Are Shards' levels of Investiture actually infinite?

[Spriy]

On one hand, Sazed says that their power levels are essentially infinite. However, it's strongly implied that as the bearer of two Shards, he is more powerful than any other singular Shard with only one, and that the only reason that Odium did not take up Ambition and Honor after Splintering them was because it would change his Intent. If that's the case, though, Shards' powers are finite, since two times infinity is still infinity, and therefore you could Splinter a Shard by continually draining its Investiture. Think Lashing a rock up into the air so it floats, draining Stormlight but not actually doing anything but countering gravity.

[HSuperLee]

So Sanderson seems to have gone back and forth on this. Now, one interpretation is that, as Frustration said, their power is so large that it for all practical purposes is infinite, but I've thought for a while that it could just be that all investiture they use eventually returns to them, so they never actually use it up, just make it temporarily inaccessible to themselves. Now, this does run into the issue that we've been told there is an equivalent of entropy to investiture, which has always confused me since its really not energy and doesn't act like energy, but admittedly that's where my idea gets a bit stuck.

Basically though, the common thought on this forum seems to be that they're not actually infinite, just practically so, I assume they actually are infinite, though impractically so.

[Frustration]

Shards are not infinate, however they are so large that for all practicle purposes they are.

Effectively they have 1/16 of all the power in the Cosmere.

Spoiler

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

 

[cometaryorbit]

Since putting a finite amount of Investiture into humanity imbalanced Ruin and Preservation, I think they aren't truly infinite in the mathematical sense - subtracting a finite amount wouldn't diminish infinity* - just so immensely Invested that they seem infinite for all practical purposes, compared to anything other than another Shard. (Ruin and Preservation together created an entire planet, and a fraction of Preservation's power in the Well of Ascension moved it to another orbit. Changing a planetary orbit is an absurd amount of energy. (If Ruin and Preservation actually converted Scadrial's mass from Investiture, rather than "just" assembled the planet from pre-existing asteroids, proto-planets etc., that's even more crazy.)

The power also returns when used, as @HSuperLee says, so it seems even more infinite.

*Also, Shards can be Splintered, and their Splinters are definitely not infinite & differ in quantity of Investiture - e.g. the Stormfather is the greatest Splinter of Honor.

[Wandering Shade]

There are multiple scales of infinity. I personally believe that Shards are legitimately infinite, but that the Vessel is psychologically incapable of wielding truly infinite power. As for Splinters, I think they're just smaller infinities. Does it seem like Syl will every run out of energy and die? Not to me.

[Frustration]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:07 PM, Wandering Shade said:

There are multiple scales of infinity. I personally believe that Shards are legitimately infinite, but that the Vessel is psychologically incapable of wielding truly infinite power. As for Splinters, I think they're just smaller infinities. Does it seem like Syl will every run out of energy and die? Not to me.

They can't be infinate, as there is only a finite amount of investiture in the Cosmere.

[Wandering Shade]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

They can't be infinate, as there is only a finite amount of investiture in the Cosmere.

Well that puts a hamper on my theory lol

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:43 PM, HSuperLee said:

Basically though, the common thought on this forum seems to be that they're not actually infinite, just practically so, I assume they actually are infinite, though impractically so.

I think this answer sums it up best - infinite in some way, but not able to fully utilise it. Either that or access to all the power in the Cosmere (and / or the universe beyond it). If the universe is finite then their power possibly is finite, but if the universe is infinite it may be infinite but not fully accesable to the Shards.

 

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

They can't be infinate, as there is only a finite amount of investiture in the Cosmere.

That depends - how much power is in the Spiritual Realm? How much can be extracted and how much can be added back in?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

That depends - how much power is in the Spiritual Realm? How much can be extracted and how much can be added back in?

There is a finite amount in the SR, even if it renews that is still finite.

I don't have infinate money, even though I continue to earn money I will never have infinate.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There is a finite amount in the SR, even if it renews that is still finite.

I don't have infinate money, even though I continue to earn money I will never have infinate.

With respect, how do you know the Spiritual Realm is finite? Indeed, due to the nature of time it could be one could take Investiture from the future and bring it to the past, "doubling" the amount present, and then doing so again and again. One can reach arbitrarily large numbers that way, and if Shards can perform supertasks then they could in theory take a finite amount of power and make it infinite due to the nature of supertasks. Now while that assumes the Shards can take "future" Investiture to the past in the Spiritual Realm, but it also assumes there is only a finite amount of Investiture in the Spiritual Realm as well.

We aren't talking about adding to infinity, but rather beginning with something that is infinite - I am aware of the paradoxes of infinity and the various types of infinity. If you already have something of a given cardinality then you don't need to try to build up to it.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

With respect, how do you know the Spiritual Realm is finite? Indeed, due to the nature of time it could be one could take Investiture from the future and bring it to the past, "doubling" the amount present, and then doing so again and again. One can reach arbitrarily large numbers that way, and if Shards can perform supertasks then they could in theory take a finite amount of power and make it infinite due to the nature of supertasks. Now while that assumes the Shards can take "future" Investiture to the past in the Spiritual Realm, but it also assumes there is only a finite amount of Investiture in the Spiritual Realm as well.

We aren't talking about adding to infinity, but rather beginning with something that is infinite - I am aware of the paradoxes of infinity and the various types of infinity. If you already have something of a given cardinality then you don't need to try to build up to it.

