Forces of the Desolations

[ulyssessword]

Two monsters that we know to be present in Desolations are Thunderclasts and Midnight Essence. They are made out of stone and smoke, respectively. I think that we will see the rest of the gems represented as well, in monsters made of metal, air, crystal, wood, fire, oil, blood, and flesh. Note that the Parshendi and Chasmfiends do not fit into this group at all.

I think that these elemental creations are the main forces of the Desolation's armies. The Voidbringers are probably the Parshendi, but having them be the elemental monsters fits as well. Having most of the forces of a Desolation hidden away, waiting to be released makes more sense to me than all of them hiding in plain sight as Parshmen and Parshendi, as there simply aren't enough of them to cause mass destruction like a Desolation is, even if they each fight with the strength of ten men.

So, what do you think? A Parshendi led army of elemental monsters, or something else?

[Zas678]

That actually sounds like a really really good idea. It makes sense that just as the Ten Heralds and their magics have certain elements associated with them, so would the Voidbringers. Perhaps the Parshendi could be the monsters made of Blood or of Flesh. And perhaps the Chasmfiend could be of Crystal?

That last one's a stretch. I honestly think Chasmfiends (in their present state at least) are just what they are- ridiculously large animals that can be hunted for food and resources. They may or may not pupate into Thunderclasts, but I don't know.

[ulyssessword]

Parshendi could be the flesh (or blood) elementals, but I doubt it. They are much more complex than Thunderclasts or Midnight Essence, present long before the Desolation begins, and seem natural. This still doesn't prevent them from being the Voidbringers, we just don't know what that term means yet.

Chasmfiends do not fit here at all, either as crystal/glass elementals, or larval Thunderclasts. Their gemheart is not crystal (which Diamonds can soulcast things into), it is a gem (which is magical). Thunderclasts are pure stone without any organic parts, which would make for a very difficult metamorphosis. I think that the Chasmfiends are completely separate from the Desolations.

[Ari]

Their gemheart is not crystal (which Diamonds can soulcast things into), it is a gem (which is magical).

It's worth pointing out that many gems are actually crystals, and iirc, some of the ones that hold stormlight are crystals, for instance garnet.

[ulyssessword]

It's worth pointing out that many gems are actually crystals, and iirc, some of the ones that hold stormlight are crystals, for instance garnet.

True, I should have said "crystal/glass/quartz" or something similar to refer to all the substances that Diamond can soulcast things into. It cannot create any of the ten gemstones, which is what I was referring to.

[Ari]

True, I should have said "crystal/glass/quartz" or something similar to refer to all the substances that Diamond can soulcast things into. It cannot create any of the ten gemstones, which is what I was referring to.

Well, yes and no. Want to know the most problematic thing?

Diamond itself is crystallized carbon, and thus if the Ars Arcanum is correct in implying the modern definition of crystals, you can use diamonds to soulcast more diamonds. Hopefully Brandon has considered this and the Ars Arcanum either doesn't mean "crystal" in the sense of any solid with a highly regular molecular structure, or that trying to soulcast things into crystals that can also soulcast is highly inefficient, or it's simply wrong.

[happyman]

Well, yes and no. Want to know the most problematic thing?

Diamond itself is crystallized carbon, and thus if the Ars Arcanum is correct in implying the modern definition of crystals, you can use diamonds to soulcast more diamonds. Hopefully Brandon has considered this and the Ars Arcanum either doesn't mean "crystal" in the sense of any solid with a highly regular molecular structure, or that trying to soulcast things into crystals that can also soulcast is highly inefficient, or it's simply wrong.

Since it's an in-world document, I wouldn't worry too much about our scientific understanding of things. After all, in our world, we can't soulcast at all.

[Telcontar]

Two monsters that we know to be present in Desolations are Thunderclasts and Midnight Essence. They are made out of stone and smoke, respectively. I think that we will see the rest of the gems represented as well, in monsters made of metal, air, crystal, wood, fire, oil, blood, and flesh. Note that the Parshendi and Chasmfiends do not fit into this group at all.

