Nomic, Again!

[+Doomstick he/him]

Come one, come all!

Welcome to Nomic, the game where the game is to create the game (as well as play it, of course).

Nomic has graced the forums of this most 17thest of Shards at least four (4) times, to varying levels of success and longevity.

This iteration will be based off of the (as far as I know) first instance of it on this website: this thread by MetaTerminal.

Other instances are here provided for insight on how unique each playing of this game is:

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/90874-nomic-resurrected/#comment-1016738

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/91680-imperial-nomic-the-final-empire/#comment-1050696

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/92732-imperial-nomic-the-shattered-plains/#comment-1103365

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/94459-imperial-nomic-the-court-of-gods/#comment-1201067

I will kindly ask you not to directly copy rules from any of these, but by all means take inspiration if you wish.


And now for the game!

All rules (Active, pending, rejected, amended, or repealed) are contained, along with the game state, in this google sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19mKIliIea9ef_voecpQSuQcAIMmxCFyV27M6VdN1wj8/edit?pli=1#gid=631198159

Please read the "Read Me!" section before interacting with the sheet, it provides important information about how it works with the game, how to use it, and certain disclaimers and expectations for use. (it's a little goofy looking, but it gets the job done)

 

I'll go first!:

I propose the following:

1) The Naming Rule: All proposals will have a unique name in addition to their number, this name is part of the proposal.

2) The Activity Ordinance: Each player has 24 hours to complete their turn. If 24 hours elapse without the completion of a turn, the player whose turn it was is considered an inactive player, and the turn is automatically passed. All players that are not inactive are considered active. Inactive players retain any information relating to their game state, but any votes cast by them are considered null and removed from the tally. Only active players are counted toward the number of players when determining a majority.

[Experience he/him]

I'm in, but I'm too tired to think straight rn. I'll figure out the spreadsheet in a bit

[Ravenclawjedi42]

I will be a part of this, even if I don’t quite understand it.
So, I write whether I vote yea or nay in the column?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Ravenclawjedi42

[+Doomstick he/him]

28 minutes ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I will be a part of this, even if I don’t quite understand it.
So, I write whether I vote yea or nay in the column?

Yes, but also say it here. Google sheets are easily edited and things can be lost by accident so it’s best to have a record. If you don’t really understand the sheet I can input it. Also tell me what you don’t understand so I can clarify. 
 

Right now it is @Experience’s turn, so you technically can’t vote on or propose anything yet.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Doomstick

[Ravenclawjedi42]

6 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

Yes, but also say it here. Google sheets are easily edited and things can be lost by accident so it’s best to have a record. If you don’t really understand the sheet I can input it. Also tell me what you don’t understand so I can clarify. 
 

Right now it is @Experience’s turn, so you technically can’t vote on or propose anything yet.

So you can only vote on your turn?

[+Doomstick he/him]

26 minutes ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

So you can only vote on your turn?

Well, I am mistaken, you can vote anytime!

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

Ooo! I'd like to join please!!

Also how many rules can we propose at once or is that a rule to be made?

Edited September 13, 2023 by The Wandering Wizard

[+Doomstick he/him]

1 hour ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

Ooo! I'd like to join please!!

Also how many rules can we propose at once or is that a rule to be made?

welcome to the game!
If it isn’t stated…

@Ravenclawjedi42, you’ve put some votes in your row. Two things:

1) if it isn’t said in this thread it hasn’t officially happened.

2) also add one (1) to the number in the appropriate column (aye, nay, or abstain) next to the proposals you are acting on in the “pending rules” sheet. There’s a thing that will calculate if it has enough votes there.

 

It’s important that we have these redundancies (and this thread as a way to check things) because otherwise if someone makes a mistake on the sheet it would be hard to figure out what went wrong, or if something even did go wrong. Things can get really confusing as more people and more rules join the game.

 

I really should make a “how to use the sheet” thing and put that in the first post.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Doomstick

[Ravenclawjedi42]

32 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

welcome to the game!
If it isn’t stated…

@Ravenclawjedi42, you’ve put some votes in your row. Two things:

1) if it isn’t said in this thread it hasn’t officially happened.

