So the machine

[Asmodean he/him]

How did the machine get Awakened in the first place? It seems like the yoki-hijo were the only humans that showed any signs of Investiture, and we have seen that Awakening metal objects takes a lot of Breathes and therefore a lot of Investiture.

 

The small machine was able to be kick-started by a single spirit, but it seems like that wouldn't nearly be enough to match the 1000 Breathes, or however many, that it takes to Awaken a non-human object like that. Especially since that even happened 1700 years ago so probably even before the contemporary novels.

 

Or maybe I just missed something

[T-mo]

From what I gathered the machine maybe could have been just mechanical at the start, with the added functionality of sucking and crunching spectating spirits/souls/investiture for perpetually usable energy after the initial start-up? There were enough people around in the ancient civilization (there is a mention of thousands potential nightmares inside the shroud), assuming that each held an equivalent of around 1 Breath's worth of investiture.

Obviously not sure, just what I was thinking. At the grand battle, Hoid mentions almost as an aside that the machine had gained some awareness via acting as a nexus for so much investiture. But I took that to mean that it wasn't fully awakened, but mostly mechanical, like a robot. Although that might contradict somewhat with the high-functioning AI-nature with which it was commandeering the scholars and other nightmares.

[Firesong she/her]

Well, the book takes place in the far future, they have space stations and even a civilization said to be rather simple and unadvanced could travel to different planets. So, it is possible that even that disaster 1700 years back was after current novels. 

And also, we don't know how Invested the Hijo are. And also, the prototype machine didn't show full awareness. The Father Machine showed some level of mechanical awareness, however, due to being the nexus of so much Investiture, as T-mo stated. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

This far into the Cosmere's future, the Invested Arts have been fudged somewhat, and the lines between them are blurred. I mentioned this on another thread, but they're beginning to be grouped by effect rather than the means that create that effect. For example, Illusions are referred to as Lightweaving, no matter whether they've been created by Aons, Rosharan Lightweaving, or Yolish Lightweaving. The same goes for teleportation, you could call it Elsecalling, even if it's achieved through Dakhor, Aon Tia, or through actual Transportation Surgebinding. Here, Awakening most likely does not refer to Nalthian Breath-dependent Awakening, but rather to an automated machine powered by Investiture, which means the rules change. Breaths look to mimic life, and because rocks and steel have never been alive and are far removed from it, a lot of Breaths are required to Awaken them. Applying Hijo to Awaken something, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily have this problem. They're from a different Shard, and one that's based on artistry, creativity, and reimagination no less. Besides, the Hijo are also heavily Invested, though how much isn't known.

Not only that, the Hijo aren't needed to make the entire thing function either. They're just Investiture being converted into energy to power the machine. It's like having Investiture take on the form of a car and then also power it, as opposed to already having a car and just using Investiture as a battery. You'll need more of it to both form the car and then power it, and less to just power a pre-existing car. Nalthian Awakening requires the Breath to both power a Construct and create the mechanisms it uses to power said Construct within it, which it usually does by following the patterns of life and the visualization of the Awakener. For example, if you Awaken a rug to lift you up onto a wall, you need to Command it to "Lift (Me)", while imagining exactly what you mean when you say "Lift (me)". In response, the Breath will enter the rug, then try and decide what form is best to achieve what you want it to do. In this case, let's say it decides that the best way is to fashion the rug into a giant hand. It will bend and roll the rug into the form of a hand, with approximations of ligaments, tendons, and muscles to facilitate the movement, with one end of the rug bracing on the floor or wall, maintain that form so that the movement is possible (all of which requires effort from the Breath), and then grabbing you and lifting you onto the wall, which requires even more work done by the Breath. The more life-like it can make itself, the less force will be required of the Breath to exert. This can range from something like a Lifeless, where it's so life-like and has pre-existing motor systems that all the Breath needs to do is provide the energy required to move (requiring the minimum of a single Breath), to a carpet made of wool, which is flexible and was once alive (and so can be manipulated into having motor systems, requiring a couple of Breaths to form and maintain the shape, then some more to provide the energy needed to move), all the way up to something made of stone or steel, which doesn't have any motor systems at all and was never alive, requiring an inordinate amount of Breaths to get it to do anything.

What's going on with the Father Machine, meanwhile, is a pre-existing construct that only needs Investiture to power itself. The Hijo (and the souls of the people of Torio, at one point) are glorified batteries, used to provide energy to the Machine for it to be able to move. It's not Awakening as a Nalthian would call it, but rather just a machine trying to fulfill its code (Which becomes a Command, once Investiture is involved) that's powered by Investiture. If you infused the Machine with Breaths (with either a botched Command or through a Breath-transferring Command such as "My Life To Yours, My Breath Become Yours" or "My Breath To Give For Life To Live"), it would probably feed on them the same way and continue to function and be called an Awakened Construct, despite it not being actually Awakened with Commanded Investiture.

Also, the Machine became sentient after holding thousands of Hijos' worth of Investiture for nearly two thousand years. Hoid says that after being Invested for so long, it would have had to be at least a little sentient by now, but he doesn't say that it's necessarily only a little sentient. So the Father Machine could have been fully sentient too.

[Nyrrix]

I would postulate that the Father Machine may be working as an Investiture pump, on some level. We already know from The Stormlight Archive (especially according to Navani's book 4 chapters) that Investiture can have differentials similar to pressure systems.

