The Diagram & Seeing the Future

[Zaineph]

Hi all,

 

I recently saw Brandon at the London signing and got to ask him the following question:

 

Me: "In Mistborn, we saw that Ruin was able to manipulate writings not written in Metal and essentially alter the prophecy. Has or is something happening to Taravangian's Diagram"

 

Brandon: *Smiles* "Oh, here you go" *hands me a RAFO card*, "Let's just say that seeing the future...is not of Honour"

 

I can't remember if that is the exact wording, he might have said "is not genuinely of Honour".

 

Now the way he said originally made me think that Odium would have been the one who would have the most to prophet from providing a false diagram. But then again apparently Odium is locked on Braize without being able to do any harm. Maybe his influence is still able to affect others.

 

However the other option, and perhaps slightly more likely is that as the Nightwatcher gave Taravangian the power to create the Diagram, and I think that the Nightwatcher is of Cultivation (or even Cultivation itself), so the Diagram is designed to suit Cultivation's purpose.  

 

Now if you type Cultivation into google it comes up with 2 meanings striaght away:

 

1.the action of cultivating land, or the state of being cultivated

2.the process of trying to acquire or develop a quality or skill

 

If we look at what Taravangian is doing, the Diagram is leading him to shape the land or cultivate in it in some way. He also mentioned the possibility of killing off everyone below the average intelligence, which ties in with the 2nd meaning. 

 

It got me thinking about other times we have seen the future, and I thought of Atium and how it provides you with a breif glimpse. This is of Ruin who is the main antoganist and I have the feeling from what Brandon said that seeing the future is supposed to be a bad/evil thing or at least related to evil. This would make sense if the Diagram was of Odium but if it is of Cultivation, maybe there is a purpose that we don't understand that perhaps is quite that compasionate to human race.

 

The other mention of seeing the future that I found was in Warbreaker where The First Returned, Vo, saw the 5 visions. I can't remember if we've seen all these visions yet and maybe they're not even related but I'm just throughing it out there for speculation.

 

So to Summarise: We know that the Diagram is not of Honour, and we can pretty much guess that is either being altered or was orginally designed to manipulate. However it's still uncertain which shard it comes from.

 

Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Zaineph]

Also a follow up theory to this, and I may be going a big far fetched here but;

 

What if Rayse is no longer in charge of Odium and actually managed to switch with Cultivation's holder before he got 'imprisioned' on Braize?

 

I'm not expecting this to pan out but it would be a hell of a twist though.

[lonelymagician]

 

 

It got me thinking about other times we have seen the future, and I thought of Atium and how it provides you with a breif glimpse. This is of Ruin who is the main antoganist and I have the feeling from what Brandon said that seeing the future is supposed to be a bad/evil thing or at least related to evil.

 

Well, atium provides a glimpse into the immediate future, which ruin could see. Ruin was actually very bad a long term planning and seeing into the future; that was preservation's strength. So, I don't think seeing into the future is evil in the cosmere, though we can probably safely assume the reason it's considered taboo on Roshar is because it's not of Honor. Cultivation seems like a shard/intent that would go well with seeing into the future though... and I've always thought odium would be good at it too, being like a Manipulative Bastard, or a Chessmaster, and so would have to be adept at planning/predicting. 

 

I kind of like the idea that odium is messing with the diagram, though I don't think he would do so directly. My money is on Odium influencing Cultiavtion, and if the diagram is twisted or changed from what it would have been otherwise, it's because of Odium's influence on Cultivation, not through any direct action. 

 

Stuff to think about though...

[Moogle]

I've always liked the theory that Taravangian is Cultivation's champion while Kaladin or someone else will end up as Honor's, but as to the main point of the thread...

 

Seeing the future is not of Honor. As Brandon is attempting to show that honorable behavior will pay off in the end (so long as you're on a world where you will gain magical strength if you act honorably, which somewhat counters the themes), anything that doesn't align with Honor will probably end up being harmful in the end. So in that regard, we can guess that Brandon was saying that the Diagram might not be manipulated per se, but that it's not good for Roshar overall.

