Bloody Tan

[DoctorWh0m]

Doesn't deal with the resurrection thing, but my personal theory is that he was a Lurcher, maybe a Sparker as well to explain how he anticipated the shot. He tapped mental speed to judge when he would fire, then pulled Lessie to the right (towards his chest, if I recall correctly) and Pulled on the bullet to make it hit true.

[Pathfinder]

I think everyone is making this overly complicated. Wax was surprised that Bloody Tan did what he did because there were no reports of him being a misting, or ferring. So Bloody Tan could have either concealed the fact, or gained a power through hemalurgy. Besides Sazed using speed in the original trilogy, we never see it being used. All it describes is Sazed running really fast to cover a lot of ground to get back to the city. So we don't know how someone tapping speed looks. Do they blur? Do they look like they are on crack? Or if they remain stationary can you even tell that they are tapping it in that moment? So who is to say that Bloody Tan wasn't accessing the speed the entire time slightly to be able to pick up on Wax firing the gun, and then more so to move her. Feruchemists can chose how much speed they access over how much time. He could have just ramped up to that point. Does anyone know if through WOB or in a book if it is stated how much time is elapsed between a feruchemist mentally deciding to access an ability and it actually happening? Because if all it takes is the thought, he could very well logically decided to do it once Wax pulls the trigger and still have plenty of time to move her in the way. Also Tan could have been a pewter thug. They move faster, and have better reaction times. And finally Bloody Tan could be as mentioned chromium luck bender. Any of those three could have worked. I still don't think he is a slider though given the bubble because Wax has caught Wayne using his bubble from the outside and stated it could be missed if a person wasn't PAYING ATTENTION. I disagree with a normal person being able to accomplish that. Someone above already wrote quite well mathematically why it wouldn't work, and there was a mythbusters episode that delved into that topic. About how far away you would have to be to theoretically dodge a bullet. I will give it to you that they were discussing sniper rifles, but I think the logic still applies. 

 

edit: also i just re-read the passage and to those that comment about the same instant, here is a quote from the book:

 

"Wax sighted down the barrel of his Sterrion. He drew the trigger until he balanced the weight of the sear right on the edge of firing, and Lessie Blinked, One. Two. Three. Wax Fired. In the same instant, Tan yanked Lessie to the right"

 

Tan could have seen Wax draw the trigger in preparation, and prepared himself with any of the above abilities, for when after the 3 blinks Wax fired. Tan wouldn't have needed to know their history to realize Wax was about to fire. 

Edited April 22, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Moogle]

Tan could have seen Wax draw the trigger in preparation, and prepared himself with any of the above abilities, for when after the 3 blinks Wax fired. Tan wouldn't have needed to know their history to realize Wax was about to fire. 

 

The delay between a human seeing something and reacting it is somewhere around 150-200 milliseconds (though it can be shorter for things like touching hot things and recoiling, I believe).

 

Tan seeing Wax fire and moving Lessie in the same instant is nothing short of humanly impossible (unless he really lucky and guessing). He would have had to have Feruchemical zinc (mental speed), Allomantic atium, Allomantic electrum, Feruchemical chromium or some other power to let him react that way. Feruchemical steel (physical speed) would in no way be sufficient, since it doesn't increase your mental perceptions.

 

Of course, he could know about Wax and Lessie's signal. But just Feruchemical steel for physical speed would not be sufficient as far as I know.

 

Also: your explanations of him being a Misting or Ferring do not explain why he's currently alive as of Shadows of Self.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

Sorry, to clarify based on the quote, this is how i see things going down:

 

"Wax sighted down the barrel of his Sterrion. He drew the trigger until he balanced the weight of the sear right on the edge of firing,(Bloody Tan seeing that Wax has draw the trigger back, thinking he is about to be shot taps speed) and Lessie Blinked, One (huuuuuuuge amount of time from sped up Bloody Tan perspective). Two. (huuuuuuuuuge amount of time from sped up Bloody Tan perspective) Three.(Bloody Tan possibly wondering why wax hasn't fired yet) Wax Fired.(ah here we go, Bloody Tan sees bullet slowly flying out of gun, time to move Lessie) In the same instant, Tan yanked Lessie to the right"

 

edit: basically I am saying Tan thinking he is about to be shot, could have reacted to the initial pulling of the trigger which would have the delay you mentioned, but still have been ahead of Lessie blinking. Wax didn't just sight and fire, he sighted, pulled it a bit, and then after the three blinks fired. 

