Lighteyes, Shardblades, and the Oathpact

[Argent]

I don't think this thread will be terribly spoiler-ish (at least it won't spoil any of the main events of the book), but if you don't like those, you know how to get out of here. This being said, let's go.

I have this nagging suspicion that the world of Roshar has gone terribly wrong after the last Desolation. I don't have a very clear explanation why that might be the case, so let me give you a (not necessarily logical) list of things that seem related to this:

• Winning a Shardblade may turn a darkeyes into a lighteyes. This has not been confirmed, but it hasn't been rebuked either.
• Syl, presumably a creature that has something to do with Honor himself, doesn't like Shardplates and Blades.
• Taln is described as being a darkeyes. In addition to this, Dalinar mentions that The Way of Kings has passages that indicate that during the time the book was written, the darkeyed people were the more respected faction.

All this makes me think that Shardblades (and possibly Shardplates) are either weapons of Odium, or have been corrupted by him at some point of time, possibly when the Radiants gave them up. To explain why the Heralds of the Almighty use them, I could point to the Oathpact. It is the thing that binds the Heralds to this cycle of Desolations in Roshar and torment in some form of hell. Maybe I am seeing Odium a little bit like Ruin, but it feels like he would be willing to give his enemies (Honor & the Heralds) some sort of power (Shardblades), as long as he got to torture the Heralds for, more or less, eternity. Rayse was described as a pretty clever guy after all. Maybe this is what the Oathpact says.

I am yet to get to Dalinar's visions (I am re-reading the book), so I don't know if there will be stuff there, but I'll make sure to update this thread when I get to them.

[Posaune]

Actually, we do know that the shardblades turn a darkeys into a lighteyes. In sezeth's first interlude he says

The momment he summened his blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale-almost glowing-sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

I find it interesting that his eyes only change color when he sommons his blade. I do think that the blades and plate might not be of honor. having that sort of almost insurmountable advantage over someone does not sound very honerable. But why do they call some shardblades the honorblades? are they from honor instead of odium, or are all blades from one or the other?

[Argent]

It is possible that the Shardblades are an imitation of the blades the Heralds (or the Radiants?) used. Plus, they always seemed a little Odium-ish to me, with the eyes of the victims burning when the Blade takes a life.

[CrazyRioter]

the Honorblades are the Heralds' swords. They are different then Shardblades, though we don't know how, except that unlike Shardblades they disapear when the Herald that owns them is killed.

Edited October 2, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Crimson Ether]

Syl, presumably a creature that has something to do with Honor himself, doesn't like Shardplates and Blades.

this is also not confirmed i do not believe her disliking all blades and plates i believe dalinars blade in key was one she disliked

[Argent]

I see no reason for that though. As far as we know Syl, she has only encountered two Blades - the one Kaladin won and forfeited, and the one Dalinar uses. Though, now that I think about it, she must have been close to Adolin's Blade too - but she and Kaladin never even mention it, so we can't draw conclusions here. As for the first two, I seem to recall that Syl approves of Kaladin's rejection of the Blade, much like she approves of Dalinar losing his.

[frozndevl]

I see no reason for that though. As far as we know Syl, she has only encountered two Blades - the one Kaladin won and forfeited, and the one Dalinar uses. Though, now that I think about it, she must have been close to Adolin's Blade too - but she and Kaladin never even mention it, so we can't draw conclusions here. As for the first two, I seem to recall that Syl approves of Kaladin's rejection of the Blade, much like she approves of Dalinar losing his.

From my recollection, Kaladin and Syl were near Adolin only a handful of times. The epic fight, where everyone was probably too busy to talk about the blade, the very end when Dalinar gives up his blade, and also in the market when Adolin saves the prostitute (I think). I can't remember the circumstances of the market incident, but I don't believe that Adolin summoned his blade at that time.

Putting this together, there may have either been no opportunity to comment on Adolin's (the blade wasn't summoned), everyone was too busy (helping Kaladin be a badass), or the focus was on another particular blade (Dalinar's).

Edit: Just read in another thread someone that does remember the shardblade being summoned in the market. Scratch my theory then.

Edited November 10, 2011 by frozndevl

[Crimson Ether]

ok lets look at this a bit more outside the box of what we know so far....

Towards the end of the book we had kaladin exuashted from useing his powers and he ask syl if she can do anything when she ask him to finally say the words he burst forth with incredible power....

Perhaps its true that shards were given from the heralds (for being trained and honorable one is bestowed upon you) would this perhaps make Syl dislike blades because they are not earned properly? or maybe there is another prequisat that we are not sure of yet????

(This also goes into the theory that Shallan created a blade???? Maybe the reason syl dislikes blade its cause the ones currently being used are hand me downs and they dont fit properly with everyone??? Perhaps knights created there own blades when they were anointed to be radiants?

I realize i am grasping at straws but i cannot believe syl would have a problem with ALL shards when most radiants used them.