 

In this case, Father Machine may have needed to be primed in some way. But without a set of hijo already available, it pushed human spirits to start the process. While they were going through (and creating the waste in Investiture in the form of the Shroud), Father Machine could start stacking and attracting hijo. After it got those first hijo, it began to fulfill its purpose in true and began the process of making hion. It stopped using human souls (but kept the yoki-hijo imprisoned because they were classified as a threat to its Intent). The pump could be perpetuated since the stacked stones created a "positive" pressure on the input side and the hion a "negative" pressure on the outside (sorry if I mix up terms for pressures, I'm still an undergrad). Painter's people used hion, so the differential was maintained, and the Father Machine probably needed the differential to run (similar to how a dam's computer systems and lighting might be powered by its own turbines).

 

This brings up other weird questions, like "Why do human souls produce the Shroud and not hion?" And if these are pressure differentials, "Why didn't Father Machine stop working immediately after society fell, since the hion couldn't be used (presumably) immediately after by humans? (The pressures would have equalized and the spirits probably dispersed when it stopped stacking)."

 

That's just a theory. But I find it compelling. It falls somewhat in line with how Spren are captured in gems (by removing some investure from a sphere). This could be that on a larger scale. Investure extiting and hijo entering in response

If this is the case, it's a different function that seems like it would need less investure to get going and less investiture for the process to be maintained. As others have said, Nalthian awakening does a lot more than what Father Machine seems to do. Nalthian Awakening is also a (comparatively) static system, so it needs to be stable. Ergo, probably needs more Investiture (as seen by Night blood being the most invested entity in the Cosmere, barring shards and some splinters and avatars).

[Asmodean he/him]

These are all very good points.

 

Another thing I am wondering, so the Shroud existed for 1700 years, constantly attracting new Spirits. But why would the Shroud dissipate almost immediately when the machine is stopped? Surely after the initial slaughter of the nation 1700 years ago they only got a trickle of Spirits afterwards. So why would the Shroud persist the entire time but then go away so quickly?

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

1 hour ago, Asmodean said:

These are all very good points.

 

Another thing I am wondering, so the Shroud existed for 1700 years, constantly attracting new Spirits. But why would the Shroud dissipate almost immediately when the machine is stopped? Surely after the initial slaughter of the nation 1700 years ago they only got a trickle of Spirits afterwards. So why would the Shroud persist the entire time but then go away so quickly?

It answers this in the text, on page 432. The shroud is a byproduct of that initial activation made up of tens of thousands of shredded and melded Identities. Because these souls were transformed by the Machine, they became Connected to it, and they didn't have the Investiture or Identity to separate from it. They were subject to the Father Machine's will, trapped there in bondage to serve. The Scholars also mention this, how they had become a part of the Machine's consciousness. 

It was only because the yoki-hijo were so innately Invested (their Spiritual and Cognitve Aspects so strong) that they were able to pull themselves together, against the Machine's will, over time. 

When the machine was finally destroyed, that Connection was severed, allowing all the souls and fragments of souls to enter the Beyond; thus the shroud dissipated. 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

8 hours ago, Nyrrix said:

 

This is really well put! If I may, I'd like to throw my two cents at some of the weird questions

8 hours ago, Nyrrix said:

This brings up other weird questions, like "Why do human souls produce the Shroud and not hion?" 

The Hion is a mass produced commodity that the Machine was Commanded to make; it's a specific outcome. The Shroud is the messy byproduct made from a bunch of shredded Identity and Investiture, which can be molded into anything given a strong Intent (this is what the Painters do). Think of the Investiture the Machine is bringing in like a log of wood. The hion is sheets of paper, replicated infinitely. The Shroud is a bunch of wooden planks, shavings and offcuts. 

8 hours ago, Nyrrix said:

And if these are pressure differentials, "Why didn't Father Machine stop working immediately after society fell, since the hion couldn't be used (presumably) immediately after by humans? (The pressures would have equalized and the spirits probably dispersed when it stopped stacking).

Likely because it took time to produce the first hion stubs, like a computer booting up. The Machine is basically an assembly line for Investiture - it takes in the raw Hijo and converts that into more useable Hion, whilst stealing a little bit to keep itself functional.  And like the flyers and spirt lights that the yoki-hijo made, I believe these physical hijo manifestations (as in, each spirit in their own time) would eventually fade (possibly after 7-ish years) and the spirits would return into the ground and eventually get drawn back to the Machine. Those using the Hion wouldn't notice, as there would always be another new spirit to take its place. 

[Asmodean he/him]

6 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said:

It answers this in the text, on page 432. The shroud is a byproduct of that initial activation made up of tens of thousands of shredded and melded Identities. Because these souls were transformed by the Machine, they became Connected to it, and they didn't have the Investiture or Identity to separate from it. They were subject to the Father Machine's will, trapped there in bondage to serve. The Scholars also mention this, how they had become a part of the Machine's consciousness. 

It was only because the yoki-hijo were so innately Invested (their Spiritual and Cognitve Aspects so strong) that they were able to pull themselves together, against the Machine's will, over time. 

When the machine was finally destroyed, that Connection was severed, allowing all the souls and fragments of souls to enter the Beyond; thus the shroud dissipated. 

I must have glossed right over that.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

10 hours ago, Asmodean said:

I must have glossed right over that.

All good! Tends to happen when you're dealing with books this dense