Heralds and Spren

[Moogle]

Here's a question: why did the Heralds never attract any spren and form a Nahel bond with them?

 

It's interesting, because they are supposed to be the archetype upon which their Orders are modeled. Taln in particular, according to the epigraphs, should have had one:

Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1

 

Kalak never remarks on having one, so I think it's pretty safe to assume they didn't attract any.

 

Perhaps you need Rosharan sDNA to bond one? This is at odds with Nightblood, but Nightblood may just be special.

 

Anyone have any ideas on this particular mystery?

[Aleksiel]

May be the Heralds never swore any oaths or their Oathpact with Tanavst somehow prevented them from having spren. 

 

Or noone wanted to bond with them. After all, the Heralds used to spend all the time between Desolations in Damnation, I can't imagine any spren wanting to be there with them. Or may be no spren can enter Damnation. 

 

Why would any spren want to bond with a Herald anyway, what purpose would that serve? They could already surgebind and fought the Voidbringers. 

[Moogle]

Why would any spren want to bond with a Herald anyway, what purpose would that serve? They could already surgebind and fought the Voidbringers.

 

The spren don't bond to grant Surgebinding/fight the Voidbringers (though they are now, according to Jasnah), the spren bond with people to "feed" or gain some other benefit. Besides, bonding with a Herald would increase their efficiency, which seems like a good idea to me.

 

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men.

 

Perhaps the Heralds are like the Returned, and are closer to the Cognitive?

[Terisen]

Mistborn spoilers

 

 

Perhaps it's a bit like Vin and the mists of Preservation.  She couldn't burn them until she wasn't wearing the spiked earring.

 

 

There might be something similar going on with the Heralds.  Not hemalurgy, per se, but something that drives the spren away that gives them their other abilities.

[Aleksiel]

The spren don't bond to grant Surgebinding/fight the Voidbringers (though they are now, according to Jasnah), the spren bond with people to "feed" or gain some other benefit. Besides, bonding with a Herald would increase their efficiency, which seems like a good idea to me.

 

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men.

 

Perhaps the Heralds are like the Returned, and are closer to the Cognitive?

 

Mmm, I wouldn't say the reason spren bond is canon yet. Wouldn't the Heralds being closer to the Cognitive make them easier to bond with? Just look at the Parshendi - they seem close to Shadesmar and bond spren easily. However, I agree the Heralds probably can't bond; may be because of what Tanavast did or something else.

 

If a Herald breaking down is what allows him/her to go back to Roshar, that can be interpreted as breaking an Oath, which would result is the spren's death, so bonding a Herald would be a suicide.

 

After Eshonai bonded with the stormspren, there was one screaming spren, trying to get away from her. If that was her Blade's spren, and Pattern (or Syl, not sure) said they wouldn't live in a world with Odium's spren, then a reason for not bonding a Herald is the fact the Heralds went to Odium's dominion. No spren would willing do the same and a bond with a Herald would demand centuries in Damnation. Or no Honor/Cultivation-spren can survive in Damnation, so none attempted to bond a Herald.

[Tempus]

A few possibilities.

1. The Heralds do not have the sort of spiritual brokenness necessary to accommodate a spren bond.
2. The Heralds normal Investiture or condition resists spren or resists allowing a bond.
3. Bonding with a spren is simply worse than a bond with an honorblade, and there is no reason to have a bad weapon when you have a better one. I'll note here we really don't have a good understanding of what makes honorblades special.

[Terisen]

 

A few possibilities.

1. The Heralds do not have the sort of spiritual brokenness necessary to accommodate a spren bond.
2. The Heralds normal Investiture or condition resists spren or resists allowing a bond.
3. Bonding with a spren is simply worse than a bond with an honorblade, and there is no reason to have a bad weapon when you have a better one. I'll note here we really don't have a good understanding of what makes honorblades special.

 

 

I think we might rule out #1.  Kalak sounded pretty broken in the Prelude.

 

Kalak found himself shaking.  When had he become so weak?  "Jezrien, I can't return this time."  Kalak whispered the words, stepping up and gripping the other man's arm.  "I can't."

 

He even called Jezrien and the rest broken.