2) also add one (1) to the number in the appropriate column (aye, nay, or abstain) next to the proposals you are acting on in the “pending rules” sheet. There’s a thing that will calculate if it has enough votes there.

 

It’s important that we have these redundancies (and this thread as a way to check things) because otherwise if someone makes a mistake on the sheet it would be hard to figure out what went wrong, or if something even did go wrong. Things can get really confusing as more people and more rules join the game.

 

I really should make a “how to use the sheet” thing and put that in the first post.

Ohhhhhh, okay. In that case I vote yea for the Naming Rule, and abstain from The Activity Ordinance.

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

And I yea for The naming rule and the activity ordinance.

[+Doomstick he/him]

The Naming Rule has been Passed

@Experience it is still your turn (if you're not ready you can just pass your turn)

Edited September 13, 2023 by Doomstick

[xinoehp512 he/him]

I will join the game and vote yes for the activity ordinance.

@Doomstick that should pass the rule, I believe.

@Ravenclawjedi42, that means it's your turn now, since @Experience is now inactive.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by xinoehp512

[Ravenclawjedi42]

5 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

I will join the game and vote yes for the activity ordinance.

@Doomstick that should pass the rule, I believe.

@Ravenclawjedi42, that means it's your turn now, since @Experience is now inactive.

 

All right.

I propose: 3. the dice rule. At the start of each turn you must roll an unweighted six-sided die that will decide your value for that turn.

and 4. the Rule of Limitations: you cannot submit more than three rules per turn.

I should add both of these to the sheet, right?

Edit: also I vote yea for both of these.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Ravenclawjedi42

[+Doomstick he/him]

55 minutes ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

All right.

I propose: 3. the dice rule. At the start of each turn you must roll an unweighted six-sided die that will decide your value for that turn.

and 4. the Rule of Limitations: you cannot submit more than three rules per turn.

I should add both of these to the sheet, right?

Edit: also I vote yea for both of these.

Yeah, add them

 

I vote Aye on proposal 4 and Nay on proposal 3 (what is “value”?)

[Ravenclawjedi42]

Just now, Doomstick said:

Yeah, add them

 

I vote Aye on proposal 4 and Nay on proposal 3 (what is “value”?)

I was thinking that “value” was something that would be decided upon in a later rule.

[+Doomstick he/him]

Just now, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I was thinking that “value” was something that would be decided upon in a later rule.

Valid, just as it is the dice rule does nothing

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

I will vote aye on proposal 3 and nay on proposal 4

I propose. 5 the rule of the sacred dice. The value that you roll on the six sided die becomes your new possible rule submission on that turn.

And I also propose. 6 The store of unimaginable wealth. The store contains items that can be bought that can give certain advantages. The store also only accepts the currency of dollar bucks.

I also vote yea to proposals 5 and 6

[+Doomstick he/him]

I vote nay on proposal 5 due to lack of clarity

I abstain from rule 6

[Experience he/him]

Umm. Probably better if I withdraw from this (for now at least). Sorry for the inconvenience.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

4 hours ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I propose: 3. the dice rule. At the start of each turn you must roll an unweighted six-sided die that will decide your value for that turn.

I fear that people would just cheat, so I'm afraid I will have to vote nay for this (3) and the derivative rule (5).

4 hours ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

4. the Rule of Limitations: you cannot submit more than three rules per turn.

I am of the opinion that more rule proposals is better, so nay.

I will vote yea to proposal 6. Money money money.

 

I propose PR 7: The Referee Rule

If there isn't a referee, players may vote for a player as referee. Upon a majority vote of more than three players, said player (the referee-elect) may either accept or reject the role of referee. (If 24 hours elapse before they make a decision, they automatically reject.) If the referee-elect rejects the role, all referee votes for them are nullified. If they accept, they become the referee.
The referee cannot win the game. If the game state becomes broken for any reason (e.g. an illegal action is taken and not caught immediately), the referee may make an Executive Decision, changing any part of game state they deem necessary to resolve the violation.

It is inevitable that someone will break the rules at some point by mistake and no one will realize until a whole bunch of decisions have been made from that point. Having a way to resolve such situations is critical.

