(Spoiler) The Catch-22 of SA

[snote]

Okay, this is only an abstract thought at the moment and a simple realization that I would like input on. So, thank you for taking the time to read/reply to my non-sense.

 

Alright, during the events of WoR we find out that the Everstorm is caused by Parshendi soldiers being forced to take on Storm Form. The reason the Storm Form was ordered to be used was because of the humans taking a more offensive and aggressive stance. The reason they took a more aggressive stance was because the peace treaty talks broke down. The reason that broke down was because Eshonai took on Storm Form which made her more hateful and less peaceful herself. The reason for this was because she took on the risk of the new form her sister had researched, which was researched because of the war. The war was started because of the death of King Gavilar. Who was apparently assassinated by the Parshendi in hopes it would prevent his plan to return the old gods. The reason he wanted to return the old gods is because he was seemingly having the same visions Dalinar is now. Which in those visions, he was warned of the coming desolation and the Everstorm. 

The reason I repeat all this, which most of you likely know. Is because if you trace the steps backwards, it becomes clear. If the Almighty or Stormfather hadn't pressed the visions on the Kholin family. They never would have walked blindly into the steps that cause the Everstorm in the first place. They would have forgone their wanderlust and vengeance (most likely, though we will need Dalinar and Eshonai's books to understand exactly what caused their meeting.) and never pushed over the domino that brings about the next Desolation. It is pure speculation that they wouldn't cause one at all. What isn't speculation, is that if the numbers don't appear in Dalinar's room, with his already heightened suspicion from the visions. He doesn't form his expedition and doesn't force the Parshendi's hand to act aggressively themselves. 

I don't know if these points are already out there or if I am missing something. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[maxal she/her]

I am not sure Galivar got the same vision as Dalinar... Is that canon? Did I miss proof of this?

 

I was more under the impression he worked with the Sons of Honor and thought the prospect of a Desolation was appealing since it would bring back the Heralds. Personally, I am not entirely sure Galivar was such a great man. The only foresight we got of him are from his own family who loved him. I am not sure of impartial Dalinar nor Jasnah are when talking about Galivar. Dalinar for one, spent most of his life hating his brother and wanting him dead. When he finally comes around, his brother gets assassinated. Drama. The one thing Dalinar wished to happen happened but only once he gave up for it. Now he feels overly guilty about it.

 

I tend to fall within the "Galivar was not a nice person" camp. Dalinar was a horrible person, once, but he grew out of it. I am not sure the same could be said about Galivar. He seemed like a good fella because he followed the Ways of Kings, but I do not think we know nearly enough. I would not be surprised to find out dead corpses within Galivar Kohlin's closet, just as I suspect there are quite a few within Dalinar's.

[Moogle]

One of the biggest issue with the chain of events is Eshonai taking on stormform instead of her sister.

 

Her logic? "She's more important!"

 

Uh, except for the part where Eshonai is the one doing peace talks. Why did she have to be the one to take on stormform, rather than a random soldier they picked out?

 

The entire situation was silly, and the entire peace talks subplot was really annoying and strangely convenient for Dalinar's peace of mind. He was worried about attacking the Parshendi outright, so Eshonai shows up claiming that the Parshendi will attack until one side is dead which gets rid of all of Dalinar's misgivings and makes it a-okay to commit genocide.

 

And yeah, the visions do seem to be the thing that started the Everstorm - but I suspect it would not have stopped the Desolation coming if the Stormfather hadn't started giving them out.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal she/her]

One of the biggest issue with the chain of events is Eshonai taking on stormform instead of her sister.

 

Her logic? "She's more important!"

 

Uh, except for the part where Eshonai is the one doing peace talks. Why did she have to be the one to take on stormform, rather than a random soldier they picked out?

 

The entire situation was silly, and the entire peace talks subplot was really annoying and strangely convenient for Dalinar's peace of mind. He was worried about attacking the Parshendi outright, so Eshonai shows up claiming that the Parshendi will attack until one side is dead.

 

True enough. Eshonai was at least as important as her sister: she was her people's last shardbearer! It was indeed very strange she was deemed unimportant enough to take stormform whereas her sister was so important she could not be risked...... Bad call Parshendi.

 

Re-true enough. It felt like a plot device to give Dalinar benediction to attack at full strength. It would have been a much better plot if the meeting had been a trap instead. At the time, I was more or less expecting it to be one. I was slightly deceived it ended up this quickly.