 

2nd edit: sorry just had another thought. Is there any WOB on how zinc functions? Because in my opinion it would work differently. Yes you would be able to calculate, come to conclusions, or recognize things faster, but scientists have proven the speed of thought isn't quick as fast as we think. That the travel through the nerves would actually slow down the reaction, and in order to have a reaction speed worth anything, you would need a nerve canal(sorry blanking on the term) that is the size of a human body. So does zinc affect the entire nervous system somehow, or just the brain given the mental moniker?

Edited April 22, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Moogle]

edit: basically I am saying Tan thinking he is about to be shot, could have reacted to the initial pulling of the trigger which would have the delay you mentioned, but still have been ahead of Lessie blinking. Wax didn't just sight and fire, he sighted, pulled it a bit, and then after the three blinks fired. 

 

Oh, so you're saying he tapped mental speed, not physical speed. Yeah, I think we're on the same page then.

 

Allomantic electrum remains my favorite unexamined metal though. I almost hope Tan was using it. Being an Allomantic electrum savant would explain his feelings on gods controlling him and the like.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle

[name_here]

In feruchemy, mental speed and physical speed are separate. If he was tapping physical speed, he wouldn't be able to get the timing right, and I'm not sure just mental speed would do it. Bullets move very quickly; I could buy him reacting fast enough to dodge with just mental speed, but not fast enough to drag someone else into the line of fire. Allomantic atium would give him a good bit more lead time and more precise information, and Atium burners generally take the most efficient possible action to accomplish something.

 

However, since he doesn't have Atium, he could have instead used both forms of speed.

Edited April 22, 2014 by name_here

[Pathfinder]

I don't know, I feel on some level you would have to be able to comprehend moving at speed for it to be of any use at all. Otherwise Sazed would have tripped over himself countless times running back to the city to save Vin. Kind of like how Wax's body "strengthens" in order to handle the increased weight and not collapse in on itself. I interpret mental speed as like I said computational. So you hear a gun shot, you come to the conclusion that a gun was shot. Ah! Kind of like Sherlock next to Watson. He is able to deduce more, faster than others. But from what little I know of the human body and the article I read regarding the speed of thought, I don't think it would have the affect you both imply. But that is just my own opinion, I admittedly know very little regarding zinc and its use. Just my own interpretation so you both may have me there. 

 

edit: Ack, just realized another flaw in my thinking. Sazed was a full feruchemist, so assuming zinc works as you both posit, he could have run to save Vin by tapping BOTH steel and zinc. So that would then not be a valid example. I still feel as I do though, just need to think of a better reason lol

Edited April 22, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[name_here]

Sazed was a full feruchemist, so he had both.

[Pathfinder]

LOL you got me one minute earlier. 

[Pathfinder]

AH HA! I found it! So there is too much to write/quote but there is a spot that shows in my opinion that Sazed used only his steelminds to run, not combined with zinc. It is in the Well of Ascension, pages 210 and 211. He mentions dropping his last steelmind, while the rest of metalminds were in the pack he was carrying. Now it could be pointed out that he states he discards the less valuable/less full ones so one can assume he used and tossed a zinc band, but there is one problem in my mind with this. on the very next page (page 211), he states:

 

"It was midday; if that army had scouts, Sazed would have a very difficult time getting around it. In addition, his steelminds were empty. He wouldn't be able to run from pursuit"

 

He didn't drop steel AND zinc at the beginning of the scene, and he didn't mention that his steelminds AND zinc were empty preventing escape. In both cases he only mentions steel. The implication I take from this is that you only need steel to run. Even if it is said that maybe he had more zinc stored than steel, I would imagine he would say something to the effect of "although he still had plenty of zinc left, his steelminds were empty" or "his zinc and steelminds were empty" or "his zinc was running low and steelminds completely empty". I feel if zinc was so important in being able to use steel, Sanderson wouldn't have just left that out, especially considering how precise he typically is (though obviously he is fallible and has made mistakes, Elantris's chasm for instance)

 

Btw, sorry for the double post!

