The involuntary nature of Renarin's visions

[kari-no-sugata]

I started this as a reply in another thread but figured it'd be better in its own thread...

 

If we want to go truly tragic, I can take it further: Let's say that the visions are being hijacked and Odium is manipulating him. Kaladin didn't have to die at all. In fact, by killing Kaladin, Renarin has furthered Odium's goals. I've said before that the involuntary nature of Renarin's visions gives me pause. It seems so much more unwilling than all the other kinds of surgebinding that we've seen. So, I'll use that to say that these visions have been twisted by Odium, who is using Renarin as a pawn and turning his allies against Renarin as he does so.

In a sense we can use our ignorance of what's really going on to come up with all sorts of interesting possibilities for discussion and fan-fics

Thinking about "the involuntary nature of Renarin's visions", I've not seen much discussion about it. One interesting question would be "does Renarin have any reason to want this to continue?" and if not then "why hasn't his spren helped him solve it?" Since Renarin winces when first touching his Shardblade, we know that he's had a spren bond strong enough for that for at least most of WoR. He's also been able to talk with his spren, though we don't know how long for.

So... either his spren doesn't know how to stop it (memory not recovered much yet perhaps? simply doesn't know?), his spren isn't willing to tell Renarin how to stop it, they've tried to do something about it but it didn't work, Renarin doesn't want to stop it, Renarin wants to stop it but hasn't discussed it... or something else.

It could also be possible that for a long time Renarin had no idea he was doing it and his spren never told him, and then with the events near the end of WoR he realises what's been going on and after discussing things with his spren he now has an idea about what to do but isn't yet sure if it'll work.

 

So what actually causes it...? Time for some speculation...

 

We've seen Dalinar and Kaladin both having special visions and similar during highstorms on a regular basis as well, so Radiants having unusual reactions during highstorms by itself is not that odd. However, Renarin's reaction is definitely particularly unusual.

 

If we assume that this effect is directly related to his Surges then one possibility would be some kind of (accidental) self-hypnosis using the Illumination Surge (though it could be a combination of his two Surges as well) and it has only occurred during highstorms so far simply because there's naturally a lot of magical energy floating around then - maybe Renarin has not yet learned to breathe in Stormlight and doing so could enable him to come up with these visions at any time.

 

Or maybe they can only ever happen during highstorms - would be a good way to limit the ability from being too hax (from story-telling point of view).

 

I'm not quite sure why but Renarin's visions reminds me a bit of Shallan when drawing - she almost seems to be in some kind of trance and she's come up with what's possibly past/present visions at least during drawing sessions (of Shalash and the sailors). There's also a vague reference to having "dreams that became real" as a child. Maybe it's possible that she could get similar visions to Renarin too but has been able to avoid it somehow? Maybe it's a simple as having something to concentrate strongly on - most people would hole up and relax during highstorms but Shallan would probably spend the time drawing, doing research or similar. Until the end, nobody saw Renarin drawing the countdowns so it's not like these visions can strike him suddenly at any time (specifically unlike Dalinar's visions and probably Kaladin's), so maybe they mostly occurred when he was relaxing and alone? Maybe the times they didn't occur was when he was concentrating on something else for enough of the highstorm?

 

So maybe the solution to avoiding being taken over by the visions is to concentrate strongly on other things? I think it would fit in well with what he needs to do in general - I think he needs to find something to focus on, something he can excel at, something he can be proud of.

 

I'm aware that the scenario I've painted out above doesn't seem to work terribly well with Renarin's last vision in WoR - since he's around people and has things to do. Maybe the realisation that his visions were really coming true sent him into shock... and so visions could come through again.

 

[maxal]

On my side, I have always assumed he did not control the visions because he did not control his surges. I have always assumed he would gain more control with time. I have also assumed he was not willing to share nor talk with his spren for a long time, hence his quite slow progress with surgebinding. As for stormlight, I have assumed he can draw it and he knows its purpose as he has healed his vision. He is not be proficient with it just yet, but he knows the basic.

 

I know, there are a lot of "I assumed"

[11thorderknight]

Maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention, but I don't remember any descriptions at all of Renarin's visions, or whether they're voluntary or not. We also don't have any info to link them to highstorms - in fact, there is a scene in Way of Kings where Dalinar is racing to get indoors before a highstorm hits and is forced to shelter in a public place with some soldiers, where Renarin (and Adolin maybe? I forget) have to keep him restrained. Implies pretty strongly that Renarin doesn't lose control during the highstorms. 

[Kogiopsis]

I actually asked Brandon what caused Renarin's visions at a signing back in March and he was, predictably enough, cagey about it - all he would tell us is what Feather already mentioned, that they're involuntary.

 

That said, as far as their original cause, I see two options - one, that they're a Truthwatcher power (would make sense, given the name and the combination of Illumination and Progression - visions could be progressing one's sight?  it's a linguistic stretch but work with me here) or two, that they're something sinister.  We do know that Honor wasn't very good at seeing the future, after all, and I believe Syl has said something about visions not being of Honor but of Odium; it is possible that Renarin is, already, a pawn.  Personally, I doubt it; our third Shard, Cultivation, is also known to be good at seeing the future, and it seems unlikely that Odium would give humans warning of the Everstorm, unless he's playing a particularly complex long game.