 

Almighty above, Kalak thought.  You're broken too, aren't you?  They all were.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Terisen

[Aleksiel]

I think we might rule out #1.  Kalak sounded pretty broken in the Prelude.

 

 

He even called Jezrien and the rest broken.

 

Although you're likely right, I'm not sure the brokenness is that simple. Think of Kaladin and Dalinar - they were broken and that led them to behave like members of certain Orders. 

 

The Heralds however acted the way they did from the very beginning when Tanavast first made them surgebinders, no brokenness needed (so far as we know). They were broken in the quotes you gave, but that led to breaking the Oathpact, whereas a broken potential surgebinder begins acting in a certain noble manner. The way the Heralds acted on their brokenness was the opposite of how a future KR would act on his/her brokenness.

[maxal]

After Eshonai bonded with the stormspren, there was one screaming spren, trying to get away from her. If that was her Blade's spren, and Pattern (or Syl, not sure) said they wouldn't live in a world with Odium's spren, then a reason for not bonding a Herald is the fact the Heralds went to Odium's dominion. No spren would willing do the same and a bond with a Herald would demand centuries in Damnation. Or no Honor/Cultivation-spren can survive in Damnation, so none attempted to bond a Herald.

 

How could it be her blade's spren? The blade's spens are dead: they cannot leave their shard's form nor can they form coherent thoughts. Brandon mentioned how hard it would be to bring one back to life so I seriously doubt Eshonai could have managed that "miracle" without even "trying".  I have always thought it was a real spren and it ran away because of the stormspren. It may come back, providing Eshonai gets rid of the other one, which I believe will happen in the next book.

 

I wonder why would a Herald need a spren bond? They already have powers, they don't need a spren to have access to surgebinding, so it defies the purpose.

[Aleksiel]

How could it be her blade's spren? The blade's spens are dead: they cannot leave their shard's form nor can they form coherent thoughts. Brandon mentioned how hard it would be to bring one back to life so I seriously doubt Eshonai could have managed that "miracle" without even "trying".  I have always thought it was a real spren and it ran away because of the stormspren. It may come back, providing Eshonai gets rid of the other one, which I believe will happen in the next book.

 

The dead are re-summoned from the Cognitive realm, so a dead spren will be somewhat alive in Shadesmar and we have the extreme case of being close to voidspren. Wasn't Eshonai more in Shadesmar than in the physic realm when it happened? 

[maxal]

The dead are re-summoned from the Cognitive realm, so a dead spren will be somewhat alive in Shadesmar and we have the extreme case of being close to voidspren. Wasn't Eshonai more in Shadesmar than in the physic realm when it happened? 

 

Hmmm I don't know honestly... In my memory, she was just in Parshendi land. Why would she be in Shadesmar? The only ones having this power are Jasnah and Shallan.... Even if Eshonai turns out to be a Radiant, it is pretty safe to assume she won't be an Elsecaller or a Lightweaver.

 

The dead spren still have some conscience in Shadesmar? Do we have evidence for this? The only WoB I recalled reading on the subject made it quite hard (if not impossible) for such a spren to ever come back to life.

[Aleksiel]

Hmmm I don't know honestly... In my memory, she was just in Parshendi land. Why would she be in Shadesmar? The only ones having this power are Jasnah and Shallan.... Even if Eshonai turns out to be a Radiant, it is pretty safe to assume she won't be an Elsecaller or a Lightweaver.

 

The dead spren still have some conscience in Shadesmar? Do we have evidence for this? The only WoB I recalled reading on the subject made it quite hard (if not impossible) for such a spren to ever come back to life.

 

I'd hazard it doesn't take much of a consciousness to try to run away from voidspren. Unfortunately, I can't find the quote, so I can't support the part about her being somehow in the Cognitive realm when it happened.

 

The Parshendi seem to have some connection to the Cognitive realm and she did meet the Stormfather before transforming. After that, she hears on several occasions a screaming voice. I might and it might not belong to the dead spren. If Parshedni minds are partly in Shadesmar, then I see no reason for her not to hear the dead spren screaming in fear/pain from the closeness of a voidspren. If Parshedni minds aren't in Shademar, then it's something else.

