realize the quote was from it until recently; Jasnah discovered it for me. I’ve now had the text of the book read to me a few times, but so far, I find nothing to explain why he wrote what he did.” He paused . “The book was used by the Radiants as a kind of guidebook, a book of counsel on how to live their lives.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 238). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Edited August 19, 2014 by hoser

[Vaspin]

*shrug* I feel like there is too much evidence elsewhere to say the Way of Kings is for the Radiants. You make valid points, but shouldn't we see more influence then if the parables pertain to the Ideals? Kaladin struggles through most of book two trying to find his way and there is no mention of a parable pertaining to his situation. In Shallan's case it's an entirely personal matter regarding her past. She was also more of a Radiant in her younger days than she is now. We've seen a few of the would-be Radiants already and there is no substantial connections between them, their Ideals, and the book Way of Kings. 

 

Also don't forget, we saw the vision in which Nohadon began his journey to writing the book. He was troubled by the state of men pre- and post-Desolation. He was struggling to find a way to change the situation for the better. At the end of the vision he was only concerned with how to rebuild. And I said this before but it was not the book, but one of the Heralds who was responsible for the Orders coming into existence. 

 

It's not that you don't have an argument for your thoughts, but there is a substantial amount of evidence to explain away the purpose you think the book holds for the Knights Radiant

[Crysanja]

i dont think that the truth about her father/mother advanced her.

but only to catchup to where she was before.

thouse were lies which she made herself belive - i guess thouse made her regress.

 

 

interesting would be which truth would make her realy advance?

maybe things like what spreen are, natural(/social) laws for the world, maybe thouse things make her advance.

 

 

maybe we should check the conversation with Hoid, there could have been truth which advanced her.

however that was after she killed her mother, so there must be much before.

thouse must be kind of an easy truth if a young child can comprehand and accept them.

 

 

maybe it is far less difficult for some KR to advance throu the first steps then others.

[hoser he/him]

*shrug* I feel like there is too much evidence elsewhere to say the Way of Kings is for the Radiants. You make valid points, but shouldn't we see more influence then if the parables pertain to the Ideals? Kaladin struggles through most of book two trying to find his way and there is no mention of a parable pertaining to his situation. In Shallan's case it's an entirely personal matter regarding her past. She was also more of a Radiant in her younger days than she is now. We've seen a few of the would-be Radiants already and there is no substantial connections between them, their Ideals, and the book Way of Kings. 

 

Also don't forget, we saw the vision in which Nohadon began his journey to writing the book. He was troubled by the state of men pre- and post-Desolation. He was struggling to find a way to change the situation for the better. At the end of the vision he was only concerned with how to rebuild. And I said this before but it was not the book, but one of the Heralds who was responsible for the Orders coming into existence. 

 

It's not that you don't have an argument for your thoughts, but there is a substantial amount of evidence to explain away the purpose you think the book holds for the Knights Radiant

There is a conundrum:  how would you write a parable that would address Shallan's "truths," which seem so personal and unique?  It's particularly hard when we don't have enough of them to generalize and of the two or three we have, one or two are to recover levels that she had previously achieved.  However, it doesn't seem impossible to me.  Here is just one possibility, but a writer of Brandon's skill and creativity could easily find others (I am not saying this is right, but just showing that it is possible to solve the puzzle).

• "I am terrified": a parable about the importance of knowing one's feelings and the impact of those feelings. 
• "I am a murderer":  a parable about the importance of admitting what one is capable of.
• "I killed my mother": a parable about how understanding our past and learning from it.

Or Brandon could just not explain how to address Lightweavers' "truths" using parables.  Or some orders could have more than four unique "words," and multiple Lightweaver "truths" could be addressed be addressed by a single parable.  There are many possible solutions. 

 

Kaladin is supposed to struggle.  If Brandon had wanted the book to be more about something else, he could have made Kaladin struggle less or have the resolution come more easily.  Just as Szeth could have easily seen the Voidbringers all around, noticed one of the two storms that he was in the middle of during a weeping or seen through Mr. T's obvious and self-serving lies and not attacked during the climax.  Kaladin not using a parable from the Way of Kings to more easily level up does not seem like evidence supporting anything.  

