Bondsmith question

[Returned]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

My inner child who loves over-the-top anime fights hopes the Voidbinding variant of a Bondsmith would get Spiritual Division instead of spiritual Adhesion, and we have to call them "OathBreakers" or something instead of Bondsmiths, ripping holes between Realms rather than Merging them and similar flavor inversions.  

This is the only way I can see a Bondsmith-comparable situation arising from the Unmade. Honor is about binding in the same way Cultivation is about growth/development, Preservation is about resisting change, Ruin is about destruction, and Odium is about conflict. More influence from Odium in a Nahel bond seems to me would broadly trend towards Odium's fundamental nature-- whether or not they can work with Adhesion in any capacity, that isn't going to be their main thing, and I wouldn't expect their powers to work along that channel (even if they can accomplish similar feats or results). I also think that their powers would be different from binding the Surges, as those seem to have been organized by Honor/Cultivation (and not exactly repeated on other Shardworlds), and it's hard to see greater Surge-based power being available than what Yelig-nar grants (access to all of the powers, or at least the nine that the Fused can make use of).

The properties of the spren involved in the bond seem to be really significant, especially in terms of "greatness" (for lack of a more precise word). A lesser spren can bond with creatures, and grant power by doing so, but they don't grant Radiant-level abilities. See, for example, greatshells and Ryshadium. Greater spren can grant Radiant- or Fused-type abilities. But whether or not a Bondsmith spren is a level above even these isn't clear. There are unique, powerful spren which don't form bonds (that we know of), so we don't have a good test case. For that matter we don't even really know that the high status of the spren who have formed Bondsmiths has any effect on the types of powers they grant (would the Nightwatcher be more subject to Cultivation's nature than Honor's? We'll learn more when we see Navani explore her powers), or the degree of power (is Dalinar ultra-powerful because he's bound to an ultra-powerful spren, or is fiddling with Connection via Adhesion just amazing in itself?).

Finally, we don't know very much about the nature of the Unmade. Are they effectively spren of Odium, as the spren involved in creating Regals are? Or were they something else, like spren derived from Honor and Cultivation, which were corrupted and may still retain some of their initial natures as far as granting powers? In any case they seem permeated with Odium's essence, which (as above) is associated with conflict like Honor is associated with bonds. Can that power grant a smooth bond, or would binding them involve constant conflict between spren and mortal? I personally think that the latter is the case, based on the description of binding Yelig-nar: try to control the one who comes after.

In summary, I don't think that a bond such as the one suggested in this thread can produce a Bondsmith, or even a being with similar powers. Such a bond might produce a very powerful individual, possibly rivaling a Bondsmith, but they will be a thing apart and direct comparison is more likely to be a category error than anything else.

[Wittles he/him]

On 1/12/2023 at 0:50 PM, Returned said:

This is the only way I can see a Bondsmith-comparable situation arising from the Unmade. Honor is about binding in the same way Cultivation is about growth/development, Preservation is about resisting change, Ruin is about destruction, and Odium is about conflict. More influence from Odium in a Nahel bond seems to me would broadly trend towards Odium's fundamental nature-- whether or not they can work with Adhesion in any capacity, that isn't going to be their main thing, and I wouldn't expect their powers to work along that channel (even if they can accomplish similar feats or results). I also think that their powers would be different from binding the Surges, as those seem to have been organized by Honor/Cultivation (and not exactly repeated on other Shardworlds), and it's hard to see greater Surge-based power being available than what Yelig-nar grants (access to all of the powers, or at least the nine that the Fused can make use of).

The properties of the spren involved in the bond seem to be really significant, especially in terms of "greatness" (for lack of a more precise word). A lesser spren can bond with creatures, and grant power by doing so, but they don't grant Radiant-level abilities. See, for example, greatshells and Ryshadium. Greater spren can grant Radiant- or Fused-type abilities. But whether or not a Bondsmith spren is a level above even these isn't clear. There are unique, powerful spren which don't form bonds (that we know of), so we don't have a good test case. For that matter we don't even really know that the high status of the spren who have formed Bondsmiths has any effect on the types of powers they grant (would the Nightwatcher be more subject to Cultivation's nature than Honor's? We'll learn more when we see Navani explore her powers), or the degree of power (is Dalinar ultra-powerful because he's bound to an ultra-powerful spren, or is fiddling with Connection via Adhesion just amazing in itself?).

Finally, we don't know very much about the nature of the Unmade. Are they effectively spren of Odium, as the spren involved in creating Regals are? Or were they something else, like spren derived from Honor and Cultivation, which were corrupted and may still retain some of their initial natures as far as granting powers? In any case they seem permeated with Odium's essence, which (as above) is associated with conflict like Honor is associated with bonds. Can that power grant a smooth bond, or would binding them involve constant conflict between spren and mortal? I personally think that the latter is the case, based on the description of binding Yelig-nar: try to control the one who comes after.

In summary, I don't think that a bond such as the one suggested in this thread can produce a Bondsmith, or even a being with similar powers. Such a bond might produce a very powerful individual, possibly rivaling a Bondsmith, but they will be a thing apart and direct comparison is more likely to be a category error than anything else.

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you for clarifying

[Returned]

34 minutes ago, Witless of Shinovar said:

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you for clarifying

I think it's important to point out that these are just my musings, and they're far from proven! The fun of posting on the forums (for me) is to have lots of ideas floating back and forth with other fans who have other perspectives on the same texts. My guess is that they wouldn't, for the reasons above, but if one of the Unmade does end up producing a Bondsmith it'll just be that much more exciting of a twist for me.

I'm also very interested in the idea of a Bondsmith working with Voidlight, however they came by their Bondsmith powers. I hadn't really thought about it before this thread. There are some differences in how Surges work for Odium's forces (the Heavenly Ones' lesser agility in the skies compared to Windrunners comes to mind), especially since it seems not to run out on its own. A corrupted, deceived, or traitorous Bondsmith might be able to do some really interesting things with power that never runs dry and arbitrary limitations. Do you have any thoughts on how a Bondsmith using Voidlight might differ from what we've seen of Dalinar so far?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Returned