[Shaggai]

One of the biggest issue with the chain of events is Eshonai taking on stormform instead of her sister.

 

Her logic? "She's more important!"

 

Uh, except for the part where Eshonai is the one doing peace talks. Why did she have to be the one to take on stormform, rather than a random soldier they picked out?

 

The entire situation was silly, and the entire peace talks subplot was really annoying and strangely convenient for Dalinar's peace of mind. He was worried about attacking the Parshendi outright, so Eshonai shows up claiming that the Parshendi will attack until one side is dead which gets rid of all of Dalinar's misgivings and makes it a-okay to commit genocide.

 

And yeah, the visions do seem to be the thing that started the Everstorm - but I suspect it would not have stopped the Desolation coming if the Stormfather hadn't started giving them out.

I think Eshonai just wanted to protect her sister, as opposed to actually thinking her sister was more important.

[jefftucker0525]

Plus, with the whole Eshonai taking Stormform first, she actually wasnt. In one of Eshonai's chapters she and her sister had a conversation that was something along the lines ofEshonai: blaw blaw blaw Her sister: blaw blaw blaw  Eshonai: oh youve already been in Stormform havent you? Her sister: Smile. So I think its safe to say her sister is a coniving bitch that really just needed someone more convincing to sell the whole Stormform thing, so she went back to scholar form and told her sister knowing full well that Eshonai's general stance and attitude about things would drive her to take on Stromform and become a driving force to initiate every Parshendi into it.

[snote]

I am not sure Galivar got the same vision as Dalinar... Is that canon? Did I miss proof of this?

 

I was more under the impression he worked with the Sons of Honor and thought the prospect of a Desolation was appealing since it would bring back the Heralds. Personally, I am not entirely sure Galivar was such a great man. The only foresight we got of him are from his own family who loved him. I am not sure of impartial Dalinar nor Jasnah are when talking about Galivar. Dalinar for one, spent most of his life hating his brother and wanting him dead. When he finally comes around, his brother gets assassinated. Drama. The one thing Dalinar wished to happen happened but only once he gave up for it. Now he feels overly guilty about it.

 

I tend to fall within the "Galivar was not a nice person" camp. Dalinar was a horrible person, once, but he grew out of it. I am not sure the same could be said about Galivar. He seemed like a good fella because he followed the Ways of Kings, but I do not think we know nearly enough. I would not be surprised to find out dead corpses within Galivar Kohlin's closet, just as I suspect there are quite a few within Dalinar's.

I don't know if you're asking if Gavilar had visions at all or if he had the same visions as Dalinar. The former is definitely true as Amaram mentions it, the latter is just speculation. I do agree that Gavilar isn't the bee's knees. I think it will be more and more obvious that he and Amaram are both wanting to bring about a Desolation for not better reason than to shake hands with a Herald or something equally as selfish. I honestly think that Gavilar, having visions, made the same mistake that Dalinar did. That when he heard the Almighty say, "Unite them." he put his own personal spin on it and gathered the princedoms instead of the Surgebinders that were emerging as I believe was intended.

[kaellok he/him]

 

And yeah, the visions do seem to be the thing that started the Everstorm - but I suspect it would not have stopped the Desolation coming if the Stormfather hadn't started giving them out.

Desolation isn't the same thing as the Everstorm.  The visions may have increased the rate of the Everstorm occurring (like jefftucker said, Eshonai's sister and her assistant had already changed to Stormform), but we have no real reason to think that the Everstorm is the same as a Desolation; after all, it's something that's very new.  Desolation's start-point is tied to the Heralds, according to WoB (at the very least, asking if Heralds return when they 'break' is a question on the right track, and if Heralds stay on Roshar for too long after one Desolation ends, then another one will begin.)

[Aleksiel]

It does seem ironic, as if the efforts to stop the return of the Parshendi gods was what triggered the Everstorm, but we  know from what Jasnah said that Everstorm isn't how the typical Desolation had began and the Stormfather says

 

 

IT IS A NEW THING, BUT OLD OF DESIGN.

 

It seems Gavilar had the same visions or at least they contained the same information as those Dalinar had:

 

 

“Everstorm,” Graves said. ....

“And that is?”

“The Diagram is vague,” Graves said. “We only knew the term because of old Gavilar’s visions. The Diagram says this will probably return the Voidbringers, though.