 

In the vision, Nohadon was dealing with Surgebinders who were not Knights and the destruction they caused because they were not principled enough.  Exactly the problem the Radiant's ideals solves.  The Heralds are already gone.  Urithiru is created during his lifetime, because he writes about walking there.  Desolations must be more widely spaced (because 90% population loss and surprising) and the Heralds don't come back until a few years before the next one.  There is evidence that Ishi may have been involved in the Radiant Ideals, but that does not prove that Nohadon didn't also describe them.  There is significant evidence suggesting that he did describe them.

[Vaspin]

You've not given me any, all we have is Dalinar saying the book was something the Radiants used, but he couldn't possibly know that for sure. I also wasn't saying Kaladin wasn't supposed to struggle. I was stating he struggled alone for the most part. And what help he did get came in the form of Vasher and Hoid. They helped lead him to where he needed to be mentally, Vasher is debatable as to how much help he actually provided to Kaladin on an emotional/mental level. But even in book one when Teft is telling Kal about the Immortal Words, he was telling them to him because of his history with the Envisagers, it had nothing to do with the Way of Kings book.

 

You are missing the point about the Lightweavers. There can't be any parables for them because their progression is extremely relative. You say there could be some story relating to Shallan's issue, but how could those apply to every other past or future Lightweaver? I quoted the passage from the Words of Radiance to show the relative nature between the Lightweavers and their progression. General application is almost impossible with things of a conditional nature. And Brandon has a hard rule about numbers. 16, 10, I think 3 is another one. He won't give you a number and then change it later on. 16 shards, 10 Orders, 5 Ideals, those are set and will not be changed.

 

Also I talked about surgebinders existing pre-Way of Kings to say people were bonding spren before the book was ever written. And there is no evidence which suggests the manner in which spren bond humans has changed over the years. Even after the Recreance, they still have the same methods. The book probably helped give them a sense of purpose and how they should be acting. But it's the spren, it's all about the spren. They embody the Ideals. They find people they think embody them as well. But the spren are the personification of said Ideals, in order for their to be a true bond their bondmates must grow to embody them truly as well. And thus we have the Immortal Words. That is why I don't think the book has anything to do with the Ideals. The book was about trying to teach people how to behave themselves in an honorable manner. The Ideals are about the bonds between people and the spren attracted to them

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

Keep in mind that with all the ideals, the words themselves do not matter.(this was in a WoB, I just don't remember where to find it)  It's just how Kaladin, Dalinar, or any other Radiant have chosen to express the mental state and attitudes of their particular order.

 

So while Kaladin says "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves", Lopen could express the same Idea with "I will treat all Ganchos like they are my cousin" (or something.).

 

So it IS possible that the truths that Lightweavers require could have some sort of a general description as hoser has suggested.  It seems from the text that is what is most important to the Cryptics is that the proto-lightweaver be able to discern reality on a more fundamental level.  Which is another way of saying that we all walk around wrapped in our own lies, a Lightweaver has to KNOW they are lies.

 

Note, lies here are not used as concious fabrications, but rather the interpretation of reality through our own percpetion and experiential filters.  A poor young man growing up in a ghetto has a very different perception of a situation than a wealthy older woman in the same set of circumstances.  For either to become a lightweaver, they would need to be able to simulaneously hold on to their own interpretation, while realizing that it's not strictly the truth - something not many could do.

[hoser he/him]

I am impressed that you are absolutely certain that you know what Brandon is doing.  I am much less certain.  Things you seem to just know seem to be involve discarding parts of the information that we have and deciding that others are absolute truth. 

You've not given me any, all we have is Dalinar saying the book was something the Radiants used, but he couldn't possibly know that for sure.

I assume that you mean "You've not given me any evidence, ..."  I still claim that the Dalinar quote is evidence.  It isn't absolute truth, but it is evidence that deserves consideration alongside other also-not-absolute-truth sources such as the "Words of Radiance" book that I believe you quoted earlier.    Words of Radiance was written by a non-Radiant sometime after the Recreance and is essentially hearsay, but I consider it significant evidence, which is why I provide multiple ways to reconcile it with the other evidence we have about tWoK.  It's true that I didn't provide more evidence, but that doesn't mean there isn't any.  If you want more evidence, I can provide it if you ask.  If you want to hold to your interpretation based on one suspect piece of evidence, I will leave you to your certainty. 

