Sanderson Romances

[Naerin]

(Spoilers in this post for relationship pairings throughout the Cosmere and from Aether of Night)

So, I'm wondering if anyone else has a slight issue with the general...trend for Sanderson Romances. 

Most romances in Sanderson novels fall into a very traditional archetype. Previously virginal, inexperienced women who ultimately marry the first man they fall in love with (the one counterexample I can think of is Navani and Dalinar, which I have found really refreshing and awesome). Men who are usually nobility, princes, or rulers of some kind, often with prior relationship experience. Don't get me wrong, I still love these characters, and both the men and women are, in my mind, very well-written. But it's starting to bother me a little that there aren't really any examples of positive romantic/sexual relationships outside of traditional "marriage-track" pairings (the only example I can think of is Wax and Lessie, which...did not end super well). Not just because it lacks variety, but because it indirectly perpetuates purity myths that are pretty a common trope in fantasy and pretty toxic in the real world. 

There's also a lot of arranged marriages that just seem to conveniently turn out super awesome for the characters involved. Siri and Susebron, Raoden and Sarene, Wax and Steris, Shallan and Adolin, Laral and Roshone (!), arguably Raeth and D'Naa. That's a pretty large percentage of ALL the main-character relationships in the Cosmere. And to be honest it's making me a little uncomfortable, because in the real world arranged marriages (especially between a younger woman and an older, more socially powerful man, as several of these involve) often have a lot of pretty serious problems associated with them. Again, that's not to say I think these relationships are written poorly. Quite the opposite. I absolutely love how some of these relationships are written. It's just the larger pattern that kind of bothers me. 

To be fair, I feel like there's a deliberate effort in the Stormlight archives to break away from this pattern a little. Navani and Dalinar, as I mentioned, are one of my favourite couples in the series. And there are references to other positive relationships (outside of the traditional marriage archetypes), even if we don't really "see" them in the narrative. But...Laral and Roshone were also paired up in the Stormlight Archives. And I'm sorry, but that relationship is actually pretty disturbing, since it puts a positive spin on a girl being married to a man twice her age who seems to essentially be her guardian. 

Has anyone had similar thoughts?

 

 

 

[Honorless]

On Laral and Roshone, yup, absolutely

[+Bliev]

Yes, brandon does love his arranged marriages trope. There's a great Shardcast where I think Grey talks about these relationships a lot. I highly recommend the entire episode. It's really even-handed. 

I think he's grown in his ability to write nuanced relationships as he's matured himself, and the Navani/Dalinar one is demonstrative of this. Let's see what else comes out of SA. But I have to say, I have a different feel for the Laral/Roshone marriage. I do not at aall see him framing it as "positive". I think everything we have seen demonstrates that our original squeamish read of it is spot on. Rather, I think it's less "see, everything is great" and more a testament of Laral's strength and resilience. It's more about her autonomy and story than her relationship with Roshone. People choose money and security and power all the time, and women no  less than men do. Laral made that choice and was content with it, making the best of it. I think it's another demonstration of allowing women some more nuance in their relationships. 

I read a lot of regency romance (yes, my entire personality is basically fantasy and Jane Austen fan fiction lol), and arranged marriages are common. Not in the "you MUST marry  this person or else" way, but the "marriage is a contract between families, so you owe it to your family to at least consider it." And Jane Austen's entire social commentary from that time was how few options for middle class and upper class women to have stability and freedom. I think that's what we see in SA quite a bit. 

I do look forward to the story of how Kal's parents got together though. Could be an interesting counterpoint. 

[Naerin]

Thanks, I'll definitely check out that Shardcast!

Where do you see the narrative validating our squeamishness about Laral/Roshone? All I remember is her talking about how she is content being married to the guy, and to me it seemed positioned as a way of subverting Kaladin's assumptions. Also, the question of agency is a bit tricky there. Did she "choose" to marry for money and security? Who was her guardian at that point? Because it sure seems like Roshone decided she was going to marry his son, and then later decided that she was going to marry him instead. As a girl alone (I don't seem to recall any other family or support structure being explicitly mentioned), being told to marry the lord of that village, I would argue that she can't freely consent. There is a huge power differential in addition to the huge age difference. To my mind that inherently makes the relationship disturbing, and the narrative choice to have her defend it so wholeheartedly feels very weird.

I know that this trope is common in regency romance. But nowadays I think many writers are (rightfully) approaching these dynamics more critically. In these books, EVERY arranged marriage turns out to be great. Married off to a God-King with the right to literally execute you for displeasing him? Don't worry, he's actually a super nice and innocent guy. Engaged for political reasons to someone you don't love? Well, it turns out you are actually super compatible once you get to know each other. Married to someone sight-unseen who you've literally never met (who also dies before you meet)? Just so happens he's your dream guy (and also he's still alive actually and you fall for him all over again before even learning his identity). Summoned before an emperor to have him choose from a harem of potential brides? Again, he's super nice, and you fall in love before he selects you unilaterally to be his wife (and also forcibly marries off your promiscuous competition, which is pretty messed up when you think about it).

I don't necessarily have a problem with any of these relationships on their (except Laral-Roshone). But collectively they kind of avoid dealing with any of the actual, real-world concerns and issues surrounding arranged marriage and patriarchal power structures. That's a little disappointing, given how much effort Brandon puts into realistically portraying other real-world issues like addiction and mental illness.

And I agree, I would love to see the story of how Kaladin's parents met! They seem like such an interesting match.

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, Naerin said:

Where do you see the narrative validating our squeamishness about Laral/Roshone?

No, I agree that we are supposed to see Kaladin's assumptions challenged, but not because "all is well", but because he has to let her be content with her choices, which, imho, is his real journey. He wants to protect people from themselves in the way he sees fit--sometimes he's right, but other times he's not. In that moment in OB he was trying to do that to her, and she was basically saying, "i'm not a damsel for you to save." Her character in WOK was always shades of grey--just like the Regency stuff, she knew her place and she knew that she could not interact with Kal like he wanted to because of rank. She also knew that Kal was above those other dark-eyed boys, when Kal didn't really get it. She knew when her father died how precarious her situation was, and I always interpreted her reaction to the younger Roshone's death as being a reaction to her future stability being wrested from her. I thus interpreted her marriage to the elder as a choice--under duress, sure, but one she made with clear-eyes that Kaladin couldn't possibly understand, just like he couldn't understand his father's choices either. That's the squeamishness-the transactional nature of it. Though I do agree that the age difference isn't at all harped on in the way I think it should be.

In terms of the others you mention, yes the Siri/Susebron one is the worst. THE WORST. But I do love Warbreaker, and a love story, so I let it go. I feel like the other ones are characterized with more nuance--a growing appreciation for one another, etc. And remember that Sarene and Raoden fell for one another via letter, before they met, which complicates things too.

I agree that his love stories are not always great, which is hilarious given my other love of romance, but Dalinar/Navani's relationship is kind of making up for some of it for me haha

[Use the Falchion]

I've enjoyed most of his relationships for what they are, as they usually go into the struggles of being in a relationship instead of getting into the relationship, like most media I consume focuses on. Is Sanderson perfect at this? Absolutely not! But he has gotten better with time, practice, overall life experience, and a butt-ton of beta readers!