 

What I find most interesting is that Diagram T wasn't absolutely sure the Everstorm would return the voidbringers and didn't predict them to be Parshmen. As brilliant as Jasnah is, I'm surprised she discovered something so essential that Diagram T has missed.

 

May be it's not Diagram T who missed something.

 

edit:However, Amaram didn't seem to know the term and wasn't expecting the Everstorm:

 

 

The reports from Dalinar’s army indicate that Voidbringers were not only spotted, but fought. Red eyes, ancient powers. They have apparently unleashed a new storm upon this world.

 

so may be Gavilar didn't share everything with him.

 

Also, Tanavast knew about the Everstorm, but didn't find it important enough to warn Dalinar about the Parshmen. It's seems unreasonable, he must have known. He never showed Dalinar any Voidbringers. Overall, the visions aren't as useful as I'd expect. The only explanation I can think of is that some pact between him and Odium prevented Tanavast from sharing more.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Aleksiel

[kari-no-sugata]

From what I understand, as soon as Taln returned the Everstorm and a Desolation was guaranteed to happen sooner or later. I think Brandon might have indicated that the real Taln has returned, though just not exactly when and whether we've really seen him or not. I think it's possible that he returned 6-7 years ago and just hasn't been in a state to come out into the open... or that he returned very recently but that the spren could somehow sense that he was "due" and started preparing (can't remember all the WoBs on this)

 

So basically: Taln's return (or imminent return) set all sorts of forces into motion. The world as a whole is trending towards Desolation. There's a lot of detail and there will be individual tipping points for some things but it was all going to happen sooner or later.

 

Personally, I think its quite likely that Galivar was seeing the same visions Dalinar has been seeing. It's the simplest explanation I can think of. He changes quite a lot towards the end and my reading is that he was become less Alethi-like (or at least, modern Alethi), more religious and more Radiant-like. There's almost certainly some things he got wrong though (like Dalinar has) and among those was confiding in Amaran and the Parshendi.

 

 

PS Here's a random thought: one of the Heralds found Taln, who was basically a gibbering wreck after 4500 years of torture. Feeling guilty, he went to the Nightwatcher to get Taln cured and his curse was to become Taln ^-^

[Andrew C]

Self-fulfilling prophecies strike me as Odium through and through.

 

Remember, Honor was always bad at seeing the future, while Odium is much better at it.

 

 

As for Dalinar's visions: Tavanast told the Stormfather to deliver these visions but designed them before his death. We do not know when he died, it may have been (and likely was) before the Heirocracy, in which case he may have assumed the Parshendi being Voidbringers was public knowledge.

 

 

For Eshonai - I think she underestimated the amount stormform would change her mind. I believe she had too much faith in her ability to make the right decision after trying Stormform.

 

As for Gavilar - we do not know what constraints Odium and his spren were under prior to Gavilar falling under the influence of The Way of Kings. I believe Eshonai was right that Gavilar's actions would have brought back Odium's spren, but I do not believe Gavilar knew or believed this.

[snote]

It does seem ironic, as if the efforts to stop the return of the Parshendi gods was what triggered the Everstorm, but we  know from what Jasnah said that Everstorm isn't how the typical Desolation had began and the Stormfather says

 

 

It seems Gavilar had the same visions or at least they contained the same information as those Dalinar had:

 

 

What I find most interesting is that Diagram T wasn't absolutely sure the Everstorm would return the voidbringers and didn't predict them to be Parshmen. As brilliant as Jasnah is, I'm surprised she discovered something so essential that Diagram T has missed.

 

May be it's not Diagram T who missed something.

 

edit:However, Amaram didn't seem to know the term and wasn't expecting the Everstorm:

 

 

so may be Gavilar didn't share everything with him.

 

Also, Tanavast knew about the Everstorm, but didn't find it important enough to warn Dalinar about the Parshmen. It's seems unreasonable, he must have known. He never showed Dalinar any Voidbringers. Overall, the visions aren't as useful as I'd expect. The only explanation I can think of is that some pact between him and Odium prevented Tanavast from sharing more.

Thank you for finding those quotes. I had a hard time finding text because I only have the audio-books. Also, thanks for correcting my stating it was Amaram that mentioned Gavilar's visions when it was in fact Graves. I just remembered it being said. I think you and I are in agreement with our interpretations of the events leading up to the Everstorm. That it was helped along by prophecy and poor decisions. I think, as was mentioned, that fate would have created the events that lead to its inception without the way they happened in the book. I just feel that if they had never been mentioned to Gavilar or Dalinar the way they were. It may have been much later in time. Maybe even after this Desolation. Which would definitely aid the humans in their fight against the enemy.