I think that these elemental creations are the main forces of the Desolation's armies. The Voidbringers are probably the Parshendi, but having them be the elemental monsters fits as well. Having most of the forces of a Desolation hidden away, waiting to be released makes more sense to me than all of them hiding in plain sight as Parshmen and Parshendi, as there simply aren't enough of them to cause mass destruction like a Desolation is, even if they each fight with the strength of ten men.

So, what do you think? A Parshendi led army of elemental monsters, or something else?

Did anyone else make the connection with the Ten Deaths?

Fighting, even this fighting against the Ten Deaths, changes a person. We can teach you so that it will not destroy you.

That's one of the Radiants speaking to Dalinar in his first in-book-vision. They were fighting against Midnight Essence. And the quote tells us that Midnight Essence is one of the Ten Deaths.

Now, this makes your theory more likely that we'll see nine other "Deaths". And following the general ten-essences-theme, probably they will be made of one those.

However I disagree with other points.

You assume Midnight Essence and thunderclasts to be present during Desolations. For thunderclasts this is true, we see them in the Prelude. As for Midnight Essence, the Desolation hadn't yet begun when Dalinar fought them. That's what the Radiants tell him.

Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, ...

That's why I would say that the Ten Deaths are not necessarily connected to the Voidbringers. Still, this doesn't exclude the possibility of the Voidbringers releasing the "Ten Deaths".

Voidbringers? These? No, this was Midnight Essence, though who released it is still a mystery

In that case thunderclasts could very well be part of them, according to your theory.

[ReaderAt2046]

Two monsters that we know to be present in Desolations are Thunderclasts and Midnight Essence. They are made out of stone and smoke, respectively. I think that we will see the rest of the gems represented as well, in monsters made of metal, air, crystal, wood, fire, oil, blood, and flesh. Note that the Parshendi and Chasmfiends do not fit into this group at all.

I think that these elemental creations are the main forces of the Desolation's armies. The Voidbringers are probably the Parshendi, but having them be the elemental monsters fits as well. Having most of the forces of a Desolation hidden away, waiting to be released makes more sense to me than all of them hiding in plain sight as Parshmen and Parshendi, as there simply aren't enough of them to cause mass destruction like a Desolation is, even if they each fight with the strength of ten men.

So, what do you think? A Parshendi led army of elemental monsters, or something else?

Several people (including me) have noted that there seems to be some connection between the Unmade and the Essences, putting the Unmade as anti-Heralds. My guess is that each Unmade can summon some form of monster connected to their element. So the 9th Unmade can summon thunderclasts, the second can summons Midnight Essence, etc. The parshendi have nothing to do with this paradigm, and are something else.

[Telcontar]

@ReaderAt2046

so, is there any thread where I can read about your ideas? that would be interesting.

As beings opposed to the Heralds, what came in my mind was the Ten Fools. I haven't given any thoughts to the Unmade yet.

Are yours complete enough for you to share them with us?

[ReaderAt2046]

@ReaderAt2046

so, is there any thread where I can read about your ideas? that would be interesting.

As beings opposed to the Heralds, what came in my mind was the Ten Fools. I haven't given any thoughts to the Unmade yet.

Are yours complete enough for you to share them with us?

Here's what I have so far: There were originally Ten Unmade, to counter the Ten Heralds. Given that one of them is named "Blightwind", it seems reasonable to guess that each Unmade is linked to a specific essence. Someone (not me) theorized that the Ten Fools are a folktale distortion of the Ten Unmade.