 

 

I also wasn't saying Kaladin wasn't supposed to struggle. I was stating he struggled alone for the most part. And what help he did get came in the form of Vasher and Hoid. They helped lead him to where he needed to be mentally, Vasher is debatable as to how much help he actually provided to Kaladin on an emotional/mental level. But even in book one when Teft is telling Kal about the Immortal Words, he was telling them to him because of his history with the Envisagers, it had nothing to do with the Way of Kings book.

Sure, Kaladin doesn't use the Way of Kings to resolve his dilemma.  So what?  Brandon has multiple choices about how to resolve situations.  I imagine he wants variety in how he does it.  Hoid's story about Fleet is essentially a parable reinforcing the first ideal: journey before destination.  Vasher likewise, as "do what helps you sleep at night" is essentially "means before ends." Consider the following quote:

Teft grunted. “You’re not a Radiant, lad.” “Weren’t we just talking about—” “Oh, you can infuse,” Teft said. “You can drink in the Stormlight and command it. But being a Radiant was more than that. It was their way of life, the things they did. The Immortal Words.” “The what?” Teft rolled his sphere between his fingers again, holding it up and staring into its depths. “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. That was their motto, and was the First Ideal of the Immortal Words. There were four others.” Kaladin raised an eyebrow . “Which were?” “I don’t actually know,” Teft said. “But the Immortal Words—these Ideals— guided everything they did. The four later Ideals were said to be different for every order of Radiants. But the First Ideal was the same for each of the ten: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination .” He hesitated. “Or so I was told.” “Yes, well , that seems a little obvious to me,” Kaladin said. “Life comes before death. Just like day comes before night , or one comes before two. Obvious.” “You’re not taking this seriously. Maybe that’s why the Stormlight refuses you.” Kaladin stood and stretched. “I’m sorry, Teft. I’m just tired.” “Life before death,” Teft said, wagging a finger at Kaladin. “The Radiant seeks to defend life, always. He never kills unnecessarily, and never risks his own life for frivolous reasons. Living is harder than dying. The Radiant’s duty is to live. “Strength before weakness. All men are weak at some time in their lives. The Radiant protects those who are weak, and uses his strength for others. Strength does not make one capable of rule; it makes one capable of service.” Teft picked up spheres, putting them in his pouch. He held the last one for a second, then tucked it away too. “Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.” “The Almighty? So the knights were tied to religion?” “Isn’t everything ? There was some old king who came up with all this. Had his wife write it in a book or something. My mother read it . The Radiants based the Ideals on what was written there.”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 831). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

You are missing the point about the Lightweavers. There can't be any parables for them because their progression is extremely relative. You say there could be some story relating to Shallan's issue, but how could those apply to every other past or future Lightweaver?

I don't think so.  In the example I provide I show that one of many solutions involves the Lightweavers acknowledging truths about something that every Lightweaver has: feelings, potential and past.  While the revelations will be very individual, they could still fit in categories. 

I quoted the passage from the Words of Radiance to show the relative nature between the Lightweavers and their progression. General application is almost impossible with things of a conditional nature.

If you want to get philosophical, consider this:  you are attempting to prove a negative, which is considered impossible.  Disproving a negative, however, is quite easy: just provide a solution, as I have done.  QED

And Brandon has a hard rule about numbers. 16, 10, I think 3 is another one. He won't give you a number and then change it later on. 16 shards, 10 Orders, 5 Ideals, those are set and will not be changed.

Once again, I admire your certainty about the five ideals.  I agree, but am not as certain.  What I am trying to do is provide ways of reconciling what we know about the Way of Kings and the Lightweavers without arbitrarily discarding some information in favor of an uncertain interpretation of other information.

 

Also I talked about surgebinders existing pre-Way of Kings to say people were bonding spren before the book was ever written. And there is no evidence which suggests the manner in which spren bond humans has changed over the years. Even after the Recreance, they still have the same methods. The book probably helped give them a sense of purpose and how they should be acting. But it's the spren, it's all about the spren. They embody the Ideals. They find people they think embody them as well. But the spren are the personification of said Ideals, in order for their to be a true bond their bondmates must grow to embody them truly as well. And thus we have the Immortal Words. That is why I don't think the book has anything to do with the Ideals. The book was about trying to teach people how to behave themselves in an honorable manner. The Ideals are about the bonds between people and the spren attracted to them

You claim that the bonds haven't changed?  In the Nohadon vision , there are Surgebinders, but no Radiants, and he says:

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” “I agree,” Dalinar said. The other man looked relieved. “I worried that you would find my claims too forward. Your own Surgebinders were… But, no, we should not look backward.” What’s a Surgebinder? Dalinar wanted to scream the question out, but there was no way. Not without sounding completely out of place. Perhaps… “What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?” Dalinar asked carefully. “I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them….” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given— whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond— needs to make us better.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 849). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

This is the problem that the Way of Kings and the Radiants are attempting to solve.  Now consider that Honor was even surprised by the bonds the spren created and look at the epigraph in WoR preceding chapter 42.  The Stormfather also has to accept the words for a Windrunner or a Bondsmith to advance.  I believe that sometime after the Nohadon vision, the spren agreed to limit the bonds depending on the ideal/truths/whatever and the Surgebinders had to become Radiants or their bond would not strengthen.

The circumstances of the preservation of the Way of Kings are also interesting, as it was found at Vanrial, where the words of Nohadon were also preserved in the original Dawnchant.  Did the knights make provision to rise again by preserving knowledge at Vanrial?  I asked Brandon about Vanrial at a signing and got a complete RAFO. 

[Vaspin]

Keep in mind that with all the ideals, the words themselves do not matter.(this was in a WoB, I just don't remember where to find it)  It's just how Kaladin, Dalinar, or any other Radiant have chosen to express the mental state and attitudes of their particular order.

 

So while Kaladin says "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves", Lopen could express the same Idea with "I will treat all Ganchos like they are my cousin" (or something.).

 

So it IS possible that the truths that Lightweavers require could have some sort of a general description as hoser has suggested.  It seems from the text that is what is most important to the Cryptics is that the proto-lightweaver be able to discern reality on a more fundamental level.  Which is another way of saying that we all walk around wrapped in our own lies, a Lightweaver has to KNOW they are lies.

 

Note, lies here are not used as concious fabrications, but rather the interpretation of reality through our own percpetion and experiential filters.  A poor young man growing up in a ghetto has a very different perception of a situation than a wealthy older woman in the same set of circumstances.  For either to become a lightweaver, they would need to be able to simulaneously hold on to their own interpretation, while realizing that it's not strictly the truth - something not many could do.

 

This idea is what Pattern is saying Shallan does, but it does not have much to do with how she progresses as a Radiant. You're point has more to do with the conversations Pattern and Shallan have about people and there usage of lies. It also has to do with why Pattern chose Shallan to bond with. Her natural ability to shape and create lies would be very useful in Lightweaving. However, in order to progress she has to realize things about herself. In her case she has to stop being in denial about her past, but that may not be the same for other Lightweavers. It's all about self-awareness

 

*Edit for hoser's post*

 

I will admit it is hypocritical of me to denounce your source, while still trying to use mine. You made a good point about the impact of Way of Kings on the conduct and Ideals of the Orders. I guess my biggest issue with the theory of the book being relevant to a Radiant's progression is simply how Kal and Shallan go about it. It literally says Kal knew the Second Ideal even though he'd never heard it before and Shallan stumbles into admitting being afraid. Even in book two, when Kal reasons out the Third Ideal it feels organic, as if that was the way it always happens. You and your spren are supposed to journey there together

Edited August 20, 2014 by Vaspin

[kari-no-sugata]

WoB states that Shallan and Kaladin were briefly at the same level in WoR but Shallan went up a level right at the end of the book. However, it seems likely that the total number of truths that Shallan has spoken in her lifetime is somewhat higher than that implies since she regressed on killing her mother. I'm not sure how much her actual level has changed over time. Did speaking those truths in tWoK actually increase her "level" or just help re-form her bond with Pattern? Shallan thinks that the Cryptic she spoke to in tWoK was not Pattern, so it was effectively a temporary bond it seems.

New WoB:

Q: Is the order of the Ideals fixed? E.g. does Kaladin have to say the Windrunner Ideals in a specific order, or are they situation-specific?
A: Yes, the sequence is fixed. The oaths for each order are essentially a progression of understanding of the kind of person that each Order of Knights Radiant is trying to produce. The specific wording of each Ideal is not fixed, but the overall idea of each Ideal, and the order in which they are spoken, is.