[fiveAM]

Hi, first off, I'd like to say that I'm of the opinion that the Shardplates and blades are of Honor, and possibly became corrupted by Odium. Evidence regarding this topic is so sparse and spread out in the book that it's difficult to have any substantiated claims. But here are some interesting quotes regarding the changing of eye color and their possible tie to the state of the Shardplates/blades

This is very long and I wasn't sure if I should just create a new thread as a Theory but it IS a response to this thread so, move it if you deem it worthy. These all may contain spoilers so anyone who hasn't read the ENTIRE book, may want to look away.

First we have (from my count and memory) 3 instances of links to the Radiants of old and their eye color (the prelude mentions Jezrien's eyes but doesn't mention their color). Also note the behavior of the Shardplates.

Page 303 from the hardcover. Dalinar's vision of the 2 Radiants in the forest.

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man's hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night... The female Shardbearer turned to Dalinar. She had her helm on now, When had she put it on?(page 305) Dalinar turned to find the male Shardbearer regarding him. Where had the man's helm gone? The Shardbearer stood with his Blade resting on his armored shoulder, and he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white. Were those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight?

Page 731 from the hardcover. Dalinar's vision of the Recreance.

The Shardbearer removed his helm, exposing a handsome head with blond hair and pale skin, light as that of a man from Shinovar. He tossed the helm to the ground beside his blade. It rolled slightly as the Shardbearer made fists in his gauntlets, arms at his sides. He opened his palms wide, and the gauntlets fell free to the rocky ground. He turned, his Shardplate falling off his body-breastplate dropping free, greaves slipping off... They glowed softly in a way his own Shardblade never had, but as he dashed among them, their light started to fade... He caught up to the Radiants-they weren't walking very quickly-and grabbed one by the arm. The man turned; his skin was tan and his hair dark, like an Alethi. His eyes were of the palest blue. Unnaturally so, in fact-the irises were nearly white... The glow from within the weapons had completely vanished. The killing of that officer made others bold. Other skirmishes started, men scrambling to attack those who had Blades, hoping to get one. Eyes began to burn.

Page 1001 from the hardcover. Taln's return.

He steadied himself against the gate door, and a lock of hair moved from the side of his face, exposing his eyes. Dark brown eyes, like a man of the lower class. Those eyes were wild, dazed.

2 of the Radiants have unnaturally white eyes, seeming to 'leak Stormlight' and the irises were nearly white. The female Shardbearer simply has eyes that seemed to glow. With Sezth's eyes only turned his eyes from dark green to pale-almost glowing glowing-sapphire when he summoned his Shardblade, however for the Radiant's this unnatural glow or whiteness doesn't seem tied to a summoned Blade. The female Shardbearer summons her blade after that quote, and the Radiant in the Recreance vision has abandoned his Blade and Plate at the mention of his eyes. Although I'm not sure how Szeth's eyes factor into this (as his powers come from a different source from Kaladin's and presumably the Radiants, it seems apparent that the unnatural glowing and whiteness of the eyes come from usage of the Plates and Blades.

Now here's a bit of a wild jump, but what if the length of usage leads to more unnatural/white eyes and permanence? If we assume Szeth has wielded his Blade for a shorter time than the Radiants in the vision did, or used it less this make sense. Also in the first vision, the male Radiant has more unnatural eyes than the female Radiant's and from his actions, he may be the female superior. Later in the scene, he is the one who questions Dalinar and invites him to the Urithiru to join and he tells the female Radiant to escort the family while he goes on ahead. Although whether he ordered her or simply suggested, he obviously takes charge of the situation and makes the decisions and the female Radiant complies without question or resistance. In the Recreance vision, though on definite, it can be assumed that those Radiants have used their Blades and Plates longer since it is after a Desolation, while in the first vision, it is implied to be the beginning of one (the wife mentions the attacks are frequent in Desolations perhaps but not in her life; and the description of the whiteness in the Recreance Radiant's eyes seem more unnatural than the other Radiant's.

I know this is getting long but now onto why they were good but then were corrupted (by Odium?). Other than the obvious lack of glowing, and the glyphs on the Plates, I feel the Recreance vision is key. With "the glow from within the weapons had completely vanished" right before it says that some attacked the officer, right after it, it mentions the killing and the burning of eyes. Considering that timing (chronologically, first mention of the burning eyes) and order of descriptions, and knowing that Brandon rarely does things without reason, it seem to be that the glowing vanishing completely was the moment when the Blade was used to kill someone (unnatural use/not what they were meant for; meant to fight Voidbringers not other humans). Also, the nature of the Plates seem to change. In the first vision, the helms are very different, Dalinar not noticing when the female Radiant puts her's on and the disappearance of the male Radiant's helm (not took off, but it vanishes). This implies the helms can be summoned and banished at will from the Plates themselves (sort of like a convertable car I guess). In the Recreance vision, the Radiant physically takes his helm off and tosses it to the ground. On the other hand, his Plate seems to fall off his body simply by him flexing various muscles. Although how the Plates are taken off in Dalinar's time isn't shown, Page 371 shows how they are put on, which is meticulously piece by piece. Even if not explicit, the ease of handling Plate is definitely contrasted. This shows a possible decaying or slow corruption (not an immediate one, think WoT's madness growing in saidin).

