The tenth Order

[11thorderknight]

So, one of the Orders did not participate in the Recreance. We don't know enough at this point to rule much in or out, but one thing that we do know is that after the Recreance, there were no more new Radiants because spren stopped making bonds. Which is understandable of them, seeing how so many of them were killed. It's possible, then, that if a single order refused to participate, their spren type would continue to make bonds. 

 

With that theory then, we can draw some conclusions.

 

1. The mystery order is not the Windrunners or Stonewards, since we see them participating in the Recreance. 

 

2. I also don't think it's any order whose spren haven't made bonds since that time, which would rule out the Lightweavers, the Elsecallers, and the Edgedancers, since we have word from all their spren that they are the first of their kind to make a bond. I also don't think it's the Truthwatchers, despite the mention of subterfuge/deception, since Ym's spren seemed fairly mindless, and Renarin's been bumbling around for a while as well, which implies a lack of guidance.

 

3. It may or may not be the Skybreakers, because we don't know anything about them, really, though they probably wouldn't go in for "great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine". However, I am SURE that the group that Nale calls skybreakers are NOT the original order in the sense of their members having spren bonds and being able to surgebind. It just doesn't make sense. The whole point is that Nale is going crazy and adhering to a corrupt version of his ideals. That, and the whole part about being convinced that surgebinding causes desolations. Now, if the true Skybreakers were still around, I doubt they would look kindly on a group of vigilantes going around under their name. Which makes me doubt that they're still around.

 

4. That leaves Dustbringers, Willshapers and Bondsmiths unaccounted for. So, which of these is not like the others? Clearly, the Bondsmiths. They had unusual spren, and they were very limited in number, to the point that the average Joe probably never saw one, or really even thought about them. Since we know that one of them was always at Urithiru, I'm guessing that their primary concern was to maintain unity among the Radiant orders, with a secondary emphasis on unity among the kingdoms. They also dealt, exclusively, with the nature of the Nahel bond. So if any order as a whole were to see past whatever information/misinformation caused the Recreance, it would be them. Since there were only three of them, it would be far easier for them to go into hiding, especially since they probably had the lowest public profile of any of the orders. 

 

My theory is that the Bondsmiths didn't abandon their oaths. Whether they instigated the Recreance, or simply failed to prevent it, I don't know. And whether there are any Bondsmiths still left (aside from Dalinar of course) I also don't know. But I would not discount the possibility, in which case, Dalinar may be getting a visit from one of them at some point in the future.

[Moogle]

3. It may or may not be the Skybreakers, because we don't know anything about them, really, though they probably wouldn't go in for "great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine". However, I am SURE that the group that Nale calls skybreakers are NOT the original order in the sense of their members having spren bonds and being able to surgebind. It just doesn't make sense. The whole point is that Nale is going crazy and adhering to a corrupt version of his ideals. That, and the whole part about being convinced that surgebinding causes desolations. Now, if the true Skybreakers were still around, I doubt they would look kindly on a group of vigilantes going around under their name. Which makes me doubt that they're still around.

 

There's this WoB which implies otherwise:

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?

A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

(source)

 

As well, Nalan was noted as being the patron of the Skybreakers. If he's still leading a group called the Skybreakers, it seems more or less likely that they were descended from the old Skybreakers. Also, given that he probably went back for his Honorblade, I think Nalan could see himself as still holding true to the Oathpact. Helaran also seemed like a swell guy, and he was a member of the Skybreakers. They don't seem like that bad of an organization overall, except the for the Surgebinder killing thing.

 

Also, if we're looking for an Order where their members aren't going to break their oaths... I nominate the Skybreakers. Szeth was willing to do horrible things to follow his personal code and follow the law. If the other Skybreakers are anything like Szeth, I doubt they'd break their oaths to the spren.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Also, Jasnah spoke with highspren, who had knowledge of previous Desolations, so likely they have survived Recreance unlike the Cryptics, who were all killed.

 

The Skybreakers today aren't the same people, of course. I'm curious how the no-surgebinding rule works for them, though. If their members truly lived up to the Order's expectations, wouldn't they attract highspren?

[Moogle]

The Skybreakers today aren't the same people, of course. I'm curious how the no-surgebinding rule works for them, though. If their members truly lived up to the Order's expectations, wouldn't they attract highspren?

 

Bonding is voluntary on the part of the spren. If Nalan believes Surgebinders bring the Desolations, he could have had a few words with the highspren of the Skybreakers during the Recreance and told them to stop bonding until the next Desolation. The highspren would probably obey a request like that.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Bonding is voluntary on the part of the spren. If Nalan believes Surgebinders bring the Desolations, he could have had a few words with the highspren of the Skybreakers during the Recreance and told them to stop bonding until the next Desolation. The highspren would probably obey a request like that.