Hmm. For orders like the Windrunners I wonder if the first unique oath/ideal is basically their "mission" and the later Ideals are more to constrain them to carry out their mission in an "honourable" way? So the Windrunner Ideals could be something like:

1. I will protect
2. I will not discriminate in who I protect
3. I will not respond disproportionately while protecting
4. I will not require someone to do something I wouldn't do to protect others

For the Lightweavers their overall mission might be to "bring hope" - they see things as they really are yet still have hope for the future to be better. For example, Shallan knows that Balat has a habit of torturing animals to death but rather than confront him directly she looks for ways to help him improve overall. This is why I think of Cryptics as "fictionspren" since you can create better works of fiction if you understand the subject matter better - start from the truth then add (plausible) lies on top of it. This is more or less what Wit/Hoid suggests to Shallan in the Middlefest flashback.

[Lumen]

Just inserting a comment. (no quotes though).  

 

The Listeners form bonds with Spren.  Then Humans came, and some of the Spren abandoned them, as they preferred to bond with Humans.  (from one of their songs).  I think this created the original surge binders.   (Mentioned in the Nohodon vision).   And this is the natural magic system of the world (bonding with Spren to achieve something.  Changes in abilities, growth, etc.).   Later, the Human bonds were modified (through Honor?) to be linked more strongly to ideals.   (the ideals probably already existed.  Just as Listeners have to attune themselves prior to a bonding, humans would have to be of a certain mindset as well)

 

Now, with that said, for most orders, the "words" that are said need to match certain concepts/ideals (enforced), I think it consistent that the truths admitted by Lightweavers should have something behind them as well, otherwise how would you tie them to the Order (enforcement)?  It couldn't be any-old truth.  It would have to be something that could be accepted, and be subject to some idea/ideal & progression.  Also, we know that the Stormfather accepts the ideals for the Windrunners.  Are there other entities that do this for other orders?  ("that Truth is acceptable").   After Shallon breaks her bond with Pattern, she needs to restate her truths to reform.  The truths may be different, but likely follow some pattern set forth for the order.  

[hoser he/him]

WoB states ...

Shallan thinks that the Cryptic she spoke to in tWoK was not Pattern, so it was effectively a temporary bond it seems.

...

Really?  I missed that.  Could you please give me a hint about where it says that?

 

Just inserting a comment. (no quotes though).  

 

The Listeners form bonds with Spren.  Then Humans came, and some of the Spren abandoned them, as they preferred to bond with Humans.  (from one of their songs).  I think this created the original surge binders.   (Mentioned in the Nohodon vision).   And this is the natural magic system of the world (bonding with Spren to achieve something.  Changes in abilities, growth, etc.).   Later, the Human bonds were modified (through Honor?) to be linked more strongly to ideals.   (the ideals probably already existed.  Just as Listeners have to attune themselves prior to a bonding, humans would have to be of a certain mindset as well)

...

I think the humans and H&C arrived together.  The bonding spren all came from H&C, and really were never the spren that bonded the Listeners.  So the "abandonment" and "betrayal" that the listeners imagine could be from the "all your spren are belong to us" mindset. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Really?  I missed that.  Could you please give me a hint about where it says that?

 

Shallan's inner thoughts from chapter 6: I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern, but I cannot say, as he seems to have forgotten much about himself.

 

IIRC that was the only reference.

 

Just inserting a comment. (no quotes though).

The Listeners form bonds with Spren. Then Humans came, and some of the Spren abandoned them, as they preferred to bond with Humans. (from one of their songs). I think this created the original surge binders. (Mentioned in the Nohodon vision). And this is the natural magic system of the world (bonding with Spren to achieve something. Changes in abilities, growth, etc.). Later, the Human bonds were modified (through Honor?) to be linked more strongly to ideals. (the ideals probably already existed. Just as Listeners have to attune themselves prior to a bonding, humans would have to be of a certain mindset as well)

Now, with that said, for most orders, the "words" that are said need to match certain concepts/ideals (enforced), I think it consistent that the truths admitted by Lightweavers should have something behind them as well, otherwise how would you tie them to the Order (enforcement)? It couldn't be any-old truth. It would have to be something that could be accepted, and be subject to some idea/ideal & progression. Also, we know that the Stormfather accepts the ideals for the Windrunners. Are there other entities that do this for other orders? ("that Truth is acceptable"). After Shallon breaks her bond with Pattern, she needs to restate her truths to reform. The truths may be different, but likely follow some pattern set forth for the order.