 

Dunno. I don't think Brandon would play the same trick twice with Shard-manipulated writings.

[Savanorn he/him]

Well, the Diagram are using Death Rattles to try and augment the Diagram and keep it on track.  

[Andrew C]

Well, atium provides a glimpse into the immediate future, which ruin could see. Ruin was actually very bad a long term planning and seeing into the future; that was preservation's strength. So, I don't think seeing into the future is evil in the cosmere, though we can probably safely assume the reason it's considered taboo on Roshar is because it's not of Honor. Cultivation seems like a shard/intent that would go well with seeing into the future though... and I've always thought odium would be good at it too, being like a Manipulative Bastard, or a Chessmaster, and so would have to be adept at planning/predicting. 

 

I kind of like the idea that odium is messing with the diagram, though I don't think he would do so directly. My money is on Odium influencing Cultiavtion, and if the diagram is twisted or changed from what it would have been otherwise, it's because of Odium's influence on Cultivation, not through any direct action. 

 

Stuff to think about though...

 

Please don't post TV Tropes links when I need to be working...

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

To me, the diagram has always been a little "off". Theoretically, the idea is to preserve humanity, but it does this through creating massive chaos. After all, it really would have been easier to ally with Dalinar, who was concerned with the desolations (and rumors must have been all over the place that he was seeing visions), instead of trying to kill him. Taravangian's efforts actually seem to be hindering humanity instead of helping it.

[Moogle]

To me, the diagram has always been a little "off". Theoretically, the idea is to preserve humanity, but it does this through creating massive chaos. After all, it really would have been easier to ally with Dalinar, who was concerned with the desolations (and rumors must have been all over the place that he was seeing visions), instead of trying to kill him. Taravangian's efforts actually seem to be hindering humanity instead of helping it.

 

The Diagram is thoroughly "un-Honorable", so Dalinar would never ally himself with Taravangian and carry it through, I think. I imagine this is why Taravangian wanted him bumped off. He is competition for the role of "leader of humanity", and he wouldn't do what the Diagram sees as necessary to save humanity.

 

As to the chaos, well, the Diagram predicted the exact date of the Everstorm, so despite causing chaos it does seem that it's still part of the plan and the chaos isn't so bad that the world is doomed. I mean, if the plan was just "cause chaos just as the Desolation starts", average-Mr. T would never have followed the plan.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

I don't see the Diagram as causing chaos to the eyes of Taravangian. It is pretty specific as to what the targets should be and the results of said actions. To me, it's like in gardening/agriculture, where you need to prune some branches/offshoots, so that other branches can become stronger and bear fruit. If you don't prune your trees/plants, their crop becomes weaker. So, I think Cultivation is aiming here to cut off/sacrifice some weak branches/offshoots so that humanity as a whole can survive. "Gotta do what you can to survive" is heard often, and I think this is what mr. T is doing.

 

Now, as to how Honour and Cultivation 'got along' before Honour was shattered, would be an interesting story.

[kaellok he/him]

I don't see the Diagram as causing chaos to the eyes of Taravangian. It is pretty specific as to what the targets should be and the results of said actions. To me, it's like in gardening/agriculture, where you need to prune some branches/offshoots, so that other branches can become stronger and bear fruit. If you don't prune your trees/plants, their crop becomes weaker. So, I think Cultivation is aiming here to cut off/sacrifice some weak branches/offshoots so that humanity as a whole can survive. "Gotta do what you can to survive" is heard often, and I think this is what mr. T is doing.

 

Now, as to how Honour and Cultivation 'got along' before Honour was shattered, would be an interesting story.

The Diagram is Mr. T, not Cultivation.  Even if we assume that the expanded brainpower is of Cultivation (which I do), the Diagram is still of Mr. T and not Cultivation.  Let's use an example to clarify:

 

Bob is worried about his own safety, and the safety of his family and his neighbors.  So, he forms a Neighborhood Watch and goes to a smithy and buys a bunch of bows, crossbows, swords, pikes, and other weapons.  He and the Neighborhood Watch then set about killing literally every one else on the planet with these weapons.  This plan is of Bob, not necessarily the blacksmith.  The smith may have enabled the plan, and might even be in on it, but we have no evidence to suggest this is the case; we just have Bob's crazy idea.