 

I'm not going for a solid theory here, just speculating on the various possibilities.

[maxal]

I'd hazard it doesn't take much of a consciousness to try to run away from voidspren. Unfortunately, I can't find the quote, so I can't support the part about her being somehow in the Cognitive realm when it happened.

 

The Parshendi seem to have some connection to the Cognitive realm and she did meet the Stormfather before transforming. After that, she hears on several occasions a screaming voice. I might and it might not belong to the dead spren. If Parshedni minds are partly in Shadesmar, then I see no reason for her not to hear the dead spren screaming in fear/pain from the closeness of a voidspren. If Parshedni minds aren't in Shademar, then it's something else.

 

I'm not going for a solid theory here, just speculating on the various possibilities.

 

Stormfather has been known to appear to proto-radiants during highstorm... He did appeared to Kaladin when he was forced to weather a highstorm while tied to a post.

 

As for hearing her dead spren screaming, she would need to have a bond with a live one... Proto-radiants do not hear the shardblades screaming until they solidify their bond, meaning they must have spoken the first oath, at least. Before that, when the spren is just around and unbonded, the only feeling proto-radiants have in an uneasiness around shardblades. We saw it with Kal, Renarin and Dalinar. All three had some unease around the blades, but the screaming did not start until they bonded.

 

I do not know about Parshendi minds behind partly in Shadesmar... Do we have evidence? I would think the sprens are dead or nearly dead and they do not have much more conscience in Shadesmar than they do in the real world. If they were conscious, then they would be able to interact with other sprens, no?

[Aleksiel]

Stormfather has been known to appear to proto-radiants during highstorm... He did appeared to Kaladin when he was forced to weather a highstorm while tied to a post.

 

As for hearing her dead spren screaming, she would need to have a bond with a live one... Proto-radiants do not hear the shardblades screaming until they solidify their bond, meaning they must have spoken the first oath, at least. Before that, when the spren is just around and unbonded, the only feeling proto-radiants have in an uneasiness around shardblades. We saw it with Kal, Renarin and Dalinar. All three had some unease around the blades, but the screaming did not start until they bonded.

 

I do not know about Parshendi minds behind partly in Shadesmar... Do we have evidence? I would think the sprens are dead or nearly dead and they do not have much more conscience in Shadesmar than they do in the real world. If they were conscious, then they would be able to interact with other sprens, no?

 

The rhythms they speak to and the fact physical distance doesn't change them is one thing to support their minds being in Shadesmar. They bond with spren, but it's not a Nahel bond. We don't know much, but taking a different form (bonding a certain spren) does influence their way of thinking. Those two things make me think Parshendi minds are partly in the Cognitive realm. 

 

The Stormfather has indeed showed himself to surgebinders and he is in the Cognitive realm. The exact nature of the place the surgebinders and Eshonai has seen him remains unknown. The Parshendi speak of the spren betrayal, so they were somehow closer to them than humans were. 

 

The closeness of a voidspren could have awakened to some extent a dead Nahel-bond spren, making it scream in horror. As I said, I don't think it takes much of a consciousnesses to do that. A Voidbringer with a bonded Blade, who is to say what we can expect? Why wouldn't it scream and try to run away? Do only surgebinders hear dead spren screams? Not info to be certain about any of these.

 

If you think this isn't the case, then I agree to disagree.

[maxal]

The rhythms they speak to and the fact physical distance doesn't change them is one thing to support their minds being in Shadesmar. They bond with spren, but it's not a Nahel bond. We don't know much, but taking a different form (bonding a certain spren) does influence their way of thinking. Those two things make me think Parshendi minds are partly in the Cognitive realm. 

 

The Stormfather has indeed showed himself to surgebinders and he is in the Cognitive realm. The exact nature of the place the surgebinders and Eshonai has seen him remains unknown. The Parshendi speak of the spren betrayal, so they were somehow closer to them than humans were. 

 

The closeness of a voidspren could have awakened to some extent a dead Nahel-bond spren, making it scream in horror. As I said, I don't think it takes much of a consciousnesses to do that. A Voidbringer with a bonded Blade, who is to say what we can expect? Why wouldn't it scream and try to run away? Do only surgebinders hear dead spren screams? Not info to be certain about any of these.