 

How would he meet with the highspren? You are probably right, though. And even if you aren't, Nin could have probably had Nightblood consume the first approaching highspren to send them a message. 

[11thorderknight]

Wow. I'm not sure where to even start. Here's is what we've seen of the modern day skybreakers so far - they're a bunch of goons who follow Nalan around and assassinate people under the guise of "executing" them for trivial offenses. they don't really even seem to care about the pretense that much, to be honest; the guy who kills Gawx doesn't have the slightest excuse, even according to Nalan himself. We know that, even though they have access to dead Shardblades, they are not surgebinders. The "oaths" they follow, the "justice" they seek, are all corrupt versions of the original Ideals. 

 

As for Brandon's quote about Szeth being "approached by a member of one of the orders" the person who approaches him is Nalan himself, who doesn't count. Besides, Brandon was most likely trying to not confirm the fact that the character who approached him is, in fact, Nalan, leading to the convoluted wording. 

 

As for Szeth's oaths, and Truthlessness, we've had two books to demonstrate how ridiculous they were. Szeth was basically insane, and went even more insane when he realized he was lied to. My bet is that in book 3, he'll start out joining the fake skybreakers, and wind up realizing they're full of sh%t and become a real Skybreaker. (convenient that he already knows how to use Gravitation, huh?)

[Moogle]

How would he meet with the highspren? You are probably right, though. And even if you aren't, Nin could have probably had Nightblood consume the first approaching highspren to send them a message.

 

I imagine he'd talk to the spren of the Skybreakers directly through the Skybreakers. My musing is that the Skybreakers found out the same "wicked thing of eminence" during the Recreance, felt really bad, but still wouldn't break their oaths. Nalan would have met each Skybreaker, had them reveal their spren, and then talked directly to each spren and told them to not bond anyone else. Or perhaps the spren did it voluntarily when they learned that bonding was bad.

 

I'm not sure, but I think there might be something to the theory that the highspren are holding themselves back like every other spren, but when they come forward, they'll bond to each of Nalan's organization.

 

Wow. I'm not sure where to even start. Here's is what we've seen of the modern day skybreakers so far - they're a bunch of goons who follow Nalan around and assassinate people under the guise of "executing" them for trivial offenses. they don't really even seem to care about the pretense that much, to be honest; the guy who kills Gawx doesn't have the slightest excuse, even according to Nalan himself. We know that, even though they have access to dead Shardblades, they are not surgebinders. The "oaths" they follow, the "justice" they seek, are all corrupt versions of the original Ideals.

 

What makes you think the ancient Skybreakers were any better? They were in direct conflict with the Windrunners, it seems, and openly swapped allegiance to support a bunch of rebels after they won (probably?) going by the epigraphs. They seem very interested in following the letter of the law.

 

“There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

 

Does this not seem the least bit like executing people for trivial offenses that you dislike about Nalan?

I like the Skybreakers' sense of aesthetic (damnation, Nalan knows how to dress, simple stark grey eyes seems sweet, and cometspren have this great look to them) but I see no reason why their philosophy has to be appealing to any of us. Their second Ideal is "I will put the law above all else" according to WoB. Not something most of us can get behind. Many of the KR were feared (Dustbringers) - we don't have to like every order. Szeth seems like a prime example of a Skybreaker, and I dislike his way of thinking. I'm not convinced the Skybreakers held to this idea of justice that you think they do, and I'm not convinced Nalan is insane or corrupted when he still has his Honorblade.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

 Their second Ideal is "I will put the law above all else" according to WoB. 

 

I saw this in coppermind, but it doesn't seem to have a reference. Can you link a source? I want to read what I've missed.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I saw this in coppermind, but it doesn't seem to have a reference. Can you link a source? I want to read what I've missed.

 

there's this

[Aleksiel]

there's this

 

Thank you!

[11thorderknight]

 

I imagine he'd talk to the spren of the Skybreakers directly through the Skybreakers. My musing is that the Skybreakers found out the same "wicked thing of eminence" during the Recreance, felt really bad, but still wouldn't break their oaths. Nalan would have met each Skybreaker, had them reveal their spren, and then talked directly to each spren and told them to not bond anyone else. Or perhaps the spren did it voluntarily when they learned that bonding was bad.

 

I'm not sure, but I think there might be something to the theory that the highspren are holding themselves back like every other spren, but when they come forward, they'll bond to each of Nalan's organization.

 

 

What makes you think the ancient Skybreakers were any better? They were in direct conflict with the Windrunners, it seems, and openly swapped allegiance to support a bunch of rebels after they won (probably?) going by the epigraphs. They seem very interested in following the letter of the law.