I have also started thinking that the Bondsmiths from the time of the Rereance made the High Storm. During one of the chapter headings it says something like, " (Bondsmith person whose name I don't remember) tells us that he found a strategy to deal with the Voidbringers. The exact nature of which was specific to the abilities of the Bondsmiths. He was too rushed to give detail at the time." I can't seem to find a single vision or history mentioned in either book that says the High Storms existed in the shadow days. I think the Aharietiam is the day it happened. If the Windrunners ability to control wind was used to aid this creation process. It might explain why the Herald Jezrian was called the Stormfather. I would assume the Bondsmith Herald would get that honor but who knows. People are weird.

Not to mention it was implemented in Storm Seat which is how it got its name. It was abandoned after the storm kept cycling through there with it being lower than sea level. The chasms worked as channels for the water just as we see in the story's current time. So no one could live there and it was abandoned. It was probably before the days of Storm Wardens so if you live in a place that will kill you during a high storm and you don't know when they are coming, it is a good idea to gtfo.

As for how the Surgebindings were powered without the High Storm, it says in TWoK that they made Euratheru where they did, so that it/they could be close to Honor. Which makes me think he was physically on Roshar before he was shattered. It could just be a metaphor for being close to heaven and the sky like the Tower of Babel. That may even be his physical self held inside the High Storm. That he is one of the walking beings we see when Kaladin and Shallan are trapped in the chasm. I don't know if the other is Cultivation or Odium but neither would surprise me. Anyways, any thoughts, discussion, or evidence for or against would be appreciated.

Edited June 17, 2014 by snote

[name_here]

While we have no explicit statement that Highstorms were present during the Shadowdays, their presence is implied by the visions. The Midnight Essence vision village was constructed where a ridge would provide shelter from the Highstorms, and we have reasonable confirmation that the Dawncities, also protected by natural formations, were major population centers in the era. Additionally, the ecology of Roshar without Highstorms would be almost unrecognizable, but Dalinar never comments on it. While he's no scholar, he would notice things like the grass not retracting. It's quite possible they've gotten a good deal more severe, but they do seem to predate the Last Desolation.

[traceria she/her]

Sorry, quotes don't work right on this computer...

 

snote, for the most part, the way you laid it out is pretty clear.  There are a couple places where things need a little fleshing out, which is why we're all here - to discuss!    That isn't to say that the events we see taking place by the end of WoR weren't at least indirectly caused by your nice list/chain, but I think there are other ways the same outcome could have been possible. .  The following are some thoughts I had.  Some have been touched on by others. 

 

1) Taking on stormform didn't directly cause the Everstorm.  They had to then decide/be ordered to bring on the Everstorm.  If the Alethi armies had been able to disrupt the Parshendi sufficiently, there's a good chance the Everstorm wouldn't have begun.  It would at least have been delayed to a later time, presuming enough Parshendi survived and could regroup (unlikely in the near future).  

 

2) I would also posit that something was going on behind the scenes with Venli.  Others have reminded us that there is a good chance that she and/or another under her had already been in stormform and that Eshonai was manipulated very handily to get her to take on that form also.  (As to timing, it's hard to say when Venli might have taken on stormform.  It could have even have been before the treaty or war with the Alethi, and she could have been waiting for such an opportunity to stir things up, who knows?!  I can't recall off hand when Eshonai said they started researching the forms.)   Having already experienced it herself, Venli would have known of the tempting aggressive and hateful feelings the form would bring with it.  Getting Eshonai to take the form would give stormform more credence in the eyes of the other Parshendi leaders, as Eshonai had a strong leadership presence and was generally very level-headed prior to taking on stormform.  I think that Eshonai, for her part, did not know what she was getting into fully.  She seemed to be suspicious of her sister, and so didn't trust Venli to take on the form but trusted herself more to be objective about it.  Little did she know just how powerful it would be in crushing any thoughts/feelings Eshonai might have that contradicted it.