Because Brandon has said that the amount of investiture is Finite.

On 2/3/2022 at 0:15 PM, Frustration said:

Effectively they have 1/16 of all the power in the Cosmere.

  Reveal hidden contents

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Frustration

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Frustration said:

Because Brandon has said that the amount of investiture is Finite.

The Cosmere isn't the universe, the Cosmere is a star cluster.

Quote

Questioner

Is there a center to the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

There isn't a center in the cosmere... I keep calling it a dwarf galaxy but I think they decided it's a cluster, instead of a dwarf galaxy.

Overlord Jebus

Even a dwarf galaxy is still really big.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, still too big. So we had to call it a cluster. Because we only wanted like what, we came up with 50 or 100 stars? So it's a cluster. Or a really dwarf galaxy.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

The Spiritual Realm transcends space and time:

Quote

Questioner

Mistborn travels to Roshar, what does he or she use to get Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* So. *pause* I think I've talked about this before on the 17th Shard, but I'm not 100% sure and so I don't want to anything right now, not knowing what I've said. But you can look it up. You can ask Peter. Hey Peter, have I talked about someone using-- Have I ever in an interview before talked about using metals... A Mistborn travels to Roshar and uses the metals there?

Peter Ahlstrom

I think that you have said that they could do it.

Brandon Sanderson

I said it.  Okay, so the thing about the metals you have to understand is the metals are a key, the metals are not magical themselves, except for specific ones. If I've already said that I can tell you, go to Roshar and you could use the metals that are there to power your Allomancy because the difference is in your soul and you're actually drawing directly from Preservation. Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

Do you believe the Spiritual Realm is confined to that star cluster, or goes beyond it? If the Spiritual Realm encompasses the entire universe the Cosmere is a part of, and that universe is infinite, then the Spiritual Realm would be infinite.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ixthos said:

Do you believe the Spiritual Realm is confined to that star cluster, or goes beyond it? If the Spiritual Realm encompasses the entire universe the Cosmere is a part of, and that universe is infinite, then the Spiritual Realm would be infinite.

No it isn't all investiture was part of Adonalsium, and is subsequently held by the shards.

Spoiler

Questioner

I asked if there was there a pure form of Investiture that is not tied to any Shard, and you said that my question had some false premises. Can you elaborate on what I had wrong there?

Brandon Sanderson

The false premise, the main one, is that other Investiture is not pure. Investiture, by its definition, comes from a certain place. That's like saying, "Is there water that doesn't have hydrogen in it? Is there pure water without hydrogen? Can you take the hydrogen out, and make purer water?" That's the problem there. This idea that Investiture is impure because it's tied to a Shard is a false premise. That is pure Investiture.

Questioner

Is there Investiture that is not related to any Shard, then?

Brandon Sanderson

There can't be, because the Shards were what the original... it's like saying, "I've got four pieces of a cookie. Are there any pieces that didn't come from the original cookie." You just said, "There's four pieces of this cookie." What you really wanna be saying is, "Is there non-Adonalsium-origin power like Investiture in the cosmere?" Is that what you're getting at? Or are you getting at, "Is there one of the Shards that is not held by a sapient entity?" Like, you could be asking so many questions from these things that I don't know how to answer what you're looking for. So, think about those, and ask me some of those questions next time.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

And I highly doubt it's even possible to leave the cosmere, and we definatly won't see it.

Spoiler

Gallumbazos

I've been wondering if we were going to leave the cosmere star cluster and see how things are beyond that, guess it's confirmed.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Brandon Sanderson

"Tried to" is operative here.

General Reddit 2019 (Dec. 11, 2019)

 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Frustration said:

No it isn't all investiture was part of Adonalsium, and is subsequently held by the shards.

That is a misleading conclusion from that quote, as the Highstorms and Patji show. Brandon has even spoke about this, of the Shards finding sources of power they "always knew" were there and a part of them, yet only just discovered (spoilered for length)

Spoiler

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

Fun fact - that quote also says the Shards power is actually infinite - just an inaccessable infinite.

 

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And I highly doubt it's even possible to leave the cosmere, and we definatly won't see it.

That is irrelevant to this discussion, but even if it were, remember it is also very hard for Kelsier and the Heralds and Knights to leave their worlds. Being hard doesn't mean impossible.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 2/3/2022 at 10:46 AM, Spriy said:

On one hand, Sazed says that their power levels are essentially infinite. However, it's strongly implied that as the bearer of two Shards, he is more powerful than any other singular Shard with only one...

I think of it in this way: a person holding a single shard is able to access investiture, like a person opening a door or window slightly, but a person holding two shards is able to open that door/window a little bit more; ultimately, the amount of investiture is the same, but perhaps Sazed/Harmony is able to access/utilize more than a singular shard can.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

7 hours ago, Aleph-Naught said:

I think of it in this way: a person holding a single shard is able to access investiture, like a person opening a door or window slightly, but a person holding two shards is able to open that door/window a little bit more; ultimately, the amount of investiture is the same, but perhaps Sazed/Harmony is able to access/utilize more than a singular shard can.

I think this is my favorite interpretation of infinity here so far.  Maybe a more clear analogy would be a river?  holding a shard lets you dip a cup into that river.  The river is effectively infinite, the only thing that matters is the size of your cup and how much water you can scoop up at one time.  and sazed's got the double gulp