Edited April 22, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[A Joe in the Bush]

When Vin and Kelsier go Pewter Sprinting, they unconsciously know how to Place they're feet to not fall. So He might be able to do it with just Feruchemical steel.

[Tempus]

In many different shardworlds, investitures increase mental capacity to expand to fit the new abilities. This is super notable in Stormlight (Kaladin's stormlight reactions), but also in Mistborn (see above), Elantris (Raoden mentions how it affects his mental state a couple times), Nalthis (many heightenings include additional instinctive knowledge) and some other stuff.

[Left]

I really liked that Chromium theory, it seems like the one that has the least number of things wrong with it.

You might be able to use Electrum for the dodge, but I'm not sure if it would work.

[Swimmingly]

I wonder if maybe zinc works entirely differently than we think. Like, maybe instead of slowing down perception, it means that you can think of the solution to a problem the moment you think of it - not exactly intelligenc, but making you slower to come to conclusions and less leaps of intuition when storing and the opposite while tapping.

[Pathfinder]

Right, for instance it doesn't make you "smarter", but something that would have taken you 3 hours to figure out with your current level of intelligence, instead takes 10 minutes. You access your current level of intelligence over time in a shorter burst. 

[Swimmingly]

So maybe steel does perception as well as physical speed then

[Pathfinder]

Exactly, which is why I am leaning towards Bloody Tan being a steel ferring. I love this thread because it causes us to really question how these abilities (some of which we haven't even seen yet), actually function. For instance I have been giving the luck misting a lot of thought and the more I think about it, the more I am convinced he wasn't a luck misting. I could see being lucky manifesting with Wax getting sweat in his eyes, and missing, or Lessie sneezing at the wrong time moving her head into the way of the bullet, but knowing where to move Lessie for her to get hit instead of him? That strikes me as either precognition or physical speed. Brandon has stated that Marsh has the last of the atium, and personally I do not see Marsh funding Bloody Tan allomantically. So from my perspective at least, I feel it really comes down to three possibilities:

 

Steel Ferring - reacts to Wax pulling the trigger, thinking he is about to be shot, taps speed while Wax waits for Lessie to blink, thereby having the reaction time and speed to put her in the way.

 

Electrum Misting - reacts to Wax pulling the trigger, thinking he is about to be shot, burns electrum and sees just how he needs to move Lessie and when to start moving her just so she is shot instead of him.

 

Pewter Misting - reacts to Wax pulling the trigger, thinking he is about to be shot, burns pewter giving him increased agility and reflexes while Wax is waiting for Lessie to blink, giving him the speed and reaction time to move Lessie into the path of the bullet. He dies from Wax after the fact because Thug or not, bullet to the brain pan is gonna put you down lol. 

 

Obviously this is all still conjecture but that is the picture that comes to my mind at least. 

Edited April 25, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Vortaan]

So... an interesting question that no one seems to have asked. Presumably Lessie is around Wax/Wayne's level of skill, right? How did Bloody Tan not only capture her, but drag her into a basement? Yes, she's injured, but Wax doesn't worry about her running around a town full of gunmen who do not like them. Was she a metalborn? If she was, what kind, and what kind of metalborn would be able to defeat her easily? Note here that it has to be pretty easily, I don't get the impression that a ton of time passes between Wax and Lessie parting and her death. Tan had to have taken her shortly thereafter, so... how? It might help us figure out which of the possibilities is more likely. 

 

Just a note though on the pewter misting idea: we know Wax has faced Thugs before. If he expected their reaction time to be fast enough to pull off the maneuver, he wouldn't have tried the shot. The fact that he was trying again when Marasi is captured indicates to me that Allomantic pewter is just not quick enough for it.