 

Hmm, interesting thoughts on Parshendi and Surgebinders. I wonder how "smart" most spren were back then? Maybe they preferred a bond where they had more control?

 

My mental model of "proto" Radiants is currently something like: some spren see Heralds doing interesting things and try to copy them by looking for humans that are similar to the Heralds. Multiple spren types are trying this in parallel and the prototype orders are quite diverse in terms of approach. Over time, the close relationship between spren and humans causes new types of spren to form - honorspren come from windspren, Cryptics from creationspren etc. Ishar does some things to organise the orders - possibly he is able to change how they function in certain ways (being the Herald Bondsmith), make them more consistent and safer. Maybe later Bondsmiths added their own touches. However, I doubt Bondsmiths can just change anything. Maybe all the Radiant spren except the Cryptics had a system of Oaths/Ideals and it wasn't possible to force the Cryptics to change - it's more of a historical artefact in some ways.

 

From what the in-world WoR book says it seems that becoming a full Lightweaver is more of a challenge compared to most (?) of the orders. A serious mental challenge - in tWoK the Cryptic Shallan was talking to rejected one of her offered Truths and demanded something stronger and deeper:

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought. I'm sure that's a truth.

 

That's not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. What are you?

 

Regardless of how it happened or why it does seem to me that the underlying nature of the Truths that Lightweavers must speak are entirely individual. They need to be strong and deep enough, is all. While we could imagine replacing Lightweaver Truths with Ideals instead but that's not what we actually have. Maybe the Truth constraints that Lightweavers work under are strict enough that "rouge" Lightweavers were extremely rare in practice and so the order did not need additional safety measures.

 

 

[hoser he/him]

Thanks (upvote)!

 
Shallan's inner thoughts from chapter 6: I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern, but I cannot say, as he seems to have forgotten much about himself.
 
IIRC that was the only reference.

Given the quote you provide later (about the strength of the truth affecting the bond), the fact that Pattern crossed from the cognitive again in WoR (hence had to have been in the cognitive in tWoK) and the reference to his voice being a deeper hum in Shadesmar (in chapter 11, when she is trying to make fire), I still believe that she was always working with Pattern.  Not that I want to convince anybody else, but it just makes no sense to me that she would speak truths to a different spren after having bonded with Pattern, when Pattern would have likely been there.  It also fits that if she had strengthened the bond with Pattern by telling him truths, he would then have crossed over to the physical. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by hoser

[kari-no-sugata]

Given the quote you provide later (about the strength of the truth affecting the bond), the fact that Pattern crossed from the cognitive again in WoR (hence had to have been in the cognitive in tWoK) and the reference to his voice being a deeper hum in Shadesmar (in chapter 11, when she is trying to make fire), I still believe that she was always working with Pattern.  Not that I want to convince anybody else, but it just makes no sense to me that she would speak truths to a different spren after having bonded with Pattern, when Pattern would have likely been there.  It also fits that if she had strengthened the bond with Pattern by telling him truths, he would then have crossed over to the physical. 

 

It would seem to fit the rough spren bonding pattern we've seen in the others. However, we also know for certain that Shallan is a special case because her bond with Pattern was dead for about 6 years. Does this explain how Shallan can advance as a Lightweaver by speaking Truths (in tWoK) before she actually summons Pattern (back) to the physical realm in WoR? I don't think so - still seems odd to me. If Shallan and Pattern are talking in tWoK then why isn't she able to summon him properly after using Soulcasting the first time? Why doesn't Pattern talk to her at all in the days between her second Soulcasting (end of tWoK) and summoning him near the beginning of WoR? He should have been more likely to talk to her.

 

I also found another relevant quote. In chapter 60 ("Veil Walks"):

"My memory is weak," Pattern said. "I was dumb so long, nearly dead. Mmm. I could not speak."

 

I take this to mean that he could not speak until after Shallan summoned him (that's how she interpreted him) - ie they could not have talked in tWoK.

 

I think what happened in tWoK is that Pattern's friends/colleagues were prompting Shallan to interact with Jasnah by making her Soulcast. We know that there were multiple Cryptics there - if Pattern was one of them he should have stood out more, I'd think. So they formed a weak (temporary) bond with her. This and her talks with Jasnah start removing some of the mental blocks that Shallan has had since her mother's death. After that, Pattern starts waking up (as it were) and this is how Shallan starts to see him again at the start of WoR.