I also propose PR 8: The Constant Action Rule

Each player may make one rule proposal on each other player's turn. Rule proposals made this way may not exceed 50 words or 300 characters.

Even with the inactivity rule, 24 hours is a long time to wait. If this rule is implemented, there will always be something for people to do.

I also propose PR 9: The Cleanup Rule

If a player loses the game, leaves the game, or otherwise concedes, (or has lost, has left, or has conceded) all data relating to that player in the game state is deleted.

Although this is the rule in the spreadsheet, technically speaking it doesn't hold for the official game state. If this rule is implemented, we don't have to worry about a desync between the two. (That is to say, once a player leaves they are officially gone.)

I also propose PR 10: The Trading Card Rule

There are seven trading cards. They are:

1. The Ace of Spades
2. The Two of Wands
3. Three Headed Dragon
4. Black Clover
5. The Ouroboros
6. Beehive
7. Seven-Pointed Star

If a player collects all of the trading cards, they win the game.

This rule is my proposed win condition for the game. IIRC, most of the other Nomic games were one with a simple points tally. This should be much more interesting.

@Doomstick If I count correctly, I believe the rule of limitations is in a 2-2 deadlock. Since I already made my post, I will refrain from proposing a rule to deal with ties: might you?

I will also note that there is currently nowhere in the rules that defines when a rule is rejected, only when it is approved. That might be a good thing to add as well.

Edit 2: Realized I forgot to aye all my new rules. I officially aye PRs 7-10.

Edited September 13, 2023 by xinoehp512

[+Doomstick he/him]

I vote Aye for PR#s 7-10

I propose the following:

Quote

11: The Easy Aye Rule: The player who proposes a proposal automatically votes Aye for it, unless otherwise stated.

12: The Moderator Rule: (amendment to PR#7, if PR#7 fails, this proposal automatically fails. Text inside these parentheses is not included in the rule should it pass) Any instance of the word "referee" in The Referee Rule or any rule stemming from it is replaced by the word "Moderator." "Moderator" is a proper noun in this usage.

13: The Gameboard Rule: A 17x17 grid of squares with columns labelled A-Q from left to right and rows labelled 1-17 from top to bottom will serve as a gameboard. All players have a game piece, which starts on square I7.

14: The Referee's Secondary Duty: (if PR# 7 or 10 fail, this proposal automatically fails. Text inside these parentheses is not included in the rule should it pass) All trading cards with unstated status are held by the referee if there is one, as long as the referee cannot win. If the player loses the title of referee, they lose all trading cards they hold.

15: A Better Way to Count: All numbers in the game will be in base 6 (also known as seximal or senary). All existing PR#s, ER#s, RRA#s, and text referencing those numbers, as well as the text of rules with ER#s smaller than this rule's ER# will be changed to reflect this, keeping the numbers' values constant. The text of rules with ER#s greater than this rule's ER# will be assumed to be written in seximal (16 and 28 will be rewritten as 20 and 32, respectively, and this pattern will follow for any number that has a numeral greater than 5), this potentially includes rules proposed before this rule was passed). Non-numeral forms of numbers will be written according to the guide on seximal.net.

16: The Activity Ordinance (amendment): Add the text "A player may choose to gain the inactive status. They may choose to regain active status any time they wish to. Any inactive player's turn is automatically skipped." to the end of ER#6.

17: Movement Points: (if PR# 13 fails, this proposal automatically fails. Text inside these parentheses is not included in the rule should it pass) If a rule is passed, the player who proposed it gains 1 movement point (MP), if there were no "Nay" votes, they gain 1 additional movement point. Players may spend 1 movement point on their turn to move their game piece to an orthogonally adjacent space on the game board. Players may spend 3 movement points to make two diagonal moves of one space each on the game board. Players may spend movement points in the ways described in this rule as many times per turn as they wish, as long as they have enough movement points to do so.

18: Rejection :(: Upon a majority vote of 3 or more nay votes, a proposal is rejected.

reasonings:

Quote

11: makes things simpler

12: I like the word moderator better than referee, also it's a reference to a great legacy board game called King's Dilemma which is really fun.

13: Gameboards are a common feature of Nomic games. 17x17 because 17th shard, lettering and numbering because of how google sheets works.

