The subtle hints - Shallan's Past

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 hours ago, Bort said:

3. Shallan then kills her mother's friend... With Testament? We would assume so, but I don't recall there ever being a description of his burned out eyes, and it's only ever Shallan's mother described as being turned face down so Shallan didn't have to see the eyes.

With Soulcasting? Why would Shallan care about some stranger who fought her father?

 

1 hour ago, The 10 Fools said:

Yes that's true, but that doesn't imply anything about how this should affect them in Shadesmar or if this creates deadeyes.

It doesn't. But there is no other indication that exchange refered to that kind of exchange.

1 hour ago, The 10 Fools said:

Syl doesn't start to regress until after this point in WoR either. It is only near the end of the book with the chasm crawling and the Stormfather later stating that Kal had killed Syl did we know of the consequences for breaking your bond. 

And Pattern would care or know about that, why?

1 hour ago, The 10 Fools said:

In this scene, Pattern give us the information on what a broken bond does to a spren for the first time.

After Sylphrena acting like a dummy in the PR for a full book.

1 hour ago, The 10 Fools said:

This being that broken bonds makes  deadeyes (in Oathbringer) and that they are . Replying by saying that it's similar but different shouldn't be a reply to new information provided to you IMO. 

Unbonded spren in the PR eventually loses their cognitive abilities. That is not mental illness, which Shallan was referring to.

1 hour ago, The 10 Fools said:

This information is also provided while they are trying to investigate Talenel and become exposed to his mental state. This state is more closely related to a deadeye than say Syl's behavior when Kal first started noticing her IMO.

So if this answer is implying that Shallan knows what a broken bond does to spren it begs the question as to how she knows this prior to Pattern telling us, which i believe could be related to the truth she has most recently provided.

Well, how about she asked Pattern a few questions about the nature of the Nahel? That is sort of what people do when they start a symbiotic relationship with an extradimensional incorporal entity.

[The 10 Fools]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It doesn't. But there is no other indication that exchange refered to that kind of exchange.

And Pattern would care or know about that, why?

The indication is that a spren with a broken bond, which we now know is a deadeye, is similar to the mental state of Talenel.

We can't use the information on what happens to spren in the physical realm when a bond breaks because is hasn't happened yet since TWoK until that chapter.

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

After Sylphrena acting like a dummy in the PR for a full book.

Unbonded spren in the PR eventually loses their cognitive abilities. That is not mental illness, which Shallan was referring to.

Syl doesn't start acting like a dummy in WoR until after this scene which is around the Duel.

Being unbonded doesn't mean a broken bond, as both Syl and Pattern had diminished cognitive abilities coming over to the physical realm.

I think there is merit to this exchange because Pattern specifically says "broken bond" which we know creates deadeyes. It could be that Shallan is interpreting this as to when she first met Pattern when he had diminished cognitive abilities.

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, how about she asked Pattern a few questions about the nature of the Nahel? That is sort of what people do when they start a symbiotic relationship with an extradimensional incorporal entity.

Could you please refer to when this exchange happens in the books or is this an assumption?

To be fair I do believe that would be the best action to take when you get your own extradimensional incorporeal entity and guess the only thing from stopping you from asking them these types of questions is how they all seem to be tight-lipped on the bonds and the oaths. I wouldn't be surprised if Jasnah achieved this feat though haha.

[Bort he/him]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

With Soulcasting? Why would Shallan care about some stranger who fought her father?

Because that stranger was trying to kill her?

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And Pattern would care or know about that, why?

After Sylphrena acting like a dummy in the PR for a full book.

Unbonded spren in the PR eventually loses their cognitive abilities. That is not mental illness, which Shallan was referring to.

Well, how about she asked Pattern a few questions about the nature of the Nahel? That is sort of what people do when they start a symbiotic relationship with an extradimensional incorporal entity.

Pattern doesn't care about Sylphrena, at least, not until they traveled together in OB. Or even likely know about her until then. But Pattern does care about Testament, which is what he's been talking about since WoK, dropping hints to Shallan.

And Shallan did ask questions about the nature of the bond. You get to see a number of these conversations between them in the books. Granted, the information is not usually very forthcoming thanks to Pattern either not remembering, or claiming to not remember.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 26.1.2022 at 6:10 AM, The 10 Fools said:

The indication is that a spren with a broken bond, which we now know is a deadeye, is similar to the mental state of Talenel.