 

If you think this isn't the case, then I agree to disagree.

 

Nah I actually don't disagree. I just never saw it this way. I never saw Eshonai's bond with the stormspren as equivalent to the nahel bond. I thus concluded she couldn't hear the dead spren's scream. The only thing however I do not remember correctly is if she were holding her shardblade at the time she heard the scream... I was under the impression she wasn't. I should go look into my book, but I am too lazy right now to do so

 

I agree we saw a spren trying to runaway. However, we do not have evidence this spren was the one inhabited in her sword. I have always figured it was another spren. It's been pretty much heavily foreshadowed Eshonai will be a Radiant: she must therefore have a spren. It is unlikely it is the one in her shardblade. I would be highly disappointing if it turned out this way.

 

I fact, the more I think of it, the more impossible it is for the comet-like spren to be the one from her shardblade..... To be able to return to its spren form, the dead spren would need new oaths. I am pretty sure Eshonai never said any oath. In fact, according to Brandon, her kind is not even supposed to be able to form nahel bond. I think we can only conclude it was another spren, one ready to form a nahel bond and for some reason Eshonai defies the rule providing Parshendi to become Radiant.

 

Beginning of Sight.

 

Honestly, I am slightly annoyed by the Szeth and the Eshonai cases. They currently are not Radiants, worst they are bad guys. True, there are circumstances, but still. One is a ruthless killers who justify his actions on an oath he swore (as if, as a person he did not possess enough judgement to decide if someone has to be killed or not: he has to be told), the other one bonded with an evil entity and perpetuate genocide among her people for it.  It annoys me to know they most certainly are Radiants simply because they are scheduled to have their own flashback book................... Because honestly, if not for this, I would never never never take these two for KR material. Eshonai, maybe, but Szeth? Really? Because he follows a law to orders him to massacre people? Really? Really? He can really get a pardon for all he has done and join their ranks? It really works this way?

 

Ending of Sight.

[Aleksiel]

Nah I actually don't disagree. I just never saw it this way. I never saw Eshonai's bond with the stormspren as equivalent to the nahel bond. I thus concluded she couldn't hear the dead spren's scream. The only thing however I do not remember correctly is if she were holding her shardblade at the time she heard the scream... I was under the impression she wasn't. I should go look into my book, but I am too lazy right now to do so

 

I agree we saw a spren trying to runaway. However, we do not have evidence this spren was the one inhabited in her sword. I have always figured it was another spren. It's been pretty much heavily foreshadowed Eshonai will be a Radiant: she must therefore have a spren. It is unlikely it is the one in her shardblade. I would be highly disappointing if it turned out this way.

 

I fact, the more I think of it, the more impossible it is for the comet-like spren to be the one from her shardblade..... To be able to return to its spren form, the dead spren would need new oaths. I am pretty sure Eshonai never said any oath. In fact, according to Brandon, her kind is not even supposed to be able to form nahel bond. I think we can only conclude it was another spren, one ready to form a nahel bond and for some reason Eshonai defies the rule providing Parshendi to become Radiant.

 

She indeed hears screaming without holding the Blade and here kicks in the theory of the Parshendi mind being partly in Shadesmar, where her spren is a little alive and screams occasionally because it's trapped so close to voidspren and Patter or Syl said they can't coexist. Though I admit this part is very speculative. It's not canon if the screams and the said spren are connected at all.

 

I haven't given it much thought about the running away spren being other then the bonded one. I'm pretty there are WoB if a proto-surgebinder doesn't swear any oaths, the bond doesn't form and the spren continues searching for someone else. Eshonai hasn't sworn any oaths, so there's no reason for any spren to stick around unable to escape. 

[maxal]

She indeed hears screaming without holding the Blade and here kicks in the theory of the Parshendi mind being partly in Shadesmar, where her spren is a little alive and screams occasionally because it's trapped so close to voidspren and Patter or Syl said they can't coexist. Though I admit this part is very speculative. It's not canon if the screams and the said spren are connected at all.