14: I have some vague ideas about the referee/Moderator giving out quests that can be completed for the cards or putting them on the game board or something like that.

15: it's goofy and I like seximal

16: there was nothing saying that an inactive player's later turns are skipped. Also this allows people to preemptively go inactive so they don't make people wait 24 hours before they can skip the turn.

17: what's a gameboard without movement rules?

18: rejection

I vote Aye for PR#s 11-18.

I'm not going to do anything about ties. IMO they should stay there until we get a tiebreaker (or maybe there can be a later rule about a time limit?)

@Ravenclawjedi42 I pass the turn to you.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Doomstick

[xinoehp512 he/him]

I like the idea of amending proposals, however I am concerned that their text only refers to them failing as proposals. If one were to be passed before its dependent rule, it would be a rule and not a proposal- and in addition, the text would disappear, so it wouldn't be able to remove itself anyways!

As a more systemic solution, we should probably create a rule that allows us to propose amendments to proposals directly (without needing the extra text); if the amendment passes, the rule it amends automatically passes as well. That way there will never be dangling amendments.

I will aye PR#s 11-14. (Something I forgot is that the Referee/Moderator cannot be allowed to alter the Referee rule, so we should create an amendment for that.)

43 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

15: A Better Way to Count: All numbers in the game will be in base 6 (also known as seximal or senary). All existing PR#s, ER#s, RRA#s, and text referencing those numbers, as well as the text of rules with ER#s smaller than this rule's ER# will be changed to reflect this, keeping the numbers' values constant. The text of rules with ER#s greater than this rule's ER# will be assumed to be written in seximal (16 and 28 will be rewritten as 20 and 32, respectively, and this pattern will follow for any number that has a numeral greater than 5), this potentially includes rules proposed before this rule was passed). Non-numeral forms of numbers will be written according to the guide on seximal.net.

Funny , but oh boy would that be a headache. Nay, I'm afraid.

44 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

16: The Activity Ordinance (amendment): Add the text "A player may choose to gain the inactive status. They may choose to regain active status any time they wish to. Any inactive player's turn is automatically skipped." to the end of ER#6.

As the first amendment to an active rule, I am curious: how will an amendment be represented on the sheet?

I will aye PR#2 16-18.

[+Doomstick he/him]

1 hour ago, xinoehp512 said:

As the first amendment to an active rule, I am curious: how will an amendment be represented on the sheet?

The original row will be hidden, and it will get a new ER#, the original version will be put in the RRA subsheet with the correct RRA#.

Quote

I like the idea of amending proposals, however I am concerned that their text only refers to them failing as proposals. If one were to be passed before its dependent rule, it would be a rule and not a proposal- and in addition, the text would disappear, so it wouldn't be able to remove itself anyways!

I assume that those who vote Nay on the independent proposal won’t vote Aye on the dependent proposal, but yeah a systemic solution would be good.

Quote

Funny , but oh boy would that be a headache. Nay, I'm afraid.

 but goofy. (Also we have to get some headachey stuff in here sometime; an easily understandable Nomic game is a bad Nomic game imo :P) also there’s a base change function on Google sheets, so it wouldn’t be that bad to input.

I will change my abstain for PR#6 to an Aye, causing it to pass.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Doomstick

[Ravenclawjedi42]

I was gone for a few hours…and now there are so many rules.

I vote aye for 5, 9, 10, 11, 13, 16, 17, and 18, nay for 7, 8, and 15, and abstain from the others (I’m not going to explain my reasoning, since I don’t feel like writing that much (Laziness!)). 

I propose: The Rule of Mosquitos: there is also a rare card called the mosquito, anyone who has this card is incapable winning the game, and it must be given to someone else to be able to win.

Edit: I am very sorry, but I don’t have time right now to completely change the document, if somebody could finish that for me that would be amazing, or I can do it tomorrow at some point, but that may be a bit of time.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Ravenclawjedi42

[+Doomstick he/him]

PR#s 9, 10, 11, 13, 16, 17, and 18 have passed, and the passage of PR#18 with no nays gives me 2 movement points.

I will abstain from PR#19 (the rule of mosquitos)