No, that is just factually wrong. Shallan still manifested the Testament-Blade. The bond is persisting. The oaths have been broken. And of course dead Blades can still be bonded. Breaking the oaths and breaking the bond itself are distinct phenomena.

On 26.1.2022 at 6:10 AM, The 10 Fools said:

We can't use the information on what happens to spren in the physical realm when a bond breaks because is hasn't happened yet since TWoK until that chapter.

Well, the Knights Radiant are not immortal. And quite a lot of them were to be found on battlefields. The conclusion to any reader that bonds must have been broken is unavoidable.

On 26.1.2022 at 6:10 AM, The 10 Fools said:

Syl doesn't start acting like a dummy in WoR until after this scene which is around the Duel.

That is just not true. She started out as a kind of stupid pseudo-windspren.

On 26.1.2022 at 6:10 AM, The 10 Fools said:

Being unbonded doesn't mean a broken bond, as both Syl and Pattern had diminished cognitive abilities coming over to the physical realm.

After breaking the bond with her previous knight at least in Sylphrena's case.

 

20 hours ago, Bort said:

Because that stranger was trying to kill her?

Sorry, not that kind of care. The kind of feeling bad of harm happening to them. There is no reason his eyes burning out would bother her.

20 hours ago, Bort said:

Pattern doesn't care about Sylphrena, at least, not until they traveled together in OB. Or even likely know about her until then. But Pattern does care about Testament, which is what he's been talking about since WoK, dropping hints to Shallan.

Yes, telling her that she will kill him. But that is not one of those hints.

20 hours ago, Bort said:

And Shallan did ask questions about the nature of the bond. You get to see a number of these conversations between them in the books. Granted, the information is not usually very forthcoming thanks to Pattern either not remembering, or claiming to not remember.

Indeed. She just knows that Pattern needs a bond to stay sapient in the Physical Realm.

[Olmund]

While I do think it's likely Shallan killed both her mother and the other Skybreaker acolyte, it's worth mentioning that Shallan is an unreliable narrator -- and when she says she killed "them" there's a chance that she counts the other's death as her fault even if he was killed by her father (because it wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been a radiant).

That said, her quotes make far more sense if she did kill both.

[Bort he/him]

So, I've been trying to work out what Shallan's 5th and final Truth could be, and it almost certainly has something to do with her mother's death, because there are still so many details we're missing from that scene.

But, as discussed in this thread and so many others, Shallan is an unreliable witness, so her memories of that night are suspect. So, my personal theory... Feel free to shoot it down.

Shallan killed her mother, but it was an accident, as she was trying to protect Shallan from the Skybreaker acolyte, who was going to kill Shallan, instead of taking Shallan away to be trained, as her mother had requested.

[Olmund]

On 2/14/2022 at 3:58 AM, Bort said:

So, I've been trying to work out what Shallan's 5th and final Truth could be, and it almost certainly has something to do with her mother's death, because there are still so many details we're missing from that scene.

Super late response, but I think that we do have all of the most important details at this point. Your theory is certainly possible, but I think it's unlikely for the following reasons:

1. By recasting Shallan's mother as a typical protective mother, the most interesting aspect of her character are erased; i.e., she was someone who was so firm in her convictions that she was willing to sacrifice her own daughter.

2. Shallan already has stated truths corresponding to killing people both knowingly (her father) and unintentionally (Testament), so yet another truth in that vein would be needlessly repetitive.

3. It's unlikely that all Lightweaver truths need to be based on a traumatic failure and they almost certainly can occur after bonding the Lightweaver's current spren -- otherwise child Shallan bonding testament makes very little sense. From the Brandon's order summary:

Spoiler

Lightweaver

I will speak my truth

Lightweaver oaths are an oddity, perhaps because their spren tend to be the oddest among all Radiant spren. Instead of speaking specific words, or even words along a certain theme, Lightweavers speak truths about themselves—things they must admit to themselves in order to progress as people. It is theorized that because Lightweavers live on the line between reality and fiction, it is important for them to be able to separate the real from the lie, and only with the proper ability to do so can they move forward.

Based on this description, Lightweaver truths are centered on progress and self-actualization, so it makes sense that they could reflect later additions to the radiant's personal narrative.

I see her final truth as something that's a slow burn/gradual realization with narrative weight -- something like "I am a leader, and I will act like one." Not exactly that, but you get the idea.

[Bort he/him]

Yeah, I pretty much convinced myself I was wrong about this one too.