 

I haven't given it much thought about the running away spren being other then the bonded one. I'm pretty there are WoB if a proto-surgebinder doesn't swear any oaths, the bond doesn't form and the spren continues searching for someone else. Eshonai hasn't sworn any oaths, so there's no reason for any spren to stick around unable to escape. 

 

Not exactly true. Syl was with Kal a long time before he said his first oath. He was talking to her, interacting with her weeks before. He thought she was just some weird wind spren and it is not until Teft made the connection he started realizing what she was. Maybe I remember this wrong, but it seemed to me a spren can be with a proto-radiant a long time before oaths are even spoken. Syl did tell Kal she had started following him while he was fighting in Amaram's army. She was patient. It could Eshonai's spren is acting the same way if indeed it is a spren. It is trying to bond, but the voidbringer thing chased it away. It may still come back.

 

I sincerely doubt it is related to her shardblade. I just cannot see those being able to manifest themselves other than through the sword itself unless they somehow manage to re-kinked a relationship with their current shard holder and thus gain sufficient awareness to trigger Radiants oaths. I think it would need a very strong relationship between dead spren blade and bond holder for this to happened. The bond holder would probably need to spend a lot of time talking to it, soothing it, slowly bringing it back to conscience enough to receive oaths and there is still the matter of this part that is missing (according to WoB). I would also believe (this is just me speculating) such a blade would, at first, start to act erratically, unlike other shardblades. It would not respond well to commands or it would come up without the appropriate one or it would remain when dismissed or it would materialized before the 10 heartbeats and so on. We also know Radiants appear to gain shardblade after a certain number of oaths. The dead spren would probably need its holder to say more than one oath to really come back to life. Just the first would not do. It may be the holder needs to say all five of them. Not to mention they need to be compatible....

 

Bottom line, it is just not canon if it happened to Eshonai.

[Aleksiel]

.....

 

How do you explain the said spren didn't just run away then? The Nahel-bond goes both ways and unbonded KR spren could leave the proto-surgebinder, but Eshonai's couldn't.

[maxal]

How do you explain the said spren didn't just run away then? The Nahel-bond goes both ways and unbonded KR spren could leave the proto-surgebinder, but Eshonai's couldn't.

 

I am not sure I follow you here.... We are not sure if the spren left or no. It seems like it did, it looked like it was scared away, but I don't see why it can't come back... As for Eshonai.... Are you saying she should be able to leave her potential spren? She does not even know she has one if indeed it is one... Are you talking about the stormspren maybe? I guess this is different. Proto-surgebinder cannot really leave their potential spren, but they can refuse to say the oaths which would eventually chase the spren away or so I guess.

[Aleksiel]

I am not sure I follow you here.... We are not sure if the spren left or no. It seems like it did, it looked like it was scared away, but I don't see why it can't come back... As for Eshonai.... Are you saying she should be able to leave her potential spren? She does not even know she has one if indeed it is one... Are you talking about the stormspren maybe? I guess this is different. Proto-surgebinder cannot really leave their potential spren, but they can refuse to say the oaths which would eventually chase the spren away or so I guess.

 

I meant the nahel-bond spren can leave before the surgebinder swear any oaths. Well, I think the screaming spren tried to escape without any success, but I can't find the exact quote, so I can't say whether you are right or not.

[maxal]

I meant the nahel-bond spren can leave before the surgebinder swear any oaths. Well, I think the screaming spren tried to escape without any success, but I can't find the exact quote, so I can't say whether you are right or not.

 

Oh now I understand what you mean.... Then I guess the stormspren is holding it up somehow? Why though I cannot say. Let me go get my book... this will require me to actively move from my very comfortable chair

[maxal]

OK got it.

 

It says:

 

"That rhythm! It sounded like... like her own voice yelling at her. Screaming in pain. What was that? She shook her head, and found that she had reflexively pulled her hand to her chest in anxiety. When she opened it, the cometlike spen shot out".

 

A little before this, Eshonai talks of all the new rhythms stormform has brought her when she suddenly hear this particular one. When I read this, apart from words "cometlike spren", I am unsure if we really are talking about a spren at all... It feels like the voice she is hearing screaming is herself. Good old Eshonai being trapped within her own body, watching in pure horror the atrocities the stormspren is forcing her to do, unable to stop herself.