 

Incidentally, I suspect that the real reason why Elhokhar stops seeing things in the corner of his eye is not because of Kaladin turning up but because he was the Cryptics' backup plan in case Shallan wasn't able to re-form her bond with Pattern. Once she does so, the Cryptics around Elhokhar stop scoping him out. Do I really think Elhokhar was a potential Lightweaver? Well, I have trouble seeing him able to become a good one but maybe it's no co-incidence that he and Shallan are the only people on Roshar who actually like Wit/Hoid

[Lumen]

From what the in-world WoR book says it seems that becoming a full Lightweaver is more of a challenge compared to most (?) of the orders. A serious mental challenge - in tWoK the Cryptic Shallan was talking to rejected one of her offered Truths and demanded something stronger and deeper:

 

 

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought. I'm sure that's a truth.

 

That's not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. What are you?

 

Hmm.   What if the second truth is the answer to "What are you?"  The Truth (hidden by Lies).    And... The first truth is the feeling she is hiding (Fear).  

[hoser he/him]

Thanks again. When you explain it more thoroughly, I can see it.   The quote seems really relevant also.  Now I can see it both ways.  Darn you for popping the fragile bubble of my simple certainty with more information!

It would seem to fit the rough spren bonding pattern we've seen in the others. However, we also know for certain that Shallan is a special case because her bond with Pattern was dead for about 6 years. Does this explain how Shallan can advance as a Lightweaver by speaking Truths (in tWoK) before she actually summons Pattern (back) to the physical realm in WoR? I don't think so - still seems odd to me. If Shallan and Pattern are talking in tWoK then why isn't she able to summon him properly after using Soulcasting the first time? Why doesn't Pattern talk to her at all in the days between her second Soulcasting (end of tWoK) and summoning him near the beginning of WoR? He should have been more likely to talk to her.

 

I also found another relevant quote. In chapter 60 ("Veil Walks"):

 

I take this to mean that he could not speak until after Shallan summoned him (that's how she interpreted him) - ie they could not have talked in tWoK.

 

I think what happened in tWoK is that Pattern's friends/colleagues were prompting Shallan to interact with Jasnah by making her Soulcast. We know that there were multiple Cryptics there - if Pattern was one of them he should have stood out more, I'd think. So they formed a weak (temporary) bond with her. This and her talks with Jasnah start removing some of the mental blocks that Shallan has had since her mother's death. After that, Pattern starts waking up (as it were) and this is how Shallan starts to see him again at the start of WoR.

 

Incidentally, I suspect that the real reason why Elhokhar stops seeing things in the corner of his eye is not because of Kaladin turning up but because he was the Cryptics' backup plan in case Shallan wasn't able to re-form her bond with Pattern. Once she does so, the Cryptics around Elhokhar stop scoping him out. Do I really think Elhokhar was a potential Lightweaver? Well, I have trouble seeing him able to become a good one but maybe it's no co-incidence that he and Shallan are the only people on Roshar who actually like Wit/Hoid

[kaellok he/him]

 

Incidentally, I suspect that the real reason why Elhokhar stops seeing things in the corner of his eye is not because of Kaladin turning up but because he was the Cryptics' backup plan in case Shallan wasn't able to re-form her bond with Pattern. Once she does so, the Cryptics around Elhokhar stop scoping him out. Do I really think Elhokhar was a potential Lightweaver? Well, I have trouble seeing him able to become a good one but maybe it's no co-incidence that he and Shallan are the only people on Roshar who actually like Wit/Hoid

Not quite true...Adolin also really likes Wit/Hoid.

 

Also, with regard to Shallan summoning Pattern, there are at least two times in WoK where we get hints that she has a Shardblade that she can summon.  First, when she goes into the alley with Jasnah.  Second, right before the cryptics actually speak to her; in fact, their speaking interrupted that summoning.  I don't think that the bond between Shallan and Pattern was quite as dead as you think, but that you are spot on in the cryptics forcing her to renew and strengthen the bond.  

 

We have the following WoB that seem to align with this:

 

 

 

Q:  How did Pattern actually become a Shardblade even though he hadn't been fully pulled into the Physical Realm?

A:  He was pulled into the Physical Realm before, when Shallan was younger.  And she almost broke her bond.