[Telcontar]

Ten Unmade would at least fit with the ever present "ten-essences-theme". I believe there is very few mentions of the Unmade in the book so far. A point we'll have to pay attention to.

the ten fools being a distortion of ten Unmade seems quite human to me

I'll have to think about the Unmade

[Vortaan]

It may be just me, but is this a little too neat? It just seems like if the Unmade are able to summon creatures of fire, or creatures of wind... how are people fighting them off? Without knowing the other Surges, I can't say with certainty that the KR couldn't do something, but there weren't just KR in the Desolations. Normal people fought, with primitive weapons, and were apparently successful enough to beat back creatures made of, to name a few substances: stone, fire, gas/air, and metal? Most of these things sound horrific to even attempt to combat as a normal person. Armies of them... scary. Maybe normal people are fighting the Voidbringers? I'm still trying to figure out what a normal human soldier brought to the table in any Desolation.

[hoser]

I really like this elemental concept. I would like to add a few thoughts to this brew.

There are ten Heralds, ten Unmade, ten Deaths and ten orders of Knight Radiant. All the Heralds seem to have actively fought. We have only seen two orders of the Radiants in action. The Windrunners and Stonewards both seem quite knightly (except no horses), fighting actively and apparently in concert. I wonder why we have only seen those two. I wonder if there are some surprises in the way the remaining orders discharge their duty. Maybe some orders are not as martial, studying, creating fabrials, healing, operating Oathgates and the like. Do all the orders have Shardblades and Shardplate? Are there other orders that operate in specific pairings or even groups of three orders?

Coincidentally, we only see the operations of two forms of unmade. Maybe they are the most obvious. If the blightwind were to summon wind elementals, what evidence would there be after they were fought off? Are the operations of some of the Unmade's elemental minions also more subtle and indirect?

Basic elements are animated to create the ten deaths. The animation could conceivably be done by establishing a connection to the spiritual realm for the rock or smoke. The original role of the Shardblades makes sense then. Presumably they operate by severing the connection to the spiritual realm in beings that are part spirit. Once the body is no longer linked to the spiritual realm, they cut through the material realm aspects.

Perhaps the smoking eyes and death are the effect of the dissipation of the spirit connection. Do the eyes burn because they are eyes? Because they are the only nerves that we see on the outside of the body? Are eyes or nerves special to the connection to the spiritual realm? What happens to the brains and spines of those Shardbladed?

The blades might have always worked this way, rather than being somehow corrupted by Odium. The Radiants may have just been disciplined about how they were used. What were the Radiants thinking when they handed them over, rather than hiding or destroying them? Surely they could anticipate the mayhem that ensued. Maybe they knew that there would eventually be another desolation, and the blades would be needed. So many questions ...

Voidish, voidbringers, unmade, consuming, champions of hatred? These effects must be obvious. Is it like the currupted wind in the Ways in the Wheel of Time series? Some sort of wraiths, perhaps? A diminished connection to the physical realm? Why would Odium do that to his servants? Does he hate them too? Yet the thunderclasts and midnight essences are apparently made, more substantial and formed than their inchoate elements. The damage from the midnight essences seems normal, rather than somehow weirdly enervating.

Actually, the heralds are unmade in many ways. They seem to dematerialize somehow between desolations. Their spirits, teamwork, nobility and purpose are apparently abandoned.

Sometime it seems as if the thousand odd action- and detail-packed pages were nearly empty. I know nothing.

[Dros]

I wonder why we have only seen those two.

Is it tied to the statement Honor made in Daliner's Recreance vision? Honor states something like, "They were the first, and they were also the last." On its face, it seems contradictory, unless he means they were the first to form into KR Orders and the last to lay down their plate and blades. If that is so, it seems those two Orders are special in some way.

[Telcontar]

It may be just me, but is this a little too neat? It just seems like if the Unmade are able to summon creatures of fire, or creatures of wind... how are people fighting them off? Without knowing the other Surges, I can't say with certainty that the KR couldn't do something, but there weren't just KR in the Desolations. Normal people fought, with primitive weapons, and were apparently successful enough to beat back creatures made of, to name a few substances: stone, fire, gas/air, and metal? Most of these things sound horrific to even attempt to combat as a normal person. Armies of them... scary. Maybe normal people are fighting the Voidbringers? I'm still trying to figure out what a normal human soldier brought to the table in any Desolation.