 

Another one:

 

"No. That was the screaming voice. How had she spent weeks in this form and not noticed?"

 

Another one:

 

"That voice deep within Eshonai still screamed. Even when she didn't attune the old Rhythm of Peace. She kept herself busy to quiet it, walking the perfectly circular plateau just outside of Narak, the one where her soldiers often practiced".

 

So what I gather if that even after the "cometlike spren" left, she still hears the voice, which I now think may very well be her own self. If it weren't for word "spren", I would never think any was involved. No mention of her blade, none at all. Based on this, I am tempter to say she feels trap within herself, but she managed to retain enough conscience to know, deep within, what she does is right, hence the screaming. She may or may not have had a spren following her, but it looked like it was scared away. I do not read it as if the spren could not leave, I read it as if it did leave. The voice is, I believe none spren related.

[Aleksiel]

....

 

Thanks for finding it!

 

She doesn't mention Blade, true. Had she even summoned it in her own PoV? I need to re-read those chapters.

Her own consciousness taking the form of a cometlike spren? I'm not sure if that's possible and minds look like flames in Shadesmar. Since she didn't recognize it, it's not the spren of any of her previous forms. 

[maxal]

Thanks for finding it!

 

She doesn't mention Blade, true. Had she even summoned it in her own PoV? I need to re-read those chapters.

Her own consciousness taking the form of a cometlike spren? I'm not sure if that's possible and minds look like flames in Shadesmar. Since she didn't recognize it, it's not the spren of any of her previous forms. 

 

I took the quotes in two different chapters. No mention of the blade whatsoever. In fact, I don't think we ever see Eshonai talking about her shardblade, at all. I would seriously doubt the cometlike spren is related to that blade. As for the screaming, it did not seem as if it were shardblade related. It really felt as if it was Eshonai own voice being overwhelmed by the stormspren.

 

Could be I am wrong too, we never know.

 

I don't know if consciousness can take the form of a spren, but she does questions her own actions a few more times after the cometlike spren disappeared so if it were related to the loss of her conscience, than we would have those future questioning....

 

Still, I maintain my idea it really was a nahel type of spren who thought Eshonai, despite being a Parshendi, was interesting, until she bonded the stormspren. It would still bring out the question as to why a spren would spring interest in a Parshendi when those are forbidden to become Radiants.... Also, I do not think she had reached a breaking point before taking on the stormform so what would a spren doing with her? If the stormform repeals them, then it wouldn't have come after, it had to have come before so why? This triggers the whole question as to what makes a proto-radiant. You need to be broken, but do you need to be broken before or after a spren takes interest in you? Does it matter? Was really broken while fighting with Amaram or was it the bridge run that did it? Or is it there are layers of brokenness? And how to explain Shallan who had Pattern as a child? Or even Renarin for that matter.... What are we supposed to look for in proto-radiant? Brokenness or strong first attributes? Can Eshonai's first attribute be so strong a spren overcome the fact she is Parshendi?

 

Gee, the more we talk, the more I have questions.

[Sasukerinnegan]

The answer is simple. The heralds violate the First Ideal by their very existence. Life before death - The heralds live even after death....... They can't really die. Journey before destination - they were created for the ultimate destruction of Odium presumably they were created out of necessity....... I don't think they existed in pre desolation Roshar...... They are the pillars of the oath pact ....... Their presence on Roshar causes the desolations in the first place....... To them destination is everything...... They were given the honor blades so that the ideals do not prove to be a hindrance to their work. Strength before weakness - again not true for the heralds. The extreme torture of the Heralds causes them to return from Damnation (Braize??) and reignite the desolation even after they are expected to lead the armies of Roshar...... So u could say, strength after weakness Also remember one of the death chants...... The death is my life, the journey has ended, the strength is my weakness....... I think it's referring to one of the Heralds maybe Taln describing the moment when he transfers his "herald ness" and his powers to pseudo 'Taln'........... Remember what the mad man says ........ The Gift. Not his. Never his Now his.......... I believe he means Taln's Gift or "heraldness" which was never intended to be mine was forced upon me by Taln............ Think I'm going off topic..... Sorry