 

Assuming they're a Truthwatcher thing - I do like the points you've outlined above quite a lot.  (The Shallan correlation in particular; I noted her sketching Yalb as significant when I read it but didn't connect it to Renarin at all.  It would make sense, since we know that even in overlapping Surges each Order has its own particular skillset, that Shallan would have a shadow of Renarin's foresight abilities.)

 

Mechanically speaking, if they are triggered primarily in Highstorms then their onset probably has to do with exposure to a high level of Investiture, I would think?  So hypothetically Renarin could induce them by taking up Stormlight, but it would likely take massive quantities of it, making it less of a 'hack' and more of a last-ditch option.

 

That sort of leads me into why Glys hasn't helped him stop them yet.  If we assume that they aren't Odium-based, the visions can very likely be assumed to be 1) trustworthy and 2) important.  And if they cost massive amounts of Stormlight, every Highstorm is an opportunity for 'free' foresight.  Recall the amount of Stormlight required to transport people to and from Urithiru - when the city is functional and the Radiants in residence, it's clearly a resource that needs to be conserved and stored, so spending it on visions would be a risky choice and an unlikely one.  Highstorms, of course, are full of Investiture free for the taking.

 

That's the logistical side, at least.  The other aspect has to do with Renarin himself.  He assumes the visions are a symptom of his own brain betraying him; perhaps Glys couldn't convince him otherwise, even if they talked about it.  It's also worth noting that because Renarin is who he is, it's entirely possible that visions affect him more strongly than they did Truthwatchers past, so Glys might not have any idea how to stop or control their effects because it wasn't normally necessary.  Renarin's ASD, and therefore likely has problems with overstimulation; intense, threatening visions could very easily trip him up in that way.

 

I definitely think that controlling them/responding to them better will be part of his character growth in the future.  I'm not sure about close focus being a mechanism for that, though, as it's a common coping mechanism for overstimulation and honestly likely to be something he's already tried.  I like the idea of him finding something to be proud of (and that has to be part of his growth in general, to be honest); I wonder if that might actually wind up being the visions themselves?  In particular, if he can get to the point where he can get more concrete information out of them and do some visible good as a result, I think he'd be able to progress significantly.  It would make him markedly not as useless as he thinks, and for someone who's so ready to believe that his mind has failed him, exerting control over it is an important stepping stone.

 

11thorderknight:  You're right about him not having a vision at that point, but remember that we have no reason to believe Renarin had bonded Glys at that point, so he wouldn't have any Surge-related abilities.

 

apologies if this turned out a bit rambly; I have a lot of thoughts about Renarin.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Kogiopsis

[shawnhargreaves]

I've been assuming (without any real evidence) that Renarin's visions are approximately similar to Dalinar's, except that he sees the future rather than the past.  In which case they are involuntary, he knows he's in a vision (at least after he figures out what's going on) but is unable to choose to leave it or sense the real world at all until the vision ends.  If he moves or speaks in the vision, his real body does the same in the present time, which is why Dalinar is seen to thrash around and speak 'nonsense' syllables.  Renarin acts differently (scribbling on walls) but that could just be a difference between him and Dalinar rather than difference in the nature of the visions themselves.  Dalinar reacts to strange situations by running around a lot, fighting, and talking to people, while Renarin hunkers down and starts writing...

[Aleksiel]

Maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention, but I don't remember any descriptions at all of Renarin's visions, or whether they're voluntary or not. We also don't have any info to link them to highstorms - in fact, there is a scene in Way of Kings where Dalinar is racing to get indoors before a highstorm hits and is forced to shelter in a public place with some soldiers, where Renarin (and Adolin maybe? I forget) have to keep him restrained. Implies pretty strongly that Renarin doesn't lose control during the highstorms. 

 

Renarin probably didn't have a spren that far back. I think he bonded Glys during WoR, just before his vision healed.

 

I've assumed Ren's visions weren't directly linked to his surges, more a passive non-stormlight consuming ability like Shallan's Memory. It's reasonable to think he'll learn to control them over time or at least to control his own reactions during one.

[kari-no-sugata]

I actually asked Brandon what caused Renarin's visions at a signing back in March and he was, predictably enough, cagey about it - all he would tell us is what Feather already mentioned, that they're involuntary.

 

Thanks for that - I should have mentioned it in the original post

 

Assuming they're a Truthwatcher thing - I do like the points you've outlined above quite a lot.  (The Shallan correlation in particular; I noted her sketching Yalb as significant when I read it but didn't connect it to Renarin at all.  It would make sense, since we know that even in overlapping Surges each Order has its own particular skillset, that Shallan would have a shadow of Renarin's foresight abilities.)

 

Mechanically speaking, if they are triggered primarily in Highstorms then their onset probably has to do with exposure to a high level of Investiture, I would think?  So hypothetically Renarin could induce them by taking up Stormlight, but it would likely take massive quantities of it, making it less of a 'hack' and more of a last-ditch option.