How did Dalinar fight off a smoke-beast (Midnight Essence)? I believe this answers your questions. Smoke is contained in some kind of skin. Otherwise Midnight Essence would be much harder to kill. I just assume that it would be the same with wind or fire.

[Satsuoni]

Just a couple of possibilities/suggestions on the topic (strictly IMO):

1. The Ten Fools are leaders/champions of Odium, opposites of Heralds (another possibility: Fools ARE Heralds, just called that by the opposing side or because of their quitting, and then separated by passage of time)

2. The Surgebinders use power themselves, channeling stormlight through their bodies (possibly directing it outside, but they are the source). The voidbinders are kind of opposite/cannot use Void without repercussions (see below). So they summon/create separate creatures to house the power, resulting in Ten Deaths: Thunderclasts (melee, stone), Midnight Essence (sneak attack, smoke), and others. Some other may be less stable or leave no bodies after death, or even not used on battlefield.

3. The Unmade are well, unmade, probably from humans. They are much stronger and rare. Maybe the Voidbinder that misuses (or overuses) Void becomes one, maybe it requires a willing host, or several humans. The process usually drives the result completely mad with hate and hunger, etc.

(Although the possibility exists that Ten Deaths and Unmade are one and the same. Then Yelignar probably air or soul elemental)

Just some ideas.

[ReaderAt2046]

It may be just me, but is this a little too neat? It just seems like if the Unmade are able to summon creatures of fire, or creatures of wind... how are people fighting them off? Without knowing the other Surges, I can't say with certainty that the KR couldn't do something, but there weren't just KR in the Desolations. Normal people fought, with primitive weapons, and were apparently successful enough to beat back creatures made of, to name a few substances: stone, fire, gas/air, and metal? Most of these things sound horrific to even attempt to combat as a normal person. Armies of them... scary. Maybe normal people are fighting the Voidbringers? I'm still trying to figure out what a normal human soldier brought to the table in any Desolation.

Well, we know that Midnight Essence can be killed with a fireplace poker, of all things. And the ordinary bronze and stone weapons could presumably kill the Flesh elementals, plus any ordinary races that fought for odium (parshmen/evil humans). The Blades were given primarily to kill off thunderclasts and other such. Also, sheer logic suggests that the power invested in a creature is inversely proportionate to how many can be summoned.

And for that matter, if you had enough mortals they could kill a thunderclast by smashing it to bits with sledgehammers.

Edited February 11, 2012 by ReaderAt2046

[Vortaan]

Well, we know that Midnight Essence can be killed with a fireplace poker, of all things. And the ordinary bronze and stone weapons could presumably kill the Flesh elementals, plus any ordinary races that fought for odium (parshmen/evil humans). The Blades were given primarily to kill off thunderclasts and other such. Also, sheer logic suggests that the power invested in a creature is inversely proportionate to how many can be summoned.

And for that matter, if you had enough mortals they could kill a thunderclast by smashing it to bits with sledgehammers.

Granted, and until we see how they would be formed I'm willing to suspend disbelief. However... why did nothing of any of these creatures survive as folklore? Voidbringers did, somewhat, but not creatures tied directly to something that has is a huge part of everyday life? The Soulcasting essences are used regularly... if there were a negative aspect that had been harnessed by Desolations, wouldn't some kind of warning be passed down?

[ReaderAt2046]

I think a lot of that was lost in the Sunmaking.

[Aiken Frost]

And remember how Ruin could manipulate information. Maybe something like that could have happened in Roshar.

[ReaderAt2046]

So, my guess on Desolation armies is: Parshmen and evil humans as raw infantry, the Ten Deaths filling various support roles (thunderclasts as tanks, Midnight Essence as skirmishers, possibly others as scouts or ranged troops or assassins.)