 

“There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

 

Does this not seem the least bit like executing people for trivial offenses that you dislike about Nalan?

I like the Skybreakers' sense of aesthetic (damnation, Nalan knows how to dress, simple stark grey eyes seems sweet, and cometspren have this great look to them) but I see no reason why their philosophy has to be appealing to any of us. Their second Ideal is "I will put the law above all else" according to WoB. Not something most of us can get behind. Many of the KR were feared (Dustbringers) - we don't have to like every order. Szeth seems like a prime example of a Skybreaker, and I dislike his way of thinking. I'm not convinced the Skybreakers held to this idea of justice that you think they do, and I'm not convinced Nalan is insane or corrupted when he still has his Honorblade.

 

Good find on the Second Ideal quote! Seems right on. "I will put the law above all else".

 

The thing about it is that it very much depends on what you mean by "law". Who gets to set the law? Who gets to change it? Where does the authority for it come from? These are all pretty big philosophical debates, and I could easily envision the Skybreakers having internal debates about it.

 

To use a real-world example: English-speaking countries have a strong tradition of Common Law, which basically means that there are certain legal principles that underlie any laws passed by legislatures, and that these laws have to comply with. Sort of like an unwritten constitution. France and French-speaking countries, on the other hand, have a Civil Law tradition where, basically, the government sets the laws in their entirety. Which system would the Skybreakers comply with? What would they do if they moved to North Korea and had to obey Kim Jong Il's laws?

 

That's what I mean by Nalan being corrupted. It's fine to believe that the law has to ultimately guide decisions/judgements, but twisting the law to justify evil ends is in no way in keeping with the overall theme of the Radiants.

[Aleksiel]

Good find on the Second Ideal quote! Seems right on. "I will put the law above all else".

 

The thing about it is that it very much depends on what you mean by "law". Who gets to set the law? Who gets to change it? Where does the authority for it come from? These are all pretty big philosophical debates, and I could easily envision the Skybreakers having internal debates about it.

 

To use a real-world example: English-speaking countries have a strong tradition of Common Law, which basically means that there are certain legal principles that underlie any laws passed by legislatures, and that these laws have to comply with. Sort of like an unwritten constitution. France and French-speaking countries, on the other hand, have a Civil Law tradition where, basically, the government sets the laws in their entirety. Which system would the Skybreakers comply with? What would they do if they moved to North Korea and had to obey Kim Jong Il's laws?

 

That's what I mean by Nalan being corrupted. It's fine to believe that the law has to ultimately guide decisions/judgements, but twisting the law to justify evil ends is in no way in keeping with the overall theme of the Radiants.

 

I imagine a Skybreaker will follow the law in the country s/he is in. There are rules in every country that say who makes the law and changes it, I don't see a reason for a philosophical debate here.

 

Also, I can't say Nalan has been twisting the law. Lift did trespass and steal, Ym was involved in a murder. The murder being 40 years ago is irrelevant if the law doesn't declare the crime no longer prosecuted after a certain amount of years. Lift's violation was punishable by death and he got the proper forms for it. You can argue Lift being a poor child is a mitigating circumstance, however a death sentence was the legal punishment for trespassing the palace and interrupting the holy conclave in a session.

 

My issue is Nalan blended being a prosecutor, judge and executor, but it can be viewed as saving government spendings that way. Bad joke aside, I doubt most countries on Roshar have separation of powers and Nalan has probably done his research properly and knows what's within his legal powers.

[11thorderknight]

I imagine a Skybreaker will follow the law in the country s/he is in. There are rules in every country that say who makes the law and changes it, I don't see a reason for a philosophical debate here.

 

Also, I can't say Nalan has been twisting the law. Lift did trespass and steal, Ym was involved in a murder. The murder being 40 years ago is irrelevant if the law doesn't declare the crime no longer prosecuted after a certain amount of years. Lift's violation was punishable by death and he got the proper forms for it. You can argue Lift being a poor child is a mitigating circumstance, however a death sentence was the legal punishment for trespassing the palace and interrupting the holy conclave in a session.

 

My issue is Nalan blended being a prosecutor, judge and executor, but it can be viewed as saving government spendings that way. Bad joke aside, I doubt most countries on Roshar have separation of powers and Nalan has probably done his research properly and knows what's within his legal powers.

 

I guess I dont' really have much evidence to refute the notion that Nalan has been following the laws, but it's arguable. In Lift's case, even the Arbiters(?) who were "disturbed" by Lift were shocked that he was going to execute her for stealing. And in Ym's case, it sounds like he wasn't aware that he was involved in a murder, which if true would be exonerating evidence under any system of law I've ever heard of.

