Thoughts on the events of Sel

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

Disclaimer for the Cosmere works I’ve read: The Mistborn Trilogy and The Eleventh Metal, Elantris and Hope of Elantris, The Emperor’s Soul, Selish system essay

 

I’m finally becoming Cosmere aware. I now know that Ruin and Preservation are beings known as the Shards of Adonalsium, who was mentioned in one of Sazed’s epigraphs. I’ve finally learned that the Dor is the Splintered Investiture of two Shards of Adonalsium - Devotion and Dominion. I don’t get what Splintered means, but it sounds like the people who took up the Shards were killed by another Shard, separated from them in a different way than Vin w/ Ruin, and were sent into the Beyond. Guess the Beyond is the Cosmere’s afterlife.

It says the Shards were “contained” - trapped on the Cognitive Realm. So that’s why Raoden always described the Dor as gas or pressure trying to escape! It probably wanted to make its way into the Physical Realm! The Selish system essay said most forms of Investiture reside in the Spiritual Realm, and I guess Shards are the same way. The only way I can see the Dor happening is with another Shard. I guess this means a Shard killed Devotion and Dominion, and transferred their essence from the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive Realm.

The author says the Shards’ forced location in the Cognitive has caused Selish magic to rely on physical position, perception and intent. Language shapes the magic. Apparently because the Cognitive Realm has distinct locations. We saw language, perception and intent with AonDor, and potentially Dakhor. I think I saw Shai use MaiPon symbols for her soulstamps, and the Bloodsealer in a way. ChayShan uses JinDo dances. But I don’t get how location works for systems outside of AonDor.

I wonder if this means Fjorden and Rose Empire’s conquests have directly influenced the amount of systems on Sel. Shai said that a person’s perception of objects influences the object’s view of itself, courtesy of the Cognitive Realm. So… what if these countries eventually viewing themselves as territories of the empires erased or altered the existence of older magic. 

This is all very interesting and complex, but I have suspicions the Dor and Cognitive nature of Selish magic won’t always exist. At least not in the same way.

Now… I know that the Dor being pressure probably refers to wanting to go from the Cognitive to its natural places in the Spiritual and Physical Realms. But some stuff in Elantris is still very weird.

During the Sanderlanche, Raoden had a mysterious vision of the Chasm line’s importance. He heard a voice in the Lake, which is likely either Devotion or Dominion. The Reod is a whole mystery. Raoden had unique talent with AonDor, and Adien’s talent with numbers came at the right time for Aon Tia. Fjon’s thoughts implied that Wyrn has precognitive powers, something that required pure pieces of a Shard (atium and the Well) in Mistborn.

According to the Selish system essay, Devotion and Dominion aren’t strangers to divine intervention. They directly influenced the development of human societies, traditions, religions, languages and alphabets. All during Sel’s prehistory. The author believes society slowly discovered the powers, implying that magic might’ve existed in some form before Devotion and Dominion were killed. MaiPon ancestors believed that soulstone is the souls of broken gods. Elantrians somehow knew about the Dor and used the Lake as a place of worship. Oh, and it turns out seon and skaze are pieces of them, known as Splinters.

We saw that Preservation and Ruin influenced these aspects of Scadrian history to their own ends. Ruin to subvert people, free himself and spread Hemalurgy. Preservation to implant multiple schemes and pawns throughout Scadrial’s history, I think. Then there’s the Terris who were probably granted Feruchemy by both of the creator-Shards. I think Devotion and Dominion are in a similar boat, though one that’s less clear because we lack content about Sel.

Devotion means dedication, love and loyalty. Dominion means power and control. If there are any Shards who can create plans for their deaths, I think it would be them.

I’m not saying Raoden specifically will get into the same boat as Sazed, being the person who takes up both Devotion and Dominion. Or that he will take up one Shard like Vin. But I think someone will in the Elantris sequels, giving an important conclusion and allowing Selish magic systems to have more freedom than before. I think Fjorden’s conquest and Elantris’ mysterious history is leading up to this event.