So there's my hypotheses on the eye color changes and the status of the Shardplates/blades. It makes a lot of assumption that Brandon says things for a reason and in a reasoned specific order; but considering other, answered questions, I feel it isn't too much of a jump to think that. I know things are kind of all over and there are probably typos but there are my two pieces. Thoughts?

(side note: considering Surgebinding, it is possible that this eyes change deal stems from the usage of Surgbinding coupled with Shardbearing (remember Soulcasting (female Radiant) and Lashings are both considered Surgebinding). Szeth mention's his eyes changing as an effect of his unique Blade, but if he has not seen any other Surgebinder, he simply make that assumption. This could be confirmed with when/if Kaladin picks up a Shardblade/plate, since we have yet to see him touch one.

Edit: side note is also confirmable with Shallan summoning her Blade, which we have yet to see either. Excitement for Book 2!

Edited November 11, 2011 by fiveAM

[pmj812]

We don't know much about how blades and plates were supposed to work in the time of the Radiants.

I'm about to go way out on an Alloy of Law-inspired limb here:

From the AoL Ars Arcanum:

"(The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb)"

Now, I'm enough of a novice to have no idea whether what I'm saying here is nonsense, but...

The Dawnshards/Honor Blades disappear when the owner dies. Maybe that means their blades are "hardwritten into their spiritwebs" and are inseperable from them.

We don't know how Radiants' plate worked. We don't know if each member somehow made their own or if they recieved it.

Maybe the shardblades and plate of the Radiants were also unique, and also hardwritten into their spirits, and when the Radiants quit they cut off parts of their own souls and abandoned them.

That would make all of the Shardbearers of the modern era a bit like Kaladin with the bone armor: they're wearing and wielding cannibalized parts of dead men's souls.

And THAT would allow them to be from Honor, but also abhorrent to Syl, similar to how the bone shields were abhorrent to the Parshendi

[fiveAM]

But why would the Radiants discard a part of their souls? That part isn't explained in your little theory.

I thought Dawnshards are different from Honorblades. We don't know exactly what the Dawnshards are. I don't think it's even definite that there are multiple ones or not.

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

-From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

[CrazyRioter]

yeah the Dawnshards are different then the Honorblades, also there are multiple Dawnshards as Honor/The Almighty refers to them in the plural in Dalinar's last vision.

[pmj812]

"my little theory" would point out that abandoning their honorblades was a necessary part of renouncing the oathpact for the heralds. If the radiants were bound by their shards, then abandoning them would be the only way to quit.

[fiveAM]

The Radiant's weren't part of the Oathpact, they seem more like an Order created by the Heralds to help them fight the Voidbringers. If they are tied something, I would assume it'd be the Ideals.

Page 17, Hardcover

"They see us as divinities," Kalak whispered. "They rely upon us, Jezrien. We're all that they have."

"They have the Radiants. That will be enough"...

"Our Blades must be left. The Oathpact ends now." He lifted his sword and rammed it into the stone with the other seven....

"What do we tell the people, Jezrien?" Kalak asked. "What will they say of this day?"

"It's simple," Jezrien said, walking away. "We tell them that they finally won. It's an easy enough lie. Who knows? Maybe it will turn out to be true."

From that conversation between Jezrien and Kalak. Jezrien says that though the Oathpact ends, the Radiants will still remain, and from the looks of it, they could easily have lied to the Radiants as well, that they had finally won. So obviously the Heralds thought the Radiants would remain and didn't see any reason for them to disband. But they did, we don't know the reason why, but they did it very differently than the Heralds.

I really don't get where the idea that the Radiants put a part of their soul into their Plates comes from. The Shardblades have a security function of disappearing when let go so that somebody can't just come up and steal it. This in itself implies to me that there isn't an intimate tie between bearer and Blade. The Heralds' Honorblades on the other hand disappear when they die, and remain even if they let them go, having no need for that security system. This seems to show that the Honorblades and the Heralds are closely tied and cannot be separated, this seems more like the soul-tying thing.

Also, How the Heralds and Radiants abandoned their respective oaths or whatever are different. The Heralds sink them in the stone, abandoning them. The Radiants don't just abandon their gear, but they give it away. Why not just take them off at Urithiru and leave? It's one thing to abandon a piece of your soul, it's quite another to give them away to a complete stranger. They didn't even hand it each to one person, they just left them in front of a group of people and let them fight over it. Considering the capabilities and power of the Blades and Plate, and without a responsibility of use tied to them, they knew that there would be chaos if they just handed them out but they still did it. Can you imagine, do you really think someone would let some total stranger pick up a pat of their soul and use them to kill other people for a petty reason like greed and desire for power and simply just walk away as their own souls were killing people right behind them? It's an interesting theory, but I don't think their souls are quite tied to the Blades and Plate. Brandon doesn't have people act non-humanly, that's what so great about good character development and writing. You can't have people doing things that deny logic, at least not a group as big and pervasive as the Radiants (maybe a small random tribe cut off from the world or something, or individuals, like the Joker, "some people just want to see the world burn"). Readers have to empathize with characters and their actions, get to know them, like them or hate them, but feel that they could actually exist, or else it just considered bad writing.