 

3) I can't help but wonder if some of the Parshendi had an inkling of where the treaty/betrayal/assassination/war might take them.  Venli is an example of a Parshendi who is a little shady.  What's to say some other Parshendi didn't want to enter into a treaty for the express purpose of breaking it, giving the Alethi cause to war with them, then giving the Parshendi cause to take on more aggressive forms and 'awaken the old gods'?  Just as there are many factions across Roshar supposedly on the side of Honor, so there could be factions Eshonai was not privy to among the Parshendi on the side of Odium.  We only get her perspective, and therefore, her belief about the intentions of the other Parshendi.  Odium could have already been at work corrupting a few in the hopes to bring things to a head and bring back powerful and dangerous forms among the Parshendi.  For this reason, I don't think the event would necessarily have been avoidable even if Gavilar hadn't gotten involved.  If someone on the Odium/Parshendi side of things was already trying to find an excuse to go down the path of destruction, they might have ended up with the Everstorm arriving even without Gavilar, or Dalinar after him, becoming involved.  It's much easier so sew chaos and disorder than the opposite.

[name_here]

It's worth pointing out that Galivar must have started recieving the visions for some reason. If the Desolation wouldn't have happened without him getting them, then they wouldn't have been triggered in the first place. The Diagram also says "The Desolation needs no usher", and the actual Diagram seems pretty highly accurate from what we can confirm, so I'm strongly inclined to believe it would have happened eventually somehow.

 

For one thing, I don't think Stormform wouldn't have been attempted without the war. The Parshendi were apparently looking for new forms as it was, so they'd have found Stormform eventually. I can see how it would play out in peacetime: Venli would come to the leadership and say she's rediscovered an ancient form and would like to try it, there would be a big debate about its risks, and then Eshonai would stand up and volunteer to test it. She'd go out into the Highstorm, get forcibly transformed, and come back to tell everyone it's perfectly safe and the new form is pretty awesome. There wouldn't be a mass transformation without the war, but a steadily growing percentage would try stormform and stay in it permanently, eventually growing numerous enough to trigger the Everstorm.

 

Incidentally, I suspect Eshonai was the first to take stormform (it's not what you'd call subtle) but Venli had rediscovered scholarform and shifted into that.

 

“Scholarform shown for patience and thought.

Beware its ambitions innate.
Though study and diligence bring the reward,
Loss of innocence may be one's fate.

”—69th stanza

That certainly sounds like a warning that scholarform has a strong tendancy to research things best left alone, and it probably has a close physical resembalence to nimbleform. There's no way Venli could have hidden new carapace and glowing red eyes for the entire gap between Highstorms, but she apparently did know more about stormform than she was willing to admit and went ahead with it anyway. Maybe she got bribed by an Unmade with an offer of knowledge about the other ancient forms.

 

 

 

Uh, except for the part where Eshonai is the one doing peace talks. Why did she have to be the one to take on stormform, rather than a random soldier they picked out?

 

Importance isn't the only reason she was the one to do it. Even the standard forms have a strong influence on the minds of the Parshendi who take them, but Eshonai has practiced controlling their effects so she can fight in workform and focus on the big picture in mateform. She'd be much more able to resist any potentially hazardous emotional effects and give a reliable evaluation of the dangers of stormform than some random soldier, and I'm almost certain that the leadership would have rejected the experiment outright if she wasn't the one testing it. Unfortunately, stormform proved far more dangerous than expected.

[Moogle]

Importance isn't the only reason she was the one to do it. Even the standard forms have a strong influence on the minds of the Parshendi who take them, but Eshonai has practiced controlling their effects so she can fight in workform and focus on the big picture in mateform. She'd be much more able to resist any potentially hazardous emotional effects and give a reliable evaluation of the dangers of stormform than some random soldier, and I'm almost certain that the leadership would have rejected the experiment outright if she wasn't the one testing it. Unfortunately, stormform proved far more dangerous than expected.

 

Eshonai was the only person objecting to the experiment to test stormform, actually. Every other Parshendi leader was pushing for it to happen. And, after she agreed to let the experiment happen, she was the one who brought up the suggestion that she be the one to take on the form. The leadership of the Parshendi was clearly quite clearly willing to let Venli do it before Eshonai brought it up.

 

Also, wouldn't you want someone with very little control, so the emotional effects are more obvious to outside observers? And if you're worried about the reliability of their testimony, just wait until the next highstorm and have them shift back to a form without any hidden dangers, like nimbleform. Actually, why only do one person? Shouldn't you get 2+ people to test it? One weak willed, one strong willed?

 

I'm still not convinced that Eshonai becoming taking on stormform was anything but stupidity by her, or else something demanded by the plot so that the peace talks couldn't go through. I am dissatisfied by that subplot.