Q:  He didn't go mad though.

A:  She didn't completely break the bond.  She didn't reject him completely.  But it was dangerous for a while.

 

 

Q:  Where was Pattern before Shallan drew him?

A:  He was around. The bonding process had started when Shallan was young but then she pushed him away and he withdrew mostly to the Cognitive realm until the bonding was started again and she pulled him fully into the physical when she drew him.

[hoser he/him]

I want this to be a contribution to an interesting (to me!) discussion, not a stubborn defense of a previously held belief. 

It would seem to fit the rough spren bonding pattern we've seen in the others. However, we also know for certain that Shallan is a special case because her bond with Pattern was dead for about 6 years. Does this explain how Shallan can advance as a Lightweaver by speaking Truths (in tWoK) before she actually summons Pattern (back) to the physical realm in WoR? I don't think so - still seems odd to me. If Shallan and Pattern are talking in tWoK then why isn't she able to summon him properly after using Soulcasting the first time? Why doesn't Pattern talk to her at all in the days between her second Soulcasting (end of tWoK) and summoning him near the beginning of WoR? He should have been more likely to talk to her.

 

I also found another relevant quote. In chapter 60 ("Veil Walks"):

 

I take this to mean that he could not speak until after Shallan summoned him (that's how she interpreted him) - ie they could not have talked in tWoK.

Another possible interpretation is that the quote from Chapter 60 is referring to the time between the end of tWoK and when Shallan "draws" him into the physical.  It fits with what Wyndle and Syl describe about the transition to the physical and the effects on memory.  Shallan interprets it this way, as I read it.  The text immediately following the above quote:

"Yeah," Shallan said, remembering him spinning on the ground and running into the wall.  "You were kind of cute, though."

On this interpretation, the quote you offer is the answer to the question you ask above (Why doesn't Pattern talk to her at all in the days between her second Soulcasting (end of tWoK) and summoning him near the beginning of WoR?).  As he says: "I could not speak."

 

Although Shallan interprets him as referring to the more recent, shorter time just preceding the sinking of the ship, that doesn't prove that Pattern isn't referring to a longer time encompassing the events of tWoK. 

Not quite true...Adolin also really likes Wit/Hoid.

 

Also, with regard to Shallan summoning Pattern, there are at least two times in WoK where we get hints that she has a Shardblade that she can summon.  First, when she goes into the alley with Jasnah.  Second, right before the cryptics actually speak to her; in fact, their speaking interrupted that summoning.  I don't think that the bond between Shallan and Pattern was quite as dead as you think, but that you are spot on in the cryptics forcing her to renew and strengthen the bond.  

 

We have the following WoB that seem to align with this:

Thank you also!  These quotes seem very relevant.  The idea that he was mostly in the cognitive and that "the bonding was started again" seem more compatible with the thought that Shallan interacted with Pattern in tWoK to me. 

[Crysanja]

i think the reason why Pattern didnt "die", is that Shallan remembered, she had a Shardblade. 

i guess this was the only link left between them.

[bo.montier]

On 8/18/2014 at 4:22 PM, Patrick Star said:

 

Or maybe it's more along the lines of "Eye color doesn't matter" or "I'm an eyecolorist bigot"

 

Though it'll probably be "Kaladin did nothing wrong when he killed my brother"

"My brother deserved to die because he joined the wrong side..." maybe?

But that isn't a truth about her.

[Humpty he/him]

On 8/20/2014 at 7:05 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

Hmm. For orders like the Windrunners I wonder if the first unique oath/ideal is basically their "mission" and the later Ideals are more to constrain them to carry out their mission in an "honourable" way? So the Windrunner Ideals could be something like:

1. I will protect
2. I will not discriminate in who I protect
3. I will not respond disproportionately while protecting
4. I will not require someone to do something I wouldn't do to protect others

This is one of the better guesses I have seen on future oaths of windrunners. Have a thumbs up. A lot of people think the next two will be about leadership, however I have my doubts about that.

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, Humpty said:

This is one of the better guesses I have seen on future oaths of windrunners. Have a thumbs up. A lot of people think the next two will be about leadership, however I have my doubts about that.

Thanks, glad you liked it. It's been 3 years since I posted that but I've not really changed my mind much on that. I might express it slightly differently though. I think I've had different ideas about the last one as well.