 

That said, I do absolutely think that Mr. T thinks the way you ascribed to Cultivation; he is more than happy to sacrifice some so that humanity can survive (just so long as he's not one of the ones being sacrificed--he seems content to face judgment and punishment after the fact, but not before.  That's a rather different conversation, tho.)

 

As to Honor and Cultivation:

 

 

StormAtlas

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

[happyman he/him]

Since we have word of God (or at least, word of Honor) that Cultivation is better at seeing the future than Honor is, Cultivation does seem like a likely source of Mr. T's powers.  As if coming from the Nightwatcher wasn't already a hint.

[Shaggai]

The Diagram is Mr. T, not Cultivation.  Even if we assume that the expanded brainpower is of Cultivation (which I do), the Diagram is still of Mr. T and not Cultivation.  Let's use an example to clarify:

 

Bob is worried about his own safety, and the safety of his family and his neighbors.  So, he forms a Neighborhood Watch and goes to a smithy and buys a bunch of bows, crossbows, swords, pikes, and other weapons.  He and the Neighborhood Watch then set about killing literally every one else on the planet with these weapons.  This plan is of Bob, not necessarily the blacksmith.  The smith may have enabled the plan, and might even be in on it, but we have no evidence to suggest this is the case; we just have Bob's crazy idea.

 

That said, I do absolutely think that Mr. T thinks the way you ascribed to Cultivation; he is more than happy to sacrifice some so that humanity can survive (just so long as he's not one of the ones being sacrificed--he seems content to face judgment and punishment after the fact, but not before.  That's a rather different conversation, tho.)

 

As to Honor and Cultivation:

The Diagram is probably of Cultivation, at least in general methods (as opposed to specific methods or purpose). It is definitely of lowercase-c cultivation, from what we can tell, and the intelligence that formed it was of Cultivation. I would also rate it highly likely that the Shards affect the minds of Rosharans, which would be especially pronounced in T's case due to the Nightwatcher's gift. So you're right in that we can't predict what Cultivation thinks. Cultivation might not have the survival of humanity as an ultimate goal, and might not personally advocate the Diagram's methods. But the hypothetical idea of the Diagram - a long, subtle, complex plan to provide the highest chance of a certain goal being achieved - is of Cultivation.

[happyman he/him]

The Diagram is probably of Cultivation, at least in general methods (as opposed to specific methods or purpose). It is definitely of lowercase-c cultivation, from what we can tell, and the intelligence that formed it was of Cultivation. I would also rate it highly likely that the Shards affect the minds of Rosharans, which would be especially pronounced in T's case due to the Nightwatcher's gift. So you're right in that we can't predict what Cultivation thinks. Cultivation might not have the survival of humanity as an ultimate goal, and might not personally advocate the Diagram's methods. But the hypothetical idea of the Diagram - a long, subtle, complex plan to provide the highest chance of a certain goal being achieved - is of Cultivation.

 

Well said, and this is one of the ways magic consistently seems to work in the Cosmere.  A similar thing happened with the Lord Ruler when he held Preservations power: destroying to undo his mistakes wasn't in his mindset, even though he had barely taken the power.

[kaellok he/him]

 But the hypothetical idea of the Diagram - a long, subtle, complex plan to provide the highest chance of a certain goal being achieved - is of Cultivation.

Sure, the idea of it?  I'll buy that.  But the Diagram itself?  Nope.

[Shaggai]

Sure, the idea of it?  I'll buy that.  But the Diagram itself?  Nope.

The specifics of the Diagram are not of Cultivation. There are three levels to the Diagram - the base goal, the general way it plans to achieve that goal, and what it specifically says to do at any given time. The second one of those is entirely of Cultivation, and therefore the Diagram is of Cultivation. The goal is Taravangian's, the general methods are of Cultivation, and the specific directives are a product of the two. The Diagram is partially of Taravangian, certainly, but it is also of Cultivation.