 

And yes, there is plenty of room for debate in the real-world examples. Unless you subscribe to the (rather outdated) idea that the King's Word is Law, it's always possible to debate the legality of any new law. In the US, laws are challenged in court all the time, all the way to the supreme court. And even the supreme court reverses previous supreme court rulings sometimes. My point is, even if you agree that all matters should be determined by the letter of the law, you can still have disagreements about what those laws ought to be, and challenge the validity of a specific law.

 

Ultimately, I just have a very hard time accepting the notion that the original Skybreakers were mindless automatons and nags. I see them more as being concerned with overall principles of justice and with hunting down truly egregious criminals.

Edited June 11, 2014 by 11thorderknight

[Moogle]

I guess I dont' really have much evidence to refute the notion that Nalan has been following the laws, but it's arguable. In Lift's case, even the Arbiters(?) who were "disturbed" by Lift were shocked that he was going to execute her for stealing. And in Ym's case, it sounds like he wasn't aware that he was involved in a murder, which if true would be exonerating evidence under any system of law I've ever heard of.

 

People being disturbed by Lift's execution order is irrelevant; the paperwork was signed, it was all very legal.

 

As to Ym: Ym was working for people he knew to be criminals. It would not be exonerating evidence at all.

 

Here's the relevant passage:

More rustling. The shadow separated itself from the darkness, resolving into a man with dark, Makabaki skin— all save for a pale crescent on his cheek. He wore black and silver, a uniform, but not one from any military that Ym recognized. Thick gloves, with stiff cuffs at the back.

“I had to look very hard,” the man said, “to discover your indiscretion.”

“I . . .” Ym stammered. “Just . . . five chips . . .”

“You have lived a clean life, since your youth as a carouser,” the man said, his voice even. “A young man of means who drank and partied away what his parents left him. That is not illegal. Murder, however, is.”

Ym sank down onto his stool. “I didn’t know. I didn’t know it would kill her.”

“Poison delivered,” the man said, stepping into the room, “in the form of a bottle of wine.”

“They told me the vintage itself was the sign!” Ym said. “That she’d know the message was from them, and that it meant she would need to pay! I was desperate for money. To eat, you see. Those on the streets are not kind . . .”

“You were an accomplice to murder,” the man said, pulling his gloves on more tightly, first one hand, then the other. He spoke with such a stark lack of emotion, he could have been conversing about the weather.

“I didn’t know . . .” Ym pled.

“You are guilty nonetheless.” The man reached his hand to the side, and a weapon formed from mist there, then fell into his hand.

 

Ym obviously knew he was working for shady people when he signed on with them to make a quick buck. I do not think the court would have much sympathy for him for not explicitly realizing the wine was poison.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

I guess I dont' really have much evidence to refute the notion that Nalan has been following the laws, but it's arguable. In Lift's case, even the Arbiters(?) who were "disturbed" by Lift were shocked that he was going to execute her for stealing. And in Ym's case, it sounds like he wasn't aware that he was involved in a murder, which if true would be exonerating evidence under any system of law I've ever heard of.

 

And yes, there is plenty of room for debate in the real-world examples. Unless you subscribe to the (rather outdated) idea that the King's Word is Law, it's always possible to debate the legality of any new law. In the US, laws are challenged in court all the time, all the way to the supreme court. And even the supreme court reverses previous supreme court rulings sometimes. My point is, even if you agree that all matters should be determined by the letter of the law, you can still have disagreements about what those laws ought to be, and challenge the validity of a specific law.

 

Ultimately, I just have a very hard time accepting the notion that the original Skybreakers were mindless automatons and nags. I see them more as being concerned with overall principles of justice and with hunting down truly egregious criminals.

 

The perception of the king's word being the law is right on spot since most countries on Roshar are monarchies. We see it fairly clear in Alethkar. 

 

“It is the punishment for slandering a highlord,” Elhokar said. “It is the law.”

“You can pardon any crime, as king,”

 

 

and so Kaladin was send to prison for a crime that should have earned him an execution. 

 

I highly doubt there are many (if any) courts on Roshar that denounce laws. We've seen none so far.

 

Moogle already answered about Ym and here's Lift's case 

 

“This is a leave of execution,” the vizier said with surprise, holding up the last sheet in the stack. “You will kill the child? For mere thievery?”

Kill? No. No!

“That, in addition to trespassing in the Prime’s palace,” Darkness said, reaching the door. “And for interrupting a holy conclave in session.”

 

 

So it wasn't just for theft and it was a legal punishment. Though I agree it wasn't right, it was lawful nonetheless. 

 

edit: spelling

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aleksiel