[Swimmingly]

What if Tan has some kind of metal that let's him read minds the same way zinc and brass affect them? We know that we don't know even a half of the existing metals, and perhaps some atium alloys still exist

[Vortaan]

What if Tan has some kind of metal that let's him read minds the same way zinc and brass affect them? We know that we don't know even a half of the existing metals, and perhaps some atium alloys still exist

 

I feel like that adds more reaction time to his trick. Read the mind, see when Wax is going to shoot, move... eh... maybe. I always find psychics to be a bit overpowered in media, though, so your mileage may vary. (Correction: receiving telepaths, that is. Sending ones always seem a bit under powered...)

[el_warko]

Uggh. But killing 5 or 6 innocent people simply to get Wax where he may have gone anyways? Doesn't seem very harmonious to me. Also, it doesn't work with Harmony's idea of agency.

 

so he saved the / gave better lives to 5 or 6 orphan children.  Harmony achieved.

 

What Preservation gaveth, Ruin taketh away (and vice versa).

[Pathfinder]

So... an interesting question that no one seems to have asked. Presumably Lessie is around Wax/Wayne's level of skill, right? How did Bloody Tan not only capture her, but drag her into a basement? Yes, she's injured, but Wax doesn't worry about her running around a town full of gunmen who do not like them. Was she a metalborn? If she was, what kind, and what kind of metalborn would be able to defeat her easily? Note here that it has to be pretty easily, I don't get the impression that a ton of time passes between Wax and Lessie parting and her death. Tan had to have taken her shortly thereafter, so... how? It might help us figure out which of the possibilities is more likely. 

 

Just a note though on the pewter misting idea: we know Wax has faced Thugs before. If he expected their reaction time to be fast enough to pull off the maneuver, he wouldn't have tried the shot. The fact that he was trying again when Marasi is captured indicates to me that Allomantic pewter is just not quick enough for it.

 

I don't know, that would be interesting to find out but I feel it would have been mentioned during the Bloody Tan scene. In a life and death situation, usually you use all the resources you have at your disposal. Guns and lack of mistborns have in my opinion, somewhat leveled the playing field for those with no abilities and those that do. Before if a normal person had to go toe to toe with a thug, the likelihood of the normal person winning is very small. Now with guns, you can do massive damage and depending on the weapon skill isn't as much of a requirement (shotgun to a pewter thugs face for instance). This doesn't mean people with abilities don't have some great advantages, but a woman who really knows how to use a gun, and is skilled in the life in the Roughs, I could see surviving without an ability. One of the big things with Brandon's magic systems are limitations afterall, so I could totally see him showing examples of people with no powers at all, being able to handle themselves against magic users (hazekillers for instance). As to how Tan got her, that is all sorts of speculation. Could other men have wounded her, and Tan took advantage? Could she got lulled in a false sense of security, since they knew Tan hates to use guns, but since the moment was important to him, he was willing to use one on her and thus surprised her? Did he have the abilities we posit, and used speed, or precognition in order to disable her? The only hint we have are the bullet holes and her losing blood, which Wax makes a point to point out.

 

That is an excellent point that I completely forgot, so that crosses of pewter as a possibility. Upvote for that 

What if Tan has some kind of metal that let's him read minds the same way zinc and brass affect them? We know that we don't know even a half of the existing metals, and perhaps some atium alloys still exist

 

That is a possibility. Which leads me to another question for anyone that knows metallurgy. Lets say you make an alloy, bendalloy for instance. Is there anyway to separate the alloys out and make something else from the parts? Or maybe he used bendalloy plus another metal to make a completely different alloy that allows him to read minds. Upvote as well lol

 

so he saved the / gave better lives to 5 or 6 orphan children.  Harmony achieved.

 

What Preservation gaveth, Ruin taketh away (and vice versa).

 

I don't know, that still doesn't feel like Harmony/Sazed to me. I mean hell, Harmony made a big deal about leaving Wax's chest with all his stuff exactly where he needed it so he could be armed and fight the robbers. He acted like he was breaking his own rules doing that alone. If simply moving a chest to be in the right place at the right time is so against what he is, then killing 5 innocent people to accomplish a goal and then saving 5 orphan kids doesn't seem to fit in my mind. I could see if MAYBE the individuals were going to die anyway, but still to chose a gruesome death at the hand of Bloody Tan for them just to further his own goals? That just isn't Harmony to me.