 

Hmm. We don't see Renarin glowing at all which is normally a good indicator of having lots of Stormlight... but we also know that your glow doesn't show if you got a Surge feeding off it (like Shallan's illusions). Either way, I would be very surprised if Truthwatchers had the ability to foresee anything at any time, providing they had enough Stormlight - just don't see Brandon going down that path.

 

There would have to be some limitations - here's one interesting idea: that essentially these visions of the future are something the Stormfather fears/sees and you can only tap into that, not whatever you like. So it's kind of the opposite of the Tanavast recorded visions. Of course, you might as well just ask the Stormfather directly then! But more seriously, that kind of limitation seems reasonable and Renarin was effectively getting the same vision again and again it seems (or with minor variants). He was only seeing the Everstorm (or so) that I remember, and not things other people were doing (like Szeth or Sadeas).

 

Maybe in book 3 Renarin will have a new Countdown of Doom! That sure would be a depressing ability to have... though I suspect this would just be a small part of what Truthwatchers can do. Still, in the Starfalls flashback in tWoK there is the line "Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong" - maybe Harkaylain is a Truthwatcher and is good at predicting the future?

 

Maybe we can narrow down the possibilities a bit more at some point but I'm still coming up with new ideas Here's something I was thinking today...

Maybe the Illumination Surge by itself is enough to give the ability to see far off events as they happen and also recent events but little/no ability to see the future... and Illumination + Progression Surges allows you to see the future (in the sense that the Progression Surge enhances this aspect of Illumination). So far not so original but here's the interesting bit - Progression seems related to plants and growth and the crem from highstorms is basically a (somewhat) magical fertiliser. Maybe when there's a lot of crem in the air it helps seeing the future a lot!? Sounds bizarre I know...

 

If this idea is true then Lightweavers would have little/no ability to ever see the future and wouldn't ever get the involuntary actions. I don't remember any hint of Shallan having an unusual reaction during a highstorm (except seeing the Stormfather when with Kaladin). I still like my idea that Renarin could learn to avoid the involuntary aspect by concentrating or otherwise doing something - or at least, we need some kind of reason for Renarin to have been able to keep it a secret for a long time despite it being involuntary.

 

 

That sort of leads me into why Glys hasn't helped him stop them yet.  If we assume that they aren't Odium-based, the visions can very likely be assumed to be 1) trustworthy and 2) important.  And if they cost massive amounts of Stormlight, every Highstorm is an opportunity for 'free' foresight.  Recall the amount of Stormlight required to transport people to and from Urithiru - when the city is functional and the Radiants in residence, it's clearly a resource that needs to be conserved and stored, so spending it on visions would be a risky choice and an unlikely one.  Highstorms, of course, are full of Investiture free for the taking.

 

Urithru is (mostly?) above the highstorm but they must have some way to recharge gems - maybe some lower levels designed for the purpose. But yeah, resources could still easily become a problem.

 

 

That's the logistical side, at least.  The other aspect has to do with Renarin himself.  He assumes the visions are a symptom of his own brain betraying him; perhaps Glys couldn't convince him otherwise, even if they talked about it.  It's also worth noting that because Renarin is who he is, it's entirely possible that visions affect him more strongly than they did Truthwatchers past, so Glys might not have any idea how to stop or control their effects because it wasn't normally necessary.  Renarin's ASD, and therefore likely has problems with overstimulation; intense, threatening visions could very easily trip him up in that way.

 

Given how Radiant orders tend to be "birds of a feather", I could easily imagine his problems being more common among Truthwatchers... but still rare.

 

There's some suggestions that the power behind the Everstorm has built up to levels never seen before due to the long gap between usage (ie 4500 years). There could easily be other powers like that and we've seen similar things in other works by Brandon. Or it could be some force/effect that's normally spread across all Truthwatchers and since there's currently just one then Renarin is bearing it all by himself (sort of like being a lightning conductor).

 

 

I definitely think that controlling them/responding to them better will be part of his character growth in the future.  I'm not sure about close focus being a mechanism for that, though, as it's a common coping mechanism for overstimulation and honestly likely to be something he's already tried.  I like the idea of him finding something to be proud of (and that has to be part of his growth in general, to be honest); I wonder if that might actually wind up being the visions themselves?  In particular, if he can get to the point where he can get more concrete information out of them and do some visible good as a result, I think he'd be able to progress significantly.  It would make him markedly not as useless as he thinks, and for someone who's so ready to believe that his mind has failed him, exerting control over it is an important stepping stone.

 

 

From what we've seen so far, Renarin makes a good student. I also suspect he can become one of the smartest men in Alethkar, even including ardents. But is there something he can do that fits with the warmongering Alethi where he can make use of his mind? Yes - battlefield tactician/commander.

 

(This is actually an idea I had for Shallan, since it fits her personality better: Art of War. All warfare is based on deception. Know thy enemy, know thyself... etc. But this would fit better with Renarin's Surges)