Also, I’m worried about the Shard that Splintered Devotion and Dominion. 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[Firesong]

I will say, that you have interpreted a lot of it correctly. 

One reason that Investiture wants to escape so much is that Investiture follows the Second Law of Thermodynamics, it doesn't like being densely compacted into one volume, and seeks to flow from a place of higher concentration to lower concentration in an attempt to equalize. This is also why when people get really Invested they tend to start glowing, as the human body is not a perfect vessel for Investiture, and thus it leaks out to try to equalize. AonDor, for instance, creates a hole into the Cognitive Realm that lets Dor flow out, influenced by various factor to manifest as specific phenomena. 

I will also say, Intent is very important in all systems of Invested Arts, not just in Dor-centric ones. The main influences of the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm is in the fact that it is location-centric, it weakens as you move away from it and eventually just peters out completely. The shape of the land having importance is directly tied to this. 

On the Beyond, we don't really know and never will. Brandon actively says he won't say if it is the afterlife, or simply oblivion. He wants to allow fans and in-universe characters to think what they want on if an afterlife exists or not, and not be canonically wrong about that. So if you want to think it is the afterlife, you aren't canonically wrong.  

On someone taking up the Dor as a Shard, yeah, I also believe that that would happen, for some reasons that are spoilers. But it likely won't be Raoden. Brandon has talked about how he plans for Elantris 2 to focus on Kaise and Aiden and such, and we know basically nothing on Elantris 3. It seems in general the focus is shifting away from him as his story is basically done. A non-spoiler reason is just, he talked about how the Elantris Trilogy will be one of the three primary pillars of the Cosmere alongside Mistborn and Stormlight, so something very big is going to be happening in books 2 and 3 to make it important for the cosmere as a whole. (also, if you want to refer to them individually, the Vessels for Dominion and Devotion were both she/her, despite what the fanart implies. We used to think Dominion was a dude just due to assumptions, Brandon corrected that assumption.)

 

And yes, we do know who that Shard is, and you are right to be very worried. Won't say anything more due to spoilers.

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the forums.

@Firesong hit most of the highlights, so I'll just mention a few odds and ends:

On 8/1/2023 at 1:57 PM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I’m finally becoming Cosmere aware.

Congratulations and apologies. Your will never be the same. . . 

On 8/1/2023 at 1:57 PM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

 We saw language, perception and intent with AonDor, and potentially Dakhor. I think I saw Shai use MaiPon symbols for her soulstamps, and the Bloodsealer in a way. ChayShan uses JinDo dances.

Yes, Raoden noticed that the bone grew into a shape based on old Fjordish script; also, the motions created by ChayShan are implied to be based on old JinDo language as "drawn" using motion from the whole body (as opposed to writing with a finger tip).

Shai does note that the "closing mark" on a Soul Stamp is shaped like MaiPon (no confirmation on if the same "closing mark" is used by Resealers and Bloodsealers - or if they have a different mark for their arts). 

On 8/1/2023 at 1:57 PM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

 Adien’s talent with numbers came at the right time for Aon Tia.

Sanderson has confirmed that Adien is on the autism Spectrum - his "talent" for numbers is similar to math savants in real life.

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Fjon’s thoughts implied that Wyrn has precognitive powers, something that required pure pieces of a Shard (atium and the Well) in Mistborn.

We have some ideas on this, but there is not a solid answer yet. To say more is <spoiler>.

Quote

Oh, and it turns out seon and skaze are pieces of them, known as Splinters.

This is a slight spoiler - but not for any specific stories, so I will put it in a tag and you can decide if you want to peek:

Spoiler

• Splinter - a significant measure of a Shard's power that has been separated from the main body of Investiture. 
  • Splinters may be created purposefully or as a product of some other action
• Splintered - A Shard (or other quantified Sapient Investiture) to be fragmented in such a way that it cannot reform on its own.
• Vessel - A Sapient being that "holds" (controls/works-with) a measure of Investiture (Uusually a Shard - e. g. Vin was (briefly) Preservation's Vessel)
• Sliver - A being that has, at some point, been a Vessel for Investiture (e. g. The Lord Ruler being called a "Sliver of Infinity" after having held the power at the Well)
• Avatar - A semi-autonomous persona for a Shard that may be developed purposefully or "without a conscious decision on the Shard's part"
  • Note: Splinters are separate from their parent shard (though possibly Connected), but Avatars will still be "part" of the Shard from which they were formed
  • Avatars can also have a Vessel, but do not require a Vessel

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Also, I’m worried about the Shard that Splintered Devotion and Dominion. 

You will find out more in The Stormlight Archive - though I would highly recommend reading Warbreaker first. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Firesong]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the forums.

@Firesong hit most of the highlights, so I'll just mention a few odds and ends:

Congratulations and apologies. Your will never be the same. . . 

Yes, Raoden noticed that the bone grew into a shape based on old Fjoden script; also, the motions created by ChayShan are implied to be based on old JinDo language as "drawn" using motion from teh whole body (as opposed to writing with a finger tip). Shai does note that the "closing mark" on a Soul Stamp is shaped like MaiPon (no confirmation on if the same "closing mark" is used by Resealers and Bloodsealers - or if they have a different mark for their arts). 

Sandserson has confirmed that Adien is onthe autism Spectrum - his "talent" for numbers is similar to math savants in real life.

We have some ideas on this, but there is not a solid answer yet. To say more is <spoiler>.

This is a slight spoiler - but not for any specific stories, so I will put it in a tag and you can decide if you want to peek:

  Reveal hidden contents

• Splinter - a significant measure of a Shard's power that has been separated from the main body of Investiture. 
  • Splinters may be created purposefully or as a product of some other action
• Splintered - A Shard (or other quantified Sapient Investiture) to be fragmented in such a way that it cannot reform on its own.
• Vessel - A Sapient being that "holds" (controls/works-with) a measure of Investiture (Uusually a Shard - e. g. Vin was (briefly) Preservation's Vessel)
• Sliver - A being that has, at some point, been a Vessel for Investiture (e. g. The Lord Ruler being called a "Sliver of Infinity" after having held the power at the Well)
• Avatar - A Ssemi-autonomous persona for a Shard that may be developed purposefully or "without a conscious decision on the Shard's part"
  • Note: Splinters are separate from their parent shard (though possibly Connected), but Avatars will still be "part" of the Shard from which they were formed
  • Avatars can also have a Vessel, but do not require a Vessel

You will find out more in The Stormlight Archive - though I would highly recommend reading Warbreaker first. 

On Adien, he also said that he isn't happy with how he did Adien due to how poorly handled his autism was, as he only really knew Autistic people from TV and such. He has since written far better done autistic characters (via more research and also having a few close friends that are autistic), which let him understand it far more. He plans to deal with Adien far better in Elantris 2 with his increased understanding of how to write such characters. (and as an autistic gal, I really appreciate his care)

Also, the way you misspelled Sanderson's name reminded me of the 2021 Mainland China Mistborn covers. Which called him Senderson, for some reason. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

On Adien, he also said that he isn't happy with how he did Adien due to how poorly handled his autism was, as he only really knew Autistic people from TV and such. He has since written far better done autistic characters (via more research and also having a few close friends that are autistic), which let him understand it far more. He plans to deal with Adien far better in Elantris 2 with his increased understanding of how to write such characters. (and as an autistic gal, I really appreciate his care)

Exactly right - sorry I was less than thorough in my rushed response.

Quote

Also, the way you misspelled Sanderson's name reminded me of the 2021 Mainland China Mistborn covers. Which called him Senderson, for some reason. 

My Lysdexia is showing. . . I'm sorry. SPAG fixed.

[Firesong]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Exactly right - sorry I was less than thorough in my rushed response.

My Lysdexia is showing. . . I'm sorry. SPAG fixed.

Oh, I thought it was a joke, my own bad on that. 

But still though, what was up with those covers? It wasn't just a general Chinese copy issue, as other Chinese editions of his books got it right, it was just that one run of them. 

[Treamayne]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:24 PM, Firesong said:

Oh, I thought it was a joke, my own bad on that. 

But still though, what was up with those covers? It wasn't just a general Chinese copy issue, as other Chinese editions of his books got it right, it was just that one run of them. 

No worries, I wasn't familiar with the covers you mention - but I do usually re-read my posts right after posting to check for errors (hence many of my posts showing spelling and grammar (SPAG) edits) - and I had failed to do so. So, as they say in Office Space "I fixed the glitch."

Edited August 28, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 8/1/2023 at 2:39 PM, Firesong said:

 

One reason that Investiture wants to escape so much is that Investiture follows the Second Law of Thermodynamics, it doesn't like being densely compacted into one volume, and seeks to flow from a place of higher concentration to lower concentration in an attempt to equalize. This is also why when people get really Invested they tend to start glowing, as the human body is not a perfect vessel for Investiture, and thus it leaks out to try to equalize. AonDor, for instance, creates a hole into the Cognitive Realm that lets Dor flow out, influenced by various factor to manifest as specific phenomena. 

The scientific principles behind Cosmere powers are so interesting! I'm reading the Alloy of Law, and I can already tell this is going to be fun. The iron Feruchemy and steel Allomancy combo is so good.

Quote

I will also say, Intent is very important in all systems of Invested Arts, not just in Dor-centric ones. The main influences of the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm is in the fact that it is location-centric, it weakens as you move away from it and eventually just peters out completely. The shape of the land having importance is directly tied to this. 

I wonder if this plays into Forgery and Bloodsealing. I don't remember Shai commenting anything about those systems getting weaker depending on distance. 

Quote

On someone taking up the Dor as a Shard, yeah, I also believe that that would happen, for some reasons that are spoilers. But it likely won't be Raoden. Brandon has talked about how he plans for Elantris 2 to focus on Kaise and Aiden and such, and we know basically nothing on Elantris 3. It seems in general the focus is shifting away from him as his story is basically done. A non-spoiler reason is just, he talked about how the Elantris Trilogy will be one of the three primary pillars of the Cosmere alongside Mistborn and Stormlight, so something very big is going to be happening in books 2 and 3 to make it important for the cosmere as a whole. (also, if you want to refer to them individually, the Vessels for Dominion and Devotion were both she/her, despite what the fanart implies. We used to think Dominion was a dude just due to assumptions, Brandon corrected that assumption.

Completely agree with you. And thanks for clarifying the pronouns of the Vessels. 

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And yes, we do know who that Shard is, and you are right to be very worried. Won't say anything more due to spoilers.

Oh no. I'm excited to see them one day. Hopefully I can RAFO sooner rather than later. 

 

@Treamayne

Quote

Congratulations and apologies. Your will never be the same. . . 

Damn Cosmere XD

Quote

Yes, Raoden noticed that the bone grew into a shape based on old Fjordish script; also, the motions created by ChayShan are implied to be based on old JinDo language as "drawn" using motion from the whole body (as opposed to writing with a finger tip).

Shai does note that the "closing mark" on a Soul Stamp is shaped like MaiPon (no confirmation on if the same "closing mark" is used by Resealers and Bloodsealers - or if they have a different mark for their arts). 

Thanks for confirming this about soulstamps. I forgot about it lol.

Quote

Sanderson has confirmed that Adien is on the autism Spectrum - his "talent" for numbers is similar to math savants in real life.

Thank you. Though, I'm not sure I'd completely dismiss the idea of Devotion and Dominion being involved. I'm not saying they would have caused Adien's autism. Not because they can't, but because that's a can of worms I think we agree shouldn't be opened. 

I'm saying Devotion and Dominion may have a degree of influence over Adien's hypercalculia because of what we saw from Preservation and Ruin. They can manipulate memories and mental speed. And on the theorycrafting side, I personally believe Kwaan's photographic memory and knowledge of Ruin's "blindness" to metal was crafted by Preservation as part of his Grand Design. 

Quote

You will find out more in The Stormlight Archive - though I would highly recommend reading Warbreaker first